The irony is, that I am getting pegged for not wanting to have sex. Yes, I am trying to not have sex before I get married. Its for my own reasons and my own beliefs, not the beliefs of someone else forcing their opinions on me. No, I don't try to make anyone else do the same.

But all I get are people telling me "you don't have to wait" or "your going to be inexperienced and disappoint your soon to be divorced wife..." What the hell? People are bitching about Christians forcing their views on other people? Come on.

How am I supposed to react? Is it ok for someone to tell me to fuck before I get married, but the second someone gets told to wait, the situation turns into, "Hey stop impeding on my personal freedoms" ?

what are you posting this on totse for..? you're asking to get flamed... i will spare you the embarrassment..

I won't flame you.
It's a good point. That's a great hypocrisy.
Unfortunately, the only advice anyone could possibly give you is to stick to your guns and ignore said hypocrites.
Not sure what else needs to be said.

By the way, "your going to be inexperienced and disappoint your soon to be divorced wife..." is one of the more ignorant things I've ever heard. Why would you marry someone who doesn't love you enough to have sex with you often that you could learn how to make it better? Wow.

I actually got that line at the end of my last relationship.
She turned out to be a slut anyway.

She turned out to be a slut anyway.

It happens.

people are just stupid. learn to ignore them.

No, I don't try to make anyone else do the same.

Yup. That's all I care about. I might still tease you, but I do that to people who are getting laid, too...

Yup. That's all I care about. I might still tease you, but I do that to people who are getting laid, too...

Yeah, but when you tease you're using a rattler. I don't think your sexual experiences or humor apply to this conversation...or do they? Everyone in this thread is sounding like they're under 12. Maybe you can get their number Pedo?

I won't flame you.
It's a good point. That's a great hypocrisy.

qft..

Just accept the fact that people are ignorant fools and life will be a lot easier.

uhhh if your a girl, i can understand why people would tell you to have sex. cuz they wanna have sex with you.

but if your a guy, tell people to fuck off, before you take THEIR virginity.

If you're doing it for Christian reasons, what do you expect? Nobody forces their views on others more than hard-line atheists, and they do it from what they think is the moral high ground. Insufferable.

If that's your final choice then stick to it. Maybe the people that say that stuff are right, maybe they arent.

But it's your decision at the end of the day, so dont get too bothered by what people might say to you. Your body not theirs, your life not theirs.

I agree. I was going to say the same myself.

Did you ever think the reason they are DISCUSSING this topic with you is for your own good? Quit being so fuckin overly dramatic with the "forcing" bullshit, you know that isn't the case. If you were so set in your beliefs a simple fucking discussion wouldn't be misconstrued as being "forced". Big deal, its their opinion.....move on.

As far as I'm concerned anyone that is willing to make such a commitment without taking a test ride first is a complete FOOL! Tell me, would you go purchase a house with the understanding there is a room in that house marked "do not enter, until the house is yours"???? Who the fuck knows what could be through that door? Could be your greatest dreams or your most insufferable nightmares.

And trust me if you really do marry before losing your virginity you'll probably be pushed in that direction by more things than logic and reason. Nope, you'll have hormones making some of those decisions for you. You'll be so desperate to blow that wad inside her, you'll look past all of those faults and get engaged with rose-colored glasses on. Chances are it will be a very FAST engagement, and you won't even know that person inside and out. Then you'll wake up one day weeks/months later, realize the sex isn't everything that it was cracked up to be.....and find yourself with someone you don't even like very much. And you'll both be miserable.....and/or you'll find yourself in divorce court....yet another "sin" in God's eyes.

See, I don't even give a flying fuck about you...and I think you should remove these lofty ideals. And because your friends are saying it to you, it is now somehow being "forced" on you. Man up, don't be such a drama mama.....and stop living in some Mayberry fairy tale thinking you are doing the "right thing" by keeping your virginity till marriage. It could be the biggest mistake of your life.

Did you ever think the reason they are DISCUSSING this topic with you is for your own good? Quit being so fuckin overly dramatic with the "forcing" bullshit, you know that isn't the case.

No, you don't know that that isin't the case, and since you don't have all the facts, I'd like to ask you to stop being melodramatic.



If you were so set in your beliefs a simple fucking discussion wouldn't be misconstrued as being "forced". Big deal, its their opinion.....move on.

I have had plenty of normal conversations where I talk to someone about sexual preferences, and my recent ones don't count as normal, they count as aggravated, or in my words, forced. Because the relationship ended because we did not have sex. Now is the time for you to shut the fuck up because you do not know what you are talking about because you made assumptions.


As far as I'm concerned anyone that is willing to make such a commitment without taking a test ride first is a complete FOOL! Tell me, would you go purchase a house with the understanding there is a room in that house marked "do not enter, until the house is yours"???? Who the fuck knows what could be through that door? Could be your greatest dreams or your most insufferable nightmares.

So would you just live in a house that wasn't yours without paying for it? That sound even more foolish. Test ride? Don't degrade sex like that.


