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Originally posted by buttthrax:
The Patriot Act is cool because it makes liberals piss their pants.

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Originally posted by Fascistsmasher:
And you're a repressive, ignorant, fool, worshiping of tyranny as long as it doesn't hurt him... I'd rather be a sick bastard.

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Of course the FBI might twist a couple words and come to the false conclusion that you do want to do away with the government, but overall, people getting arrested and sentenced for things like that aren't as high as they were in Soviet Russia.

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Originally posted by Fuzzball3000:
Smasher:

You're paranoid if you still look over your shoulder four years after it happened. Also, were those 72 hours so horrible that they've ruined your life? No. Your opinions are biased by personal experience. If you had known people who had died in 9/11, then you would have been oppositley biased. I agree that giving the government power is dangerous, but in times of war, things need to be overlooked. How can we fight terrorists if we can't even control our own population?

Adorkable:

I'm not sure how to convince you that there is a terrorist threat? Maybe 9/11 was a wake-up call? Osama, Saddam, London bombings? Pretty "in-your-face." But, if you would like to live in your little fantasy world, then be my guest until you get killed by a terrorist. Hey, at least that FBI bastard won't have heard your precious phone calls.

Smasher:

If you want to overthrow the US government, then maybe you should be in a cell for longer than 72 hours. "The less, the better" in terms of government sounds like anarchy and therefore sounds like a disturbed liberal. Accidents happen. No country is perfect so saying that something should "never" happen is rarely right. It SHOULD never happen. But that's life. It does.

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...were those 72 hours so horrible that they've ruined your life?

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'm not sure how to convince you that there is a terrorist threat? Maybe 9/11 was a wake-up call? Osama, Saddam,

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Accidents happen.

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Originally posted by Fuzzball3000:
[B]Smasher:

Adorkable:

I'm not sure how to convince you that there is a terrorist threat? Maybe 9/11 was a wake-up call? Osama, Saddam, London bombings? Pretty "in-your-face." But, if you would like to live in your little fantasy world, then be my guest until you get killed by a terrorist. Hey, at least that FBI bastard won't have heard your precious phone calls.
[B]

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Originally posted by Hacker:
[URL=http: //video.go ogle.com/v ideoplay?d ocid=-6495 4627616053 41661&q=Ma rtial+Law] http:/ /video.goo gle.com/vi deoplay?do cid=-64954 6276160534 1661&q=Mar tial+Law[/URL]

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Originally posted by cynicaltobefree:
I totally agree with adorkable and fascistsmasher. Hey fuzzball thanks for being honest about your point of view. Buttthrax is a bit right too that Alex Jones' postions may be a bit hyped up, but in effect he is correct in his assumptions. If there were not so much evidence to support his claims he might just be another "nut job" but he's not.
Fuzzball, the reason your family, friends, 51% ete believe the exact opposite is because they have vested (internal) interests in believing the propaganda of the main stream media. Most people cannot interalize the size of this thing and would in fact have the same totally butt puckering fear that you felt realizing it. Sorry dude those of us in the know are sort of fucked for knowing it. Oh well.

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Originally posted by buttthrax:
Alex Jones makes a career out of fiction.

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Originally posted by Adorkable:
Funny... why have I never seen anybody who claims this actually address any of his ideas or theories?

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Originally posted by Fuzzball3000:
I don't know, man. I mean, when I first saw that video, I totally fliped. I went like insane about this conspiracy for like a couple of hours. Then I thought about it rationally and realized that he had point, but it was a little bit exagerated. So while he seems to onto something (like a conspiracy at the top-level), and I think he's a cool guy, I think he went too far when he talked about Bush causing 9/11 or working with Kerry. I mean I would concede that Bush wasn't aware enough about security dnagers before 9/11, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that he planned it. I also think that there is some sort of insider thing going on, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that Bush is actively working with Kerry. But you know, whenever a party (Democrat or Republican) is in power for too long, corruption is bound to occur. So I don't think that it's just Bush that's involved in some dirty deals. If the Democrats had been in power for that long, believe me they would be just as corrupt.

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Originally posted by Adorkable:
Did you watch these? http://tinyurl.com/9e3kp http://tinyurl.com/cu4ra

It was not necessarily that Bush "caused 9/11". He has really caused very little in the past 6 years. Other elements caused 9/11. He is little beyond a figure-head--a very laid back guy who does not mind being a meat-puppet for the people who have granted him a life of great privalege and networking with the more-visible elite. Kerry, born from the same groups as Bush, would have owed these groups the same thing and played the same role--the only thing changed would have been the political diversions and pretexts for what is being done to our nation.

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Originally posted by Fascistsmasher:
Oh hell I wholeheartedly agree that Bush shouldn't be blamed for most of this. It's the establishment and our alleged "representatives" in the house and the senate who are/are controlled by the entrenched power within Washington as well as the money that surrounds it. The real power lies within the hands of the elites who own and run our country. Do not fool yourself, this is no Democracy.

The president is simply a figurehead, sitting at his desk doing what his corporate handlers tell him to. Honestly I think that people give him way to much credit without realizing that most of our problems lie within the dictatorial senators and representatives.

