I assume this is the right subforum because it says nutrients and herbs in the description.

Discussions of any and all sorts of mind-warping chemicals, pills, booze, mind machines, trippy stuff, current street prices, importing pharmaceuticals, smart drugs, nutrients, herbs, and altered states. Please try to keep your conversations "theoretical" in nature, since this is an open conference.

I have recently became interested in anti oxidants because of MDMA harm reduction.

Basically, according to texts on erowid, MDMA releases all of your seratonin, and once that is depleted it starts to reuptake dopamine which than oxidizes in your seratonin receptors and "burns them out," which is supposedly responsible for the MDMA hangover/damage.

They shot up rats with huge amounts of vitamin C or ALA and then realized that the rats didn't suffer any seratonin depletion/damage/neurotoxicity.

I think this is shit because it uses correlations for its evidence and doesn't use experimental studies in humans to find its answers. Also, the amounts they used were huge. There is also another huge difference between intravenous and oral vitamen C/ala.

But, hey, if it won't harm me and it could help me, why not right?



So now everytime I use MDMA I consume vitamin C before and after.

I use the standard bullshit 1g packets even though I have researched and found that the body excretes most C after 500mg (and usually before that too, it just depends on the person). I also know that I'm taking it orally which puts a dent in this. How do I know that my stomache isn't just killing most of the Vitamen C anyways? I'm not a rat, nor am I shooting up vitamen C.

But the more I read the more concerned I get.

If I google "Antioxidant truth" a few ideas pop up.

1) The doses for these vitamens are extream. Way to much. It is possible that this is negative to be consuming grams upon grams of vitamin C all night.
2) Free radicals (oxidants) are in your body for a reason. It is true that they can cause damage, but they also kill a lot of bad shit. And oxidation is necessary for your blood vessils, too. Just like how taking antibiotics kills all of your bacteria but can also make you sick right after you stop taking them. It kills all the good bacteria.
3) Exercising causes a massive increase in free radicals. Obviously working out is not bad for you. The work out people say that the increase is a good thing because it is training your body to fight them?

So fuck. Recently I have been sick and have been taking mad anti oxidants. I think they are kind of cool but the moar research I do, the moar upset I get.

At first I was only researching things that confirmed my belief. But then I decided to bite the bullet and research things that would contradict it.



So, I've decided two things.

1) You shouldn't use antioxidants every day. Free radicals like bacteria can be good or bad.
2) It is probally a good idea to use them while rolling, but there actually is 0 proof at all that it will help in humans, especially the oral route.
3) It is possible that you are causing damage using mega amounts of the vitamens that the harm reduction websites suggest.




Does anyone have any info/research that is either pro/anti antioxidants?

Please realize that I am talking about 2 things, everyday anti-oxidant use for health and also for rolling.

Although quite a few people here seem to dislike TheBlackPope, he still makes topics that are way more productive and interesting, compared to many of you, non contributing, flamers.


I really hope that this conversation leads to something interesting and productive, not the usual flame fest.

I always figured the term "free radical" meant it basically killed (reacted with) whatever it touched.

Whether it was good or bad depended on whether it was set free in a cancer or not.

I am glad this is not the case, as i must be full of em.

Moms Aunt/Uncle drank tea every day of their lives.

Uncle smoked out of a corn cob, lived till he was 90ish.

Was always out in the garden (organic), tending to his plants.

Antioxidants ftw..

Good series to check out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaZUv8fvWNk (MDMA 5:24)

It goes over MDMA and how it may not be as "damaging" as its thought out to be. UK study.

for the depletion of whatever part, i take 5-htp vitamins along with vitamin b-6 to help convert and replenish faster.

i think this holds some truth since specific vitamins help specific things. and 5-htp is what helps create what you depleted during rolling. vitamin b-6 speeds up the process and

vitamin c is for the radicals.
s'all i know.

I do not understand how a lot of you guys think that 5htp is the shit. True, 5-htp converts into seratonin, BUT DOES NOT PASS THE BBB! An erowid article talks about this, 5htp has some anti oxidant properties and that is why it prevents 5HT (seratonin receptor) depletion, not because it converts into 5htp.



So I'm really at a loss of whether or not I want to use anti oxidats all day everyday, once a day, or cycle them like steroids (3months on 1 months off, or in this case 3 weeks on 1 week off).

Any suggestions, experiences?