And trust me if you really do marry before losing your virginity you'll probably be pushed in that direction by more things than logic and reason. Nope, you'll have hormones making some of those decisions for you. You'll be so desperate to blow that wad inside her, you'll look past all of those faults and get engaged with rose-colored glasses on. Chances are it will be a very FAST engagement, and you won't even know that person inside and out. Then you'll wake up one day weeks/months later, realize the sex isn't everything that it was cracked up to be.....and find yourself with someone you don't even like very much. And you'll both be miserable.....and/or you'll find yourself in divorce court....yet another "sin" in God's eyes.

Hm, I just got out of my last relationship for not wanting to have sex, yet from your logic I should have said "OMG lets get married and fuck forget the test drive"



See, I don't even give a flying fuck about you
Well, you sure are going out of your way to let me know that.


...and I think you should remove these lofty ideals. And because your friends are saying it to you, it is now somehow being "forced" on you. Man up, don't be such a drama mama.....and stop living in some Mayberry fairy tale thinking you are doing the "right thing" by keeping your virginity till marriage. It could be the biggest mistake of your life.

My friends aren't saying this to me. Pull your head out of your ass and read whats going on.

And theres nothing wrong with what I am doing. It is the "right thing" to me.

No, you don't know that that isin't the case, and since you don't have all the facts, I'd like to ask you to stop being melodramatic.

Uhhh, you do realize that you posted a topic on a message board, right? Do you also realize that while doing this you are requesting a response from people to the information you have given, not the total information on the subject? It stands to reason that we wont know all the facts when you give us a very brief typed overview of the situation.

I have had plenty of normal conversations where I talk to someone about sexual preferences, and my recent ones don't count as normal, they count as aggravated, or in my words, forced. Because the relationship ended because we did not have sex.

What are you talking about? Where was this girl's views "forced" onto anyone? So you wouldn't have sex with her so she left you? That's what's known as maturity and restraint, not forcing views down someone's throat. She didn't rape you, she didn't even cheat on you. She left you because she is mature enough to realize that with proper precautions there is no problem with sex, and that what a political council 1700 years ago decided probably isn't relavent to God's will anyways.

Now is the time for you to shut the fuck up because you do not know what you are talking about because you made assumptions.

You seem awfully angry. Maybe you should mellow out and get laid.

So would you just live in a house that wasn't yours without paying for it?

I see. Well, have fun trying to find a virgin bride that hasn't been devalued by a desire to enjoy life. The idea that you have to pay for sex via a legally binding contract is quite disturbing to my secular sensibilities.

Test ride? Don't degrade sex like that.

Oh, I forgot. There is an omnipresent, omnibenevolent creator of all that ever has and ever shall be and he really gives a damn whether you have sex before entering into a particular legal contract or not.

Hm, I just got out of my last relationship for not wanting to have sex, yet from your logic I should have said "OMG lets get married and fuck forget the test drive"

You misunderstood. What his logic is saying is that you should have had sex with an attractive woman you were fond of, like this one that broke up with you. Marriage doesn't come into the picturein this case, although having at least some sexual experience before a life-shaping event like marriage couldn't be a bad idea.

Well, you sure are going out of your way to let me know that.

You don't seem adept at reading between the lines, so he just had to clarify.

My friends aren't saying this to me. Pull your head out of your ass and read whats going on.

Once again, we can only work with the information you give us. Perhaps you should have given the full story in the original post.

And theres nothing wrong with what I am doing. It is the "right thing" to me.

Don't take things so personally. Besides, what did you take the time out of your day to post this for if not to look for contradictory opinions? If you wanted nothing but high fives and praise, I'm sure there are plenty of evangelical websites out there just a few clicks away.

Just one less guy to compete with...I thank you Siash! :p

Uhhh, you do realize that you posted a topic on a message board, right? Do you also realize that while doing this you are requesting a response from people to the information you have given, not the total information on the subject? It stands to reason that we wont know all the facts when you give us a very brief typed overview of the situation.



What are you talking about? Where was this girl's views "forced" onto anyone? So you wouldn't have sex with her so she left you? That's what's known as maturity and restraint, not forcing views down someone's throat. She didn't rape you, she didn't even cheat on you. She left you because she is mature enough to realize that with proper precautions there is no problem with sex, and that what a political council 1700 years ago decided probably isn't relavent to God's will anyways.



You seem awfully angry. Maybe you should mellow out and get laid.



I see. Well, have fun trying to find a virgin bride that hasn't been devalued by a desire to enjoy life. The idea that you have to pay for sex via a legally binding contract is quite disturbing to my secular sensibilities.



Oh, I forgot. There is an omnipresent, omnibenevolent creator of all that ever has and ever shall be and he really gives a damn whether you have sex before entering into a particular legal contract or not.



You misunderstood. What his logic is saying is that you should have had sex with an attractive woman you were fond of, like this one that broke up with you. Marriage doesn't come into the picturein this case, although having at least some sexual experience before a life-shaping event like marriage couldn't be a bad idea.



You don't seem adept at reading between the lines, so he just had to clarify.



Once again, we can only work with the information you give us. Perhaps you should have given the full story in the original post.



Don't take things so personally. Besides, what did you take the time out of your day to post this for if not to look for contradictory opinions? If you wanted nothing but high fives and praise, I'm sure there are plenty of evangelical websites out there just a few clicks away.