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Originally posted by Fuzzball3000:


I do see your point.

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Originally posted by Fuzzball3000:

Not true. I said that I understand your point. Which means that I see what you are saying. That doesn't mean that I agree with you; it merely says that I can respectfully disagree with you as opposed to me thinking "What the fuck is this moron thinking..."

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Originally posted by Fascistsmasher:
The "top of the chain" are a handful of very rich and powerful families as well as certain privelleged individuals. These men control the wealth of our nation and therefore direct the actions taken by government (I can explain this in greater depth later if you would like).

Phantom... while reform is still possible it is highly unlikely due to the nature of our government and the influence of money. Simply voting is rather fruitless unless the majority of the people can be made to realize that neither of the two parties represent the true interests of the people. There are steps that can be made to remedy some of the current problems... though they, again, are highly unlikely.

The first of these reforms is strict and unwavering term limits, 4 terms for a US or state rep and 2 terms for a US or state senator. The second is to limit the amount of campaign spending, ban television advertisment among other finance reforms. The third is rather controversial and most unlikely but in my opinion one of the best ideas; No representative who shall be eligible for election is to make more than the average per capita yearly income of the district which they represent, and no Senator who shall be eligible for election is to make more than three times the average per capita yearly income of the state which they represent.

Is it to late for reform... look around and decide yourself, my opinion can be infered from the tone of my posts (excuse the vagueness... you know why its there).

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Originally posted by Fascistsmasher:
I appologize that my "radical" ideas and "conspiracy" theories got you into trouble. Though if you want to really get into it I'm probably more well educated than your teacher and therefore a better authority on these matters... remember, no one believed me when I talked about the NSA spying on civillians until Bush acknowledged it. No one believes me about echelon or a lot of things... but they, like cointelpro, will come to light some day.

The strong do rule the weak, but should the rich rule the poor if the rich are only that way because they rode to the top on the backs of the poor? Furthermore that's not how a Democracy should work, as it stands America is an oligarchy, of course some would argue that it was intended to be that way.

Who did I vote for in 2004? I voted for myself actually, as did 500+ others. In terms of local candidates and state candidates as well as my rep. I voted DFL (Minnesotas more radical version of the Democratic party).

I fail to see these "radical ideas" though, while I will admit that I do have some... very few have been expressed within the last few months. In terms of the patriot act, government repression and "terrorism" I am simply taking the line that the FOUNDERS OF OUR COUNTRY would have taken. Where, exactly did I judge someones right to make executive decisions based on personal life? That really doesn't sound like something I would do.

Heh, I guess you teacher would be really pissed off at the University I am going to be teaching at (hopefully my teaching duties will begin next spring... though they may not, depending). I suggest you go do some research on your own, independant of "radicals" and corporate owned media and start looking at thing analytically. Trust me, the world isn't nearly as black and white as the ruling republicans want you to believe. On a further and final note, is your teacher married? I am curious because married women tend to be less well informed and (surprise) more conservative and likely to vote republican. I actually would suggest asking a male social studies teacher about the patriot act... but don't go on spouting anything I've said. Simply ask if he thinks it's a good or bad thing. Of course, the fact that she punished you for seeking out information and varying from what she considers the norm is worrying... why is she so afraid of someone with views that differ from hers?

Honestly I know you're young and have probably been raised by a republican family. I know many of the things said here probably worry you and believing in some of the things people have said probably would shake your very belief system to its core. I do not fault you for sticking to your predetermined beliefs... nay I commend you for coming here and seeking information while defending these beliefs. However, one of the biggest problems in our nation today is the lack of a well-informed citizenry (40 percent of people in the 04' election believed Saddam was tied to 9-11) and I can see within you a lack of quality information.

To just spout off some of the information I currently have easy access to. Did you know that 93 percent of Americans support abortion in at least one case, and 38 percent support it regardless of circumstance. Only 7 percent want to see it make totally illegal... thats a huge shocked to most anti-abortion advocates. Not surprisingly religious fundementalists, those opposed to homosexual sex and those that attend services frequently are all more likely to want abortion banned.

Only ten percent of Americans have a "great deal" of confidence in the press. Overwhelmingly Americans support increasing welfare... but only if it's called assistance to the poor. 75 percent say that too little is spent on healthcare. A fairly substantial amount of people (36 percent) say that marijuana should be legalized. Conversly, 39 percent of Americans believe that the man should work while the woman stays at home. 79 percent of Americans believe that a equally or less qualified man will get a job over a women. 68 percent think special effort should be made by employers to hire women. Ironically 84 percent oppose preferences in hiring practices (affirmative action). 73 percent agree that it is sometimes necessary to spank a child. 83 percent agree that ethnic minorities should be able to keep their traditions.

The point? People are a lot more liberal than you think... it's just that the republicans have demonized certain words and have ideological control over the current stream of American debate. I did add some stats that show America as being a very religious society as well (spanking, for instance) just to give you a general idea of things. Of course you support those currently engaged in the ideological domination so none of this may even matter to you... but I'm just trying to help and guide you toward becoming a better and more informed citizen.
http://www.politicalcompass.org/ go here and try it out...

BTW, here's my score
Economic Left/Right: -7.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.49

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