Before every roll I ever take, I pre-dose the week before with Vitamin C, B Complex, Vitamin D, PLENTY of fresh fruits and veggies, omega-3's, alpha lipoic acid, and 5-HTP. I stop taking 5-HTP the day before I roll, and drop ALA and Vit C at the same time I take the E.

IMO you cant really get enough Antioxidants, don't nitpick about whats going on/what antioxidants you're eating, just eat fruits, supplement a bit, your body will know what to do.

If you follow my regimen up there, I think it is safe to say you wont be experiencing much neurotoxicity from MDMA, if any at all, although I guess I am a bit hardcore... :D

Cant be too careful!

Thank you for the informative and useful post. Lets get back on topic. :D

OP, I really think you are over-thinking this whole thing man, our bodies used to produce Vitamin C, much like they produce Vit D when we get sun exposure. But we evolved not to produce it, because our ancestors got so much Vitamin C from fruits and berries, etc. They would typically get 1000-2500% DV every day IIRC, so our bodies said "Hey, lets not waste energy making this shit, since we already have a source for it." So don't worry too much, at least in the Vitamin C department.

You shouldn't live on supplements, they are meant to supplement so don't worry about micro managing your antioxidant intake; generally speaking, more is better, and anything you don't need your body will take care of. If you keep up a steady stream of fruits, veggies, etc in your diet, you will be good. Most of the time, people do not have enough antioxidants in your day-to-day diet, so you are most likely fine.

I'm not gonna get in to the whole "ODing on vitaminz" thing right now, though. :p

if you roll less times a year than you have fingers on one hand, you really shouldn't worry about pre/post loading bullshit...

really, if its your first time rolling sense you can't remember when, just eat the fucking roll for christs sake..

This really doesn't apply..


I don't really believe MDMA is neurotoxic in humans. At best it depletes seratonin for 12-72 hours. But, I would rather not play with fire if I can take some cheap supplements.

From what I've seen MDMA becomes toxic around 3 regular strength pills (300mg), but it is repeated exposure that causes damage.

I draw this conclusion after spending a week online looking for info on it after I found out my cousin did E.

tl;dr: roll once a month to be safe, and take some 5htp after along with a double dose of multivitamins.

I do not understand how a lot of you guys think that 5htp is the shit. True, 5-htp converts into seratonin, BUT DOES NOT PASS THE BBB! An erowid article talks about this, 5htp has some anti oxidant properties and that is why it prevents 5HT (seratonin receptor) depletion, not because it converts into 5htp.Any suggestions, experiences?
In regards to that last sentence: lol wut?

Also, why would you care about 5-HT passing the BBB? MDMA depletes serotonin. You put more of the of the precursor for serotonin in your brain when you take MDMA, thus, you theoretically lose less serotonin. The precursor passes the BBB, then turns into serotonin. It doesn't matter if serotonin passes, the precursor will, giving you what you needed anyway.

Now, I could be wrong, I haven't done extensive research into any of this. However, if I am wrong I'd like for somebody besides TheBlackPope to prove it.

Some people are affected more severely by environmental factors then others.

One guy might be able to smoke everyday of his life and live forever while another guy could smoke one cigg and die the next week.

Bottom line: taking a multi-vitamin everyday is beneficial.

In regards to that last sentence: lol wut?

Also, why would you care about 5-HT passing the BBB? MDMA depletes serotonin. You put more of the of the precursor for serotonin in your brain when you take MDMA, thus, you theoretically lose less serotonin. The precursor passes the BBB, then turns into serotonin. It doesn't matter if serotonin passes, the precursor will, giving you what you needed anyway.

Now, I could be wrong, I haven't done extensive research into any of this. However, if I am wrong I'd like for somebody besides TheBlackPope to prove it.

I meant that 5htp doesn't pass through the BBB and convert inside the BBB into seratonin to replenish the receptors.

Look at the erowid file on anti oxidants and start reading about 5htp. You will see that there is controversy to whether or not the positive affects of 5htp are from 5htp converting into seratonin and replenishing 5HT, or if it is just the proven antioxidant properties of 5htp that are scavaging free radicals (that is exactly how vitamin C prevents MDMA neurotoxicity in rats, from the antioxidandt/scavaging properties.

Obviously, 5htp works because it is an anti oxidant, not because it replenishes 5HT receptors with seratonin, because 5htp/exogenous seratonin do not pass the BBB.

It really doesn't matter though, becasue 5htp does work, but only in rats and only intravenous.
Just like vitamin C, only proven to work in rats with intravenous methods.