Instead of copying you copying me quoting all of those quotes piece by piece, I am going to sum all of this up:

There was already a thread about not getting or trying to get under each others skin, so before we hijack the thread to start arguing, I would like to remind you that I respect everyones views, until they disrespect mine. That being said:
YOU need to read the entire thread where you would see all of the mistakes you and the Guru made in saying that I am not trying to have sex for the such and such reason. You seem to think I'm not trying to have sex before I get married because I am a Christian. That is not the major factor. I am waiting because of my life's experience. It has nothing to do with why YOU wouldn't want to wait. Maybe if you put yourself into someone else's shoes and tried to see their perspective, you could gain a bit more understanding. If theres some information I have not said to make you not understand any of this, let me know.

You do make some good points here. Don’t you think that it is good to know someone very well before making the commitment of marriage, and preferably before having sexual relations with that person beforehand, as well? It takes a long time to know someone inside and out though, so a lot of people forego that before they do. That can cause just as many problems too. Knowing someone sexually before getting married is no guarantee that same desire will be there after a long period of time. Things happen….people change.

So, if you ask me, I think it is most important to develop a relationship over time, with real intimacy. Then, as you do you can bring the sexual experience into that as well.

How difficult is it, DaGuru, to find that balance….that point where “two become as one”? How often do you think that two people who get married actually find that with each other? How early in their relationship? And how do you think they do it?

What are some of your suggestions? What things have worked for you?


To the OP.....Clearly you are frustrated/angry at this point for being dumped because someone didn't share your same idealogy. I'm not trying to say you are "wrong" because of your moral choices, just rattling off a few pitfalls as you try to live out those lofty standards. Actually the only thing I believe you are "wrong" about is you continuing to say you are being "forcefed" certain beliefs. Everyone is entitled to their own individual beliefs and if people don't chose to deny themselves pleasure, fantasies, intimacy, profound bonding (just a few of the reasons people have sex)....then there is nothing WRONG with them for leaving you and seeking out another partner that IS willing to gratify them in that way. See for them to stay with you and NOT have sex.....then you have successfully "forcefed" them your ideals, making them stay in a committed relationship that involved celibacy. Everyone parts ways and continues to live out THEIR OWN morality choices. Get it now?

oc6.....You pose a number of fabulous questions, and I certainly don't have any broad based answers. Not to sound cliche, but every situation is different. All I can attest to is my life experiences and things I've witnessed. I personally don't think there is any set time table right for couples, because the dynamic of any coupling is ALWAYS different. I know folks that were banging like bunnies on their 2nd or 3rd date, living just as happily ever after as those that waited longer. I don't believe that introducing sex "too early" in a relationship means doom for that relationship. Hell, some of the greatest convos I've had with women was AFTER sex during hours of pillow talk. All of that tension, anxiety, lust etc.......its all washed away. Now you are TRULY seeing the essence of that person, because they are more vulnerable after sharing such intimacy with you.

Part of my family are members of a religion that strictly frowns on pre-marital sex. Because of that I've developed many friendships with folks insides that religion, and have been privy to a certain niche of society for almost 30+ years. And I have seen MANY failed marriages, because you had 2 virgins that did in fact live up to their celibacy.......but their horny loins definitely pushed them to the alter that much faster. A more hasteful decision. Months later after those curisioties have been answered, and those carnal desires have been fulfilled......they wake up with "THEM?!!!!???" Suddenly the toilet seat being up is more annoying, his dead end job ain't so romantic, and her crazy family is downright frustrating. The rose colored glasses are now off, and life ain't so peachy any more.

I do have one small criteria in regard to relationships, and I think it fits..... no matter the age or moralities of the people involved. That is the "getaway weekend" theory......and no, it doesn't have to involve sex at all. Basically, I believe that once you spend 2 -3 days in a row with someone, without any interruptions......then you are seeing the real them. Anyone can play a role for an evening or overnight, and make themselves out to be whatever they like to whomever they want. But by the afternoon/evening of day 2, unless the person is an outright con man or pathological liar....people can't keep the charade up any more. NOW you see them for how they really are. Those little quirks..... whether its manners, patience, temperment, humor, horniness, etc. Most importantly, you are discovering if your quirks mesh with theirs. Again, its all about time and how much you can tolerate. Your man's stinky feet may not be a big deal for a 2 hour romp at your friends pool.....but an entire weekend at the beach? Totally different story. Just like he may not know it takes his gal 2 hours to get out of that bathing suit into casual clothes just for surf-n-turf at the local bar. Those are just two silly examples, but in my mind there are possibly thousands of minor nuances that you are now putting to a "test" under that long weekend scenario.

Other than that, I don't have any set answers.....because again, each dynamic of each relationship is completely different than the next, and no "timetable" that is working for couple "A" may necessarily work for the next 1 million couples coming along that would try a similar one.

I don't have time to comment on all you've written, but I'm so glad you found to time to do so.

You are exactly right on the above. Luckily I can count on one hand the number of times that I wanted to "escape" from someone after being sexually intimate. After experiencing that a few times I made it a point of "getting that out of the way to find out if there was something really there".