They haven't even proved MDMA is neurotoxic in humans yet, as far as I know.

Bottom line: taking a multi-vitamin everyday is beneficial.

http://www.latimes.com/features/health/la-sci-vitamins21-2008dec21,0,3094132.story

I guess not.

I have to look it up again, but there are a few things you can take to combat/reduce the dangers of MDMA usage.


what I do know off the top of my head is this:
Baclofen has been shown to reduce body temperature spikes caused by MDMA. Phenibut is similar in effect to baclofen. Therefor, Phenibut has the same potential as Baclofen to combat body temperature spikes.

wouldn't hurt to try IMO.

Phenibut is a downer, and like alcohol would probally take off some of the euphoria.

Good series to check out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaZUv8fvWNk (MDMA 5:24)

It was alright, but I would heavily disagree with the list.

According to that, smoking weed is worse for you then doing E or huffing glue
Drinking a beer is worse then ketamine, amps, and smoking a cig.
And apparently Meth isn't even dangerous enough to make the list...

I meant that 5htp doesn't pass through the BBB and convert inside the BBB into seratonin to replenish the receptors.

Look at the erowid file on anti oxidants and start reading about 5htp. You will see that there is controversy to whether or not the positive affects of 5htp are from 5htp converting into seratonin and replenishing 5HT, or if it is just the proven antioxidant properties of 5htp that are scavaging free radicals (that is exactly how vitamin C prevents MDMA neurotoxicity in rats, from the antioxidandt/scavaging properties.

Obviously, 5htp works because it is an anti oxidant, not because it replenishes 5HT receptors with seratonin, because 5htp/exogenous seratonin do not pass the BBB.

It really doesn't matter though, becasue 5htp does work, but only in rats and only intravenous.
Just like vitamin C, only proven to work in rats with intravenous methods.

They haven't even proved MDMA is neurotoxic in humans yet, as far as I know.
Sources plox? :D

http://www.latimes.com/features/health/la-sci-vitamins21-2008dec21,0,3094132.story

I guess not.

[QUOTE=ShroomLove;10842111]Sources plox? :D

The fact that there are only intravenous rat studies and non-oral-human studies are my source.

It would be highly unethical for anyone who is pro-drug and anti-dea to say "well if it works it rats theres a huge posibility that it works in humans, becasue that is the same fucking tactic used by the anti-drug people. "OMG it causes huge depletion in rats (not not mice and many species of primates) and that depletion must be neurotoxic and if it happens it rats then it probally happens in humans!

Ummm right, well even though I could barely read whatever the hell was just typed, umm....its mostly just your conjecture, whether anti-drug people do that or not.

Source=Provide link to the study from which you got the info.

There are no direct studies into the neurotoxicity of orally dosed MDMA in humans, and there aren't likely to be any because of the ethical issues involved in administering potentially neurotoxic substances to humans. Studies of frequent users can't control for many other variables, so MDMA can never be reliably isolated as a causative factor in these studies. That said, reviews of MDMA's neurotoxicity do seem to indicate that use in humans can cause cognitive impairment; there's just not enough evidence to reach firm conclusions.

"Despite large methodological problems the bulk of evidence suggests residual alterations of serotonergic transmission in MDMA users, although at least partial restitution may occur after long-term abstinence. However, functional sequelae may persist even after longer periods of abstinence. To date, the most consistent findings associate subtle cognitive, particularly memory, impairments with heavy ecstasy use. However, the evidence cannot be considered definite and the issues of possible pre-existing traits or the effects of polydrug use are not resolved."

Gouzoulis-Mayfrank, E. & Daumann, J. (2006) Neurotoxicity of methylenedioxyamphetamines (MDMA; ecstasy) in humans: how strong is the evidence for persistent brain damage? Addiction, 101, pp. 348–361.

"Evidence for the occurrence of MDMA-induced neurotoxic damage in human users remains equivocal, although some biochemical and functional data suggest that damage may occur in the brains of heavy users. There is also some evidence for long-term physiological and psychological changes occurring in human recreational users. However, such evidence is complicated by the lack of knowledge of doses ingested and the fact that many subjects studied are or have been poly-drug users."

Green, R.A., Mecham, A.O., Elliott, M.J., O'Shea, E. & Colado, I.M. (2003) The Pharmacology and Clinical Pharmacology of 3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA, "Ecstasy"). Pharmacological Reviews, 55, pp. 463-508.

Given that MDMA is more neurotoxic in higher-order non-human primates than in rats, I'd say it's a pretty safe bet that it is neurotoxic in humans. EDIT: BlackPope, MDMA has been proven neurotoxic in many lab animals other than rats. In fact, it's proven neurotoxic in pretty much any animal it's been administered to, although most of those studies use intramuscular/intravascular methods instead of oral. /EDIT

I too would like to see studies proving 5-htp effective for this in rats, by the way. I can't find any, although admittedly I only spent about 5 minutes looking.

I distinctly remember reading something about SOME 5htp crossing the BBB but not a very large amount. In fact, a good chunk of it gets converted into serotonin outside the BBB for use in the rest of your body (your heart has serotonin receptors). Since MDMA depletes your brain's suppply of serotonin but doesn't do much to your body's supply then you're creating an overload of serotonin outside your brain. What you really want is some nice, raw, tryptophan... which you can thank your government for banning... essentially making bananas, milk, cheese, yogurt, chicken, and turkey illegal. Tryptophan is converted to 5htp based on the need for it, allowing your brain to make 5htp and then serotonin and letting your body stay normal.
A definite problem with vitamin C is the fact that it is water soluble and therefore acts as a diuretic in high doses, making dehydration worse. EAT ORANGES! THEY'RE FULL OF VITAMIN C AND WATER!
Don't confuse vitamin b6 with b12 either, too much b12 is harmful to nerve endings.
JUST EAT HEALTHY INSTEAD OF POPPING MORE PILLS!! fuck, is it really that hard? You'll avoid malnutrition if you're taking mdma, and I'm 100% sure that you won't have much trouble eating something really tasty and sweet/sour on mdma. If there's one kind of appetite that it doesn't cure its the appetite for sweets right after tasting something with sugar. If oranges are too sour than have a tangerine. It'll give you something to do with your hands and your mouth and probably prevent oral ulcers if you're one of the unlucky people that gets dry-mouth from MDMA.

The intended controversy of my rant: Use your better living to make your chemistry better.

I'm 100% sure that you won't have much trouble eating something really tasty and sweet/sour on mdma. If there's one kind of appetite that it doesn't cure its the appetite for sweets right after tasting something with sugar. If oranges are too sour than have a tangerine. It'll give you something to do with your hands and your mouth and probably prevent oral ulcers if you're one of the unlucky people that gets dry-mouth from MDMA.

I can't eat anything on MDMA. I'm super-happy to suck on a mint or a lollipop or something, but the action of swallowing something semi-solid down my throat is pretty much completely beyond me.

Orange juice... banana-milk smoothie... a blended turkey-chicken-cheese sandwitch....
...can you even drink water? just imagine having FLAVOURED WATER! =D


From personal experience, I had no appetite until I ate a nice, professionally prepared ice cream dish at a place called Dmitri's. I was so FUCKING HIGH, sweating like a mother fucker, looking at a plate that took up about 80% of the table, consisting of a pile of ice cream under a flapjack, with a crapload of chocolate sauce and whipped cream and strawberries and I thought to myself "fuck... why did I agree to go to this place or why did I take that pill already knowing how strong it was"... I took one bite and once the sweetness melted down my throat I pretty much hoovered it all down. After that, not even coke can kill my appetite. Its really a matter of getting past that childish "but I don't wanna!" attitude and just do it. If you can go on about whether or not to take vitamin C and then the drawbacks of taking a crapload of vitamin C then you can definatly figure out a compromise to eliminate the need to debate whether vitamin C is good or bad. The lining of your stomach will thank you for not subjecting it to starvation, not to mention increased acidity due to the gigantic pile of vitamin C, by not ulcerating.

...just don't get me wrong about the turkey, I can understand how chewing up meat (particularly dry tasting meat unless prepared by an experienced thanksgiving dinner host) may seem vile and then swallowing it will literally seem like an alien concept, its all about finding the right food. SOUP! With sour cream! After chewing its more like a "barely any solid at all", assuming you use noodles big enough to chew. Just throw your vitamins into your soup. Cereal? That shit gets pretty soft and swallowable unreasonably quick.

I don't understand how anyone can avoid eating fruit while on mdma, for me that's gotta be the next best thing to hugging people.... as for the turkey... save that for the next day, it'll probably relax you like something you'd get in exchange for your soul.