I do not recommend that approach though. It seems there must be a middle line there somewhere. I just never could seem to find it.

:(

Thanks for the great response to my questions.

edit:

I guess, what it boils down for me is that I often distrust desire, lust, or whatever you want to call it. Unless it is accompanied by something deeper.

I'm glad you got something out of my post, and was afraid it sounded like a cop-out to some very difficult questions. As for your distrust that you just described above, I may have an idea....but it may be a concept totally opposite of your normal thought process.

Instead of distrusting it, use it to your advantage to exploit the discovery process of that person at a quicker rate. I'm not suggesting to sleep with someone before you are absolutely ready, but when you are....just go for it. Because once you ARE sexually active with someone, now you are finding out if they are doing the things they are doing because they like you....or is it all just an attempt to "capture the prize". Remove the "prize" factor, and then witness how he treats you.

Think of all of those little things a guy does on a date to try to woo you, or impress you. Is it because he is so enamored with you, or is he trying to score at the end of the evening? Letting you choose between Italian or Chinese? Holding the door open for you? Hearing you prattle on for 20 minutes about work politics? Laughing at your jokes? Again, is he sincere.....or is that all just the price he is paying to get some lovin? Once you get the sex out of the way, then you really find out. If you've already been intimate with him once or twice.....try a reverse date. When he comes to pick you up, sex him up like never before. Go all out with him, take a shower, and THEN start your evening out on the town. See how much of a gentleman he is now that there is no "pursuit" for the end of the evening. Is he still as cordial and interested in your life, your dreams, your needs as he would be if there was a prize for all of his efforts in that evening? Once you remove that testosterone drive for men, then quite often you are really finding out their true essence. Kinda like the pillow talk we were discussing above.

To the OP.....Clearly you are frustrated/angry at this point for being dumped because someone didn't share your same idealogy. I'm not trying to say you are "wrong" because of your moral choices, just rattling off a few pitfalls as you try to live out those lofty standards. Actually the only thing I believe you are "wrong" about is you continuing to say you are being "forcefed" certain beliefs. Everyone is entitled to their own individual beliefs and if people don't chose to deny themselves pleasure, fantasies, intimacy, profound bonding (just a few of the reasons people have sex)....then there is nothing WRONG with them for leaving you and seeking out another partner that IS willing to gratify them in that way. See for them to stay with you and NOT have sex.....then you have successfully "forcefed" them your ideals, making them stay in a committed relationship that involved celibacy. Everyone parts ways and continues to live out THEIR OWN morality choices. Get it now?

oc6.....You pose a number of fabulous questions, and I certainly don't have any broad based answers. Not to sound cliche, but every situation is different. All I can attest to is my life experiences and things I've witnessed. I personally don't think there is any set time table right for couples, because the dynamic of any coupling is ALWAYS different. I know folks that were banging like bunnies on their 2nd or 3rd date, living just as happily ever after as those that waited longer. I don't believe that introducing sex "too early" in a relationship means doom for that relationship. Hell, some of the greatest convos I've had with women was AFTER sex during hours of pillow talk. All of that tension, anxiety, lust etc.......its all washed away. Now you are TRULY seeing the essence of that person, because they are more vulnerable after sharing such intimacy with you.

Part of my family are members of a religion that strictly frowns on pre-marital sex. Because of that I've developed many friendships with folks insides that religion, and have been privy to a certain niche of society for almost 30+ years. And I have seen MANY failed marriages, because you had 2 virgins that did in fact live up to their celibacy.......but their horny loins definitely pushed them to the alter that much faster. A more hasteful decision. Months later after those curisioties have been answered, and those carnal desires have been fulfilled......they wake up with "THEM?!!!!???" Suddenly the toilet seat being up is more annoying, his dead end job ain't so romantic, and her crazy family is downright frustrating. The rose colored glasses are now off, and life ain't so peachy any more.

I do have one small criteria in regard to relationships, and I think it fits..... no matter the age or moralities of the people involved. That is the "getaway weekend" theory......and no, it doesn't have to involve sex at all. Basically, I believe that once you spend 2 -3 days in a row with someone, without any interruptions......then you are seeing the real them. Anyone can play a role for an evening or overnight, and make themselves out to be whatever they like to whomever they want. But by the afternoon/evening of day 2, unless the person is an outright con man or pathological liar....people can't keep the charade up any more. NOW you see them for how they really are. Those little quirks..... whether its manners, patience, temperment, humor, horniness, etc. Most importantly, you are discovering if your quirks mesh with theirs. Again, its all about time and how much you can tolerate. Your man's stinky feet may not be a big deal for a 2 hour romp at your friends pool.....but an entire weekend at the beach? Totally different story. Just like he may not know it takes his gal 2 hours to get out of that bathing suit into casual clothes just for surf-n-turf at the local bar. Those are just two silly examples, but in my mind there are possibly thousands of minor nuances that you are now putting to a "test" under that long weekend scenario.

Other than that, I don't have any set answers.....because again, each dynamic of each relationship is completely different than the next, and no "timetable" that is working for couple "A" may necessarily work for the next 1 million couples coming along that would try a similar one.