I guess for me its not so much that I'm hungry for food while on mdma, its more like... remember that simpsons episode where bart dares homer to eat that baking soda that's been in the fridge since they moved in, and probably longer? It seemed revolting at first but then there's that flavour-trip. After that, artificial flavoured anything just seems like bullshit.

[QUOTE=TheBlackPope;10842456]
Ummm right, well even though I could barely read whatever the hell was just typed, umm....its mostly just your conjecture, whether anti-drug people do that or not.

Source=Provide link to the study from which you got the info.


God how fucking stupid are you?

MY SOURCE IS THAT:

There areNO FUCKING SOURCES that show that vitamin C/HTP/ALA/ETC reduce neurotoxic effects of MDMA in humans.

The only thing that can possible suggest these help is that they inject huge amounts to rats and it reverses neurotoxicity in rats.

Rates are extreamly different than humans. Just because you can inject a rat with a mega dose of vitamen C, doesnt mean you can take 6-8x less, orally at that, and have it do anything. It is fucking stupid to think that works.



There are no direct studies into the neurotoxicity of orally dosed MDMA in humans, and there aren't likely to be any because of the ethical issues involved in administering potentially neurotoxic substances to humans. Studies of frequent users can't control for many other variables, so MDMA can never be reliably isolated as a causative factor in these studies. That said, reviews of MDMA's neurotoxicity do seem to indicate that use in humans can cause cognitive impairment; there's just not enough evidence to reach firm conclusions.

No, if you can do studies on things that are proven to have lasting side effects like APAP/Zoloft, there isn't an ethical issue behind it. It is because the anti-drug know what the results will be and are scared to have documented proof that MDMA isn't bad in humans. All the studies they produce are CORRELATIONS which are not evidence and can never be considered that. You are right, too many variables.


Given that MDMA is more neurotoxic in higher-order non-human primates than in rats, I'd say it's a pretty safe bet that it is neurotoxic in humans. EDIT: BlackPope, MDMA has been proven neurotoxic in many lab animals other than rats. In fact, it's proven neurotoxic in pretty much any animal it's been administered to, although most of those studies use intramuscular/intravascular methods instead of oral. /EDIT

I too would like to see studies proving 5-htp effective for this in rats, by the way. I can't find any, although admittedly I only spent about 5 minutes looking.

Uh, no you are wrong. MDMA doesn't show neurotoxicity in mice as well as quite a few primates. Go research on MAPS to find animals that aren't affected by it. BTW there are two different kinds of neurotoxicitiy, there is the lasting effects on 5HT such as rats, or the short term 100% reversible 5HT depletion in certain primates, and then there is the 0% bad effects on mice and other primates.

The studies on 5htp in animals are in erowid.

Neurotoxicity or not, tests show that there's only a negligible decrease in cognitive performance between ecstasy users compared to drug-free people. And chances are the ecstasy users that got tested took other drugs too, the survey wasn't designed to ask all the questions, and I guess not asking that question kind of proved a lot.
Who knows, maybe those ecstasy users were just tired after a long weekend of rolling balls.
Or maybe they were thinking about having a glass of water because they're all dehydrated from pissing out all that vitamin C they ate and can't concentrate on taking a test.

I think its pretty much common sense that receptor downregulation occurs, since it even occurs with SSRIs (supposedly their mechanism of anti-depressant action) and since MDMA not only works as an SSRI, it causes a massive flood of serotonin so no shit that you get way more downregulation from crap flooding serotonin receptors.
If your brain cells are dieing off then shouldn't you be forgetting shit that you can't possibly forget? ...You know, you could just binge out on MDMA and find out for yourself like I did.... I still speak english and polish, I can do math, I'm even learning german with great success since I started in february. I didn't get any bullshit depression and I didn't get any sort of psychosis.

Its a doomed cause. There will be lots of circular arguments. All counterable with each other.

Why are you even bothering arguing their position?

This is all correlational "evidence."

Usually, people of high intelligence do not take ecstasy.
Usually, people of average to low intelligence do take ecstasy.

The ecstasy does not cause the individual to preform less than non users.
The user from the start is most likely average intelligence.


And, anyways, even if mdma is bad, it can only be bad in mega doses over chronic amounts of time and it is always 100% reversible.

I myself use quite a bit of ecstasy. Not nearly as much as some of my friends do. All of my friends are fine. I am fine.

Ecstasy doesn't cause irreversible brain damage.

OP, what the fuck are you trying to say?