I'm not saying anything about being forcefed here. I don't think there is anything wrong with having premarital sex. If My parents hadn't had premarital sex, I wouldn't be here typing this ok? The only thing is that my original post and the title of the Thread was the IRONY that I am being put in situations where my morals on not having sex are seen as wrong instead of vice versa, which is usually the norm. you know, "Stay abstinent or you'll go to hell" all that bull.

But the bit about use of the defining word "Forced" goes like this, I will be As specific as possible:

My last relationship ended because my girl said, "have sex with me, or were through"

How is that not FORCING your beliefs on someone?

Also Guru, I'm not trying to make an argument out of all this, don't think I am trying to make my way the only way.

Ya, pretty true.

But the bit about use of the defining word "Forced" goes like this, I will be As specific as possible:

My last relationship ended because my girl said, "have sex with me, or were through"

How is that not FORCING your beliefs on someone?

Also Guru, I'm not trying to make an argument out of all this, don't think I am trying to make my way the only way.


You are right, we are just arguing semantics now....but I'll try just a bit longer. Here is how you would be "forced". Imagine a scenario where you and some friends drive down to Daytona on Spring Break. Its your buddy's car and 2 days into the trip he says to you....."dude, either you fuck a girl and she tells us about it, or we ain't taking you home." At that point you ARE being negatively impacted by that statement, and manipulated to either put your life in a perilous/hardship situation or succumb to that demand. In other words being FORCED!

In a relationship like you described...it is an EQUAL 2 WAY STREET! Its just lack of compatibility, nothing more. You have 2 parties with opposite needs/expectations.

One person is saying....."This relationship can only continue if we remain celibate."
The other is saying........"This relationship can only continue if we are sexually active."

Neither is right or wrong, just a difference of opinion. Neither is "forcing" the other anything. But it is polar opposites, one statement contradicts the other, and 2 mindsets with such differing views will not live harmoniously and with compatibility. In order to be "forced" there has to be some kind of "oppresor"....... and in this scenario NO ONE was oppressed. It is EQUAL divisiveness.

STOP TRYING TO FORCE YOUR DAMN CHRISTIAN VIEWS ON ME! GOD!


But seriously, thats life.
Double standards everywhere you look and things that are just lame and make you miserable.
Nothing you can do

Yeah, but when you tease you're using a rattler.

Psh. Never tease the one you're with. Although... sharing a pacifier can be the most romantic thing in existance. <3

I don't think your sexual experiences or humor apply to this conversation...or do they?

Well... seeing as this thread is about an absence of sexual experiences, probably not.

My humor, otoh, gets interjected whether it's applicable or not. The world really does exist just to amuse me.

Everyone in this thread is sounding like they're under 12. Maybe you can get their number Pedo?

Hmm... you have a thought there. I think I'm promoting you to "chief kiddie sexing advisor" for that one. Thanks!

So would you just live in a house that wasn't yours without paying for it? That sound even more foolish.

Hey... if a friend invites me to come visit for a weekend...

there is no god....get over it

There might be, there might not be.

Far as I can tell, if there is one, it/he/she has never done anything good or bad to me, so there's no point in beleiving in it.

God: Father christmas for grown-ups.

Psh. Never tease the one you're with. Although... sharing a pacifier can be the most romantic thing in existance. <3



Well... seeing as this thread is about an absence of sexual experiences, probably not.

My humor, otoh, gets interjected whether it's applicable or not. The world really does exist just to amuse me.



Hmm... you have a thought there. I think I'm promoting you to "chief kiddie sexing advisor" for that one. Thanks!

This shit is too fucking funny

RELIGIOUS FIGHT TIME?
I think not.

Go to MGCBTSOOYG for that, and don't question my religious preferences here.

It's because it's unnatural, I think and people don't know how to react to things that seem stupid except use common sense and say "why the fuck are you doing this stupid, stupid thing?".

Then again people do do a lot of stupid things and laugh at others who don't. I don't think people who speak too much about what they believe are the wisest, for example. People laugh at me for being very silent. To me I'm normal, to them I'm insane and vice versa.

The no sex before marriage thing to me is an empty belief that some manmade, unreal construct which exists only in the mind and by law (in a world with corrupted greedy murderous governments) and really an attempt to put another mask on reality. It's stupid and the older I get and the more I remain in my nature and avoid things like marriage and kids, the more I see which women are worth it, who understands life and who is hopelessly attached to things that will drag them down for the rest of what they will call a life.

Girls who do things for their men like go so far as holding off their own sex drive are like corpses to me. That's almost like having a kid with a guy just because HE wants it. The sex is bad when women just lay there, this is really a strange world. Not only corpses, but more likely to fuck anyone else and this comes from friendships with people in the same boat. I wouldn't force my beliefs on you but I can say I sure would avoid you and anyone who speaks of gods or jesus or their christian mind games... I make sure to ask to explain what god is, who jesus was, as if the bible is a foreign language to me. Because that's what it should be, but people are so mindly they are no longer simple human beings. I did this to some jehovahs witnesses the other day who came to my door. Before they even said a word you know who I thought they were? Fucking cops. It's because cops come off as self righteous, sneaky bastards who think they know more than you and have the final say no matter what. These guys looked at me funny for asking them who God is, and asking another question for every answer. To me, this is something people need to do more, stop being the collective mind and conforming and accepting these useless, old beliefs.

So I think as long as you are going to "believe" something, you're going to have the opposite beliefs opposed to you. Want people to leave you alone? Be like me. Don't believe ANYTHING. Nobody talks shit to me because I don't cling to some identity and stand for things people always try to stand for. Don't believe you'll live fucking tomorrow. Don't believe in the future, or having sex in some future, do it now or don't think of it or plan on it ever. Marriages can fail, it's not going to make your sex life better, or give any more worth to your life. Don't believe you're limited by the past or to any one set of rules or laws or beliefs. Then people won't know anything about you and maybe you'll get an interesting perspective on life. Won't have many friends, but if you shut your mouth more and pay attention, you learn more from life about what is REALLY right and wrong.

Good luck in your little world. Just don't forget there's a universe out there and the universe isn't always going to conform or accept the rules of your world. But hey I could be wrong and you could be right. Just my two cents.

A world of human beings can exist without marriage.

A world of human beings does not exist without sex.

To me, that's unnatural. WE give it meaning, not nature.... Nature doesn't conform to our beliefs. We conform to it, and when we try not to, well. Look at this world.

Good point, and I'm not saying we are always wrong, but certainly not always right.

But sex is something blissful. I'm not talking about the orgasm, I'm talking about before it. You dont run on the field and marry the field. You run because it's fun. You don't need society or laws involved, just oxygen. You don't go to the beach because it's nice to eat food there or because it's nice to bring your car there. You go there because there's sand, water and fresh air, blue skies away from the city.

Attaching things like marriage to sex is following footsteps someone else made. Someone ELSE made marriage. Someone else didn't give you a dick and make you want to insert it into a vagina. That's something inside. Marriage is not. That's something completely outside. The two have absolutely nothing to do with each other therefore it seems nonsensical to me to define one by the other.

You think it's hard living in a world with your beliefs? It's hard NOT believing YOU and EVERYONE else. Try my world. Try seeing the animal attraction in women postponed for reason YOU and other people would find normal. These people look insane to me. Short breathing, busy workschedules. People half live, then pass this excuse of a world onto their children who, as time goes on are becoming very, very depressed as a whole.

I think people who shut their mouths and never cling to any belief are truly the happiest people I've met. Their sexuality is usually better too. All my friends wonder why I don't date much. I'm told I'm attractive, I'm a very physical tall guy, and I know for sure many girls have been interested. It's because of your phony ideals that are so strong in brainwashing this world that I myself have had to postpone my own sex drive, because girls no longer want sex, oh no. Now they want money, cars, marriage, children. They want whatever they are told is a good idea. They will sit there and agree to their dying day. People are all about ideals and not sex these days. Sex, exercise, play. People don't play anymore. People are dead. It's because so many people are dead that you accept it as normal and conform. So as good as you think your beliefs are, maybe you should just keep them to yourself because maybe somewhere in the world it's doing more harm than good. But why listen to me, I'm just a.... oh wait, I don't have a religion either. I'm just someone who apparently hasn't forgotten how to play and just enjoy today for what the fuck it is. Sorry, I'll stay on that field running until I can't sweat anymore and drink my water, breathe in fresh air. I won't waste a day of my life not having a blast. You go have your cigarettes and coffee, and read the newspaper. You go have a family and drive your nice car to your fancy restaurants. Whatever it takes to make you feel alive, but the best things in life are FREE.

To the poster known as *Fuck*.........Those 2 posts above mine are the best damn posts I've ever read on Totse. You my friend.....GET IT! I often look out at a busy intersection and witness the hustle and bustle amongst humans and just laugh at myself. Everyone scurrying around with such haste......busy, stressed, depressed....chasing WHAT exactly? It reminds me of watching an ant colony....the ants running around in such a frenzy, bumping into each other, over each other.

I totally hear you when you say....."try living in my world". Its a curse, not a blessing is it not? I sometimes think to myself how much easier it would be to carry myself in this world like most everyone else does. To not be able to see the bigger picture, and instead be satisfied with these petty pursuits that so much of the populace engages in. The saying "ignorance is bliss"......couldn't have more accuracy. I believe while folks such as you and I may have a higher frustration level in witnessing the actions of the rest of humanity.......I still maintain that we are enjoying the journey of life more than them. We don't take our days/hours/minutes for granted, and we relish this journey a helluva lot more than most. In other words soaking up as much of this adventure for what its worth, and NOT letting a possible tomorrow inhibit our enjoyments for today.

Keep on keepin on Fuck.......love hearing from a person with such profound truths! : )

I always removed the "prize" factor. I was the easiest woman to get into bed because of what I thought at the time.

The thing is...I'm a very shy person. It takes a while to get me to open up. But, sexually...I was often quite aggressive. (Moreso than I am today. I'm actually less sexually assure these days.) So then, you take this sexually aggressive woman who...after a time...regresses.

It's very confusing, to say the least. (Not only for others, but myself.) I almost compartmentalize myself, I think. Certain aspects of myself are brought out for a time...then put away. I haven't been able to integrate all those things about myself as a whole. (You probably don't understand what I'm saying.)