You don't make a point, or if those three lousy "decisions" are your point, they're weak as fuck.
Please explain exactly what you think and what's so controversial about it, because as far as I can tell, you're just stating what everyone knows.

Uh, no you are wrong. MDMA doesn't show neurotoxicity in mice as well as quite a few primates. Go research on MAPS to find animals that aren't affected by it. BTW there are two different kinds of neurotoxicitiy, there is the lasting effects on 5HT such as rats, or the short term 100% reversible 5HT depletion in certain primates, and then there is the 0% bad effects on mice and other primates.

The studies on 5htp in animals are in erowid.

No, you are wrong. MAPS is not a complete or unbiased resource, and it won't give you any kind of comprehensive or recent overview of the literature on MDMA neurotoxicity. The purpose of the site is to get MDMA approved as a prescription medication, and as such they're not going to put up too much information showing that MDMA is harmful.

"While MDMA appears to be a selective 5-HT neurotoxin in most species examined (rats, guinea pigs and primates), it is a selective dopamine neurotoxin in mice."

"Long-lasting effects of MDMA [in mice] in the striatal dopamine neurones are reflected by a loss of dopamine concentration, a reduction in the density of dopamine uptake sites, a decrease in tyrosine hydroxylase activity and an elevation in the levels of glial fibrillary acidic protein."

"MDMA was found to be neurotoxic to 5-HT nerve terminals in guinea pig brain by Commins et al. (1987). This group reported that the compound also produced a significant loss in striatal dopamine concentration."

"A series of studies on primates over the last 15 years all reported significant damage to 5-HT nerve terminals following MDMA administration...but none reported evidence of damage to dopaminergic terminals when this had also been studied."

Colado, I.M., O'Shea, E. & Green, R.A. (2004) Acute and long-term effects of MDMA on cerebral dopamine biochemistry and function. Psychopharmacology, 173, pp. 249-263.

From a review paper. MDMA is neurotoxic in mice, rats, guinea pigs and a variety of primates, although the mechanism is different in mice. Which primates is MDMA not neurotoxic in?

And there are almost 1600 papers and articles on Erowid in their MDMA collection. Could you please provide an actual link or reference? The person making the claim is the one that has to provide proof; you can't just say "go research on MAPS" or "look on Erowid".

You owe me proof that MDMA doesn't effect some primates and studies on 5-htp in animals.

Usually, people of high intelligence do not take ecstasy.
Usually, people of average to low intelligence do take ecstasy.

Unsubstantiated generalisation.

The ecstasy does not cause the individual to preform less than non users.

Unsubstantiated claim.

The user from the start is most likely average intelligence.

Unsunstantiated generalisation.

And, anyways, even if mdma is bad, it can only be bad in mega doses over chronic amounts of time and it is always 100% reversible.

Unsubstantiated claim.

I myself use quite a bit of ecstasy. Not nearly as much as some of my friends do. All of my friends are fine. I am fine.

False extrapolation.

I could say "I smoke. A lot of my friends smoke more than me, too. None of us have any negative health effects from it, therefore smoking isn't unhealthy."

Ecstasy doesn't cause irreversible brain damage.

Unsubstantiated claim.

...

Do you have any proof that people of higher intelligence are less likely to take MDMA?

What do you mean when you say that MDMA doesn't cause a reduction in 'performance'?

How do you know that MDMA is only harmful in extreme and chronic doses?

How do you know that neurological damage from MDMA is 100% reversible?

I wouldn't normally do this, but it was you who started asking for proof and trying to turn this into a proper, substantiated scientific debate.

Here's some food for thought. Isn't a neurotoxin supposed to kill neurons? Last I remember, neurons are more than their receptors and reuptake sites and dead neurons don't come back to life as they are completely dead and not just temporarily altered.
Olney's lesions everybody.

It depends how precise you are with the definition. A neurotoxin could be strictly defined as something that outright kills neurons, or more broadly defined as something that renders neurons (temporarily or permanently) inoperable or less effective than they previously were. The second definition appears to be pretty commonly used.

It depends how precise you are with the definition. A neurotoxin could be strictly defined as something that outright kills neurons, or more broadly defined as something that renders neurons (temporarily or permanently) inoperable or less effective than they previously were. The second definition appears to be pretty commonly used.

I think if we work together then we can create the term "neuroliberator" and define it as "a substance that frees neurons from the control inflicted on them by other neurons and allows them to function freely and independantly and without the means to control neurons or be controlled".
Once we achieve this then I think MDMA might be looked at from a different point of view.