I think...the distrust is not in them, but rather...in myself?

Wow, some more great and difficult questions. But yes, it IS distrust in yourself and not others. I think a lot of what you are describing is probably common for most folks as they go through the aging process. And I don't mean just the physical changes, most importantly the collective experiences you have gathered as each day passes.

Perhaps you are allowing too much outside stimulus affect your reasoning skills and judgement calls. Maybe you are listening to the outside world, and allowing it to shape your morality. Stupid example for you. Lets say you have a nice short mini-skirt that you like to wear out with your friends on a Friday night. It fits you well, it makes you look hot, and you've picked up a couple of men here and there wearing it. Now what if some day you were in an elevator with 2 other women, when the doors opened and a woman close to your age entered the elevator wearing a similar skirt. That woman exits a couple floors later, and you now over hear the original 2 women's comments about the girl dressed in a similar fashion as you on Friday night. They make all kinds of catty comments like...."can you believe a woman HER age would wear that", "wow what a slutty look that is", "why would someone with such hideous legs put that one". Now you may not even consciously remember that conversation, but it COULD affect you on an unconscious level weeks later when you grab that skirt off your hanger. It may not look as appealling to you for whatever reason, and because of the mocking bitterness from those women has been implanted in your head.....your perspective of that skirt may now be tainted.

What I'm trying to say, is that as each day goes on we are exposed to more and more differing views of morality. Whether its bumping around a message board, watching a talk show, or just overhearing a conversation in an elevator.....you are hearing/witnessing new stimulus every day, and sometimes it DOES change your perspectives and value system. Its like the old saying...."I wish I knew at 20 what I knew now, my life would be so different". OF COURSE IT WOULD! Because you have so many different experiences to fall back on since you were 20, and your value system has changed over the years.

I guess the only advice I can give you is reread Fuck's posts above. He is describing it much better than I am here. Go through life pretending some doctor or mystical being has given you a "death warrant". Pretend like you know that you won't be around October 1st. Get busy living TODAY, and throw your conscience or guilt aside. Because truly.....when you wash away the guilt, the salary you make, the car you drive, the "things" you have accumulated....it all means SQUAT. All you really have at your disposal is this hour, this minute, THIS SECOND! Don't let fears or morality disputes with yourself get in the way of making the absolute most of it. If you see that hot guy at the bar and want to fuck his brains out, just go and DO IT. Quit worrying about the moral implications about your actions, or if he'll call you tomorrow, or you have a busy afternoon the next day and you could use some rest. Fuck it all! Just go have fun, because for all you know you could be walking out the door of that bar and stumble on a crack in the pavement, fall and break your neck. Then when you are spending the rest of your life as a quadrapalegic.....would you be asking yourself, gee I wonder what tomorrow is going to bring.....or would you be wishing to have that chance to get up out of your crippled state and do things RIGHT NOW?

A world of human beings can exist without marriage.


Tell that to my boyfriend and I'll fucking kill you.

:)


DaGuru,OC6, very awesome discussion you're having here. I'd like to join in but then I think it would..deteriorate.

Ya know oc6.....its perfectly fine to love me in a non-romantic, non-attached, but extremely SEXUAL nature. Fap to my essence and the world is a better place! : )

Seriously though......think of yourself as a hamster on the wheel. Running, running, running......always trying to get somewhere. You've got that business plan, all of your efforts are laid out, you've put much energy into it. While you've done all that running a couple of other hamsters have visited your cage from time to time. They want to play, frolic, maybe even fuck. But noooooo, you've got a plan....its all for the best, once your running is done......you'll have a bigger cage, nicer wheel, even MORE people will want to come over and play. Well what happens if some day that great big hand in the sky says...."fuck it, she doesn't need this wheel any more...lets just give her a bigger water bowl". At that point all you'll do is look back on all the fun you COULD have had, and think of what a waste of time all that running was.

Its funny, but having this back and forth discourse with you....is kind of making me chuckle. I realize that much of what I'm saying to you, is very similar to why I got laid so much in my life. It wasn't because I had the nicest car, or biggest dick, or the best looks. Nope, its because if I could have just an hour of alone time with a chick.....I could get them to better understand my whole mindset of....."to hell with it, all I have is today.....yeah, lets fuck!"

Just remember most of what "guilt" and "shame" is....is nothing more than a profound head game that your brain plays with yourself. It is just a measuring stick for self-abuse. All you have to do is find a way to break that stick in half, (or even smaller) and start reassessing/remeasuring your actions.....and you'll find more joy in those actions.

Tell that to my boyfriend and I'll fucking kill you.

:)


DaGuru,OC6, very awesome discussion you're having here. I'd like to join in but then I think it would..deteriorate.


Nah, just jump in and throw in your 2 cents. That is half the fun with these kinds of threads.....ya never know what kind of twists, turns and bumps they are going to take. Kinda like life! That is half the fun.....enjoying the journey, and embrace the "adventure" and "mystery" of it all.

Now you may not even consciously remember that conversation, but it COULD affect you on an unconscious level weeks later when you grab that skirt off your hanger. It may not look as appealling to you for whatever reason, and because of the mocking bitterness from those women has been implanted in your head.....your perspective of that skirt may now be tainted.

What I'm trying to say, is that as each day goes on we are exposed to more and more differing views of morality. Whether its bumping around a message board, watching a talk show, or just overhearing a conversation in an elevator.....you are hearing/witnessing new stimulus every day, and sometimes it DOES change your perspectives and value system.

This is EXACTLY what I'm trying to say here: People's depression is not even their own. You put a kid in a world of clowns, he is going to laugh at first, and then eventually he is going to wear the clown makeup himself, walk like a clown, act like a clown. THis is a means of survival in a way, but now it's getting to the point where it's like OK, youve got food, an apartment, internet and tv, and enough money to save a little each month plus a job that isn't too physically demanding.

WELL WTF. Do more with what you have now and stop dreaming of riches. We ARE at the top, yet our minds are always hungry for more... this is the life, this is the gift, enjoy it now! Its not that I dont want a marriage or want to be different, it's that I dont NEED that shit. I've had nice jobs and terrible jobs and I will say the jobs have become meaningless, it's the PEOPLE that really make the workplace what it is. People are not something you can change, no matter how many times you switch jobs or chase your career.

Im not bitter really. Im just saddened by this world that people really think this is all there is. Every time I say what I like to do people go "oooh, I should do that" I feel like shooting them. THEN FUCKING GO DO IT. Christ, who is stopping you besides the human mind's collection of social norms... People who have said "this is wrong to do" might be dead but their thoughts still linger on... it's the voice of the past that is conditioning us to truly lie to ourselves EVERY DAY.... So when I see things like this, things like "I think it's a good idea to not have sex until this this and that" it's the same person that says "I think Im gonna do this career and it will make me happy" I think Im gonna live only at the last moment, on the right day, some time in the distant future. Know what? That's called dreaming. Not even dreaming because dreams are more real, that's called wishful thinking. Wishful thinking is a waste of time, and I truly feel that marriage, as well as 90% of the ads on tv and the radio are based on wishful thinking, pampering the ego and a general dullness that is sadly accepted, and probably the reason americans are made fun of so much....This is not all life has to be.

WELL WTF. Do more with what you have now and stop dreaming of riches. We ARE at the top, yet our minds are always hungry for more... this is the life, this is the gift, enjoy it now! Its not that I dont want a marriage or want to be different, it's that I dont NEED that shit. I've had nice jobs and terrible jobs and I will say the jobs have become meaningless, it's the PEOPLE that really make the workplace what it is. People are not something you can change, no matter how many times you switch jobs or chase your career.



QFMFT!

If every human being could read, understand and live out those words...the world would be such a better place. Everything you described above is why I sincerely believe the capititalistic democracy that many of us live in......does actually more harm than good. Sure in a theoretical sense its nice to have the opportunity to strive for better things. But look at the end result. People for the most part are NOT happy. Think of all the time lost/wasted while trying to climb the corporate ladder. Fighting, clawing, searching for more education. All the overtime, all the sacrifices, all the blood sweat and tears. And what gets lost in the middle of that? Quality time with friends/family.....free time to pursue more enjoyable interests......basically just time in general stopping to smell the roses.

This is why I believe those forms of government that are closer to socialism/communism actually make for a more happier populace. If you wake up every day and realize this is the apex of your existence, then you will make do better with what you have. And you'll have more of an appreciation for it. There would be no reason to have to drop the kids off at daycare while you are spending 2 hours a night trying to get that degree. Because there wouldn't be that constant carrot dangling in front of you to chase.

As for me and my wife, everything you just said above is why I'm so happy with her and she will be my partner for eternity. I wasn't "looking" for her, and was perfectly happy just playing around and content with my aloneness. I was settled in my heart for quite a few years that I didn't "need" anyone, that I was completely capable to go about my life by myself. But WHAM! there she was, and when I realized the incredible person she was.....then and only then did I commit my life to her. But I didn't "need" her in the least, she ENHANCES my life......not define it!

I just want to say something regarding "work". For some people, the work they do is also a part of taking time to smell the roses. For other people it's just something they have to do. If a person's work is also a part of their passion, then that happiness will also flow outward toward family and friends, and people in general.

Like with your wife, can it not also enhance your life?


I understand that concept completely, and while in theory it sounds great.....I truly believe in practical application it is very rare to find someone that still has that passion. You are describing an "ideal" situation, and the realist in me doesn't see that happening very often.

I'll give you a real life example. A friend of my loves animals, and up until a couple months ago was a dog groomer. She loved it! The only problem was the bullshit office politics she had to deal with inside the vet's place where she was employed to do that grooming. She ended up butting heads with a couple of the office staff, who not so surprisingly was related to one of the doctors. Now while the essence of her job gave her "pleasure" or "fulfillment".....everything else surrounding that job was headache after headache, and there was no passion any more....just a job. You could probably say to her...."go find a different vet", yet the probability of other nonsense rearing its head is quite probable. She COULD think about opening her own business, but without the proper funding that is more than likely just a dream. Add to the fact all the other beuracratic nonsense you have to endure when owning your own business, and those nuances do sap the life and energy from you.

I won't even get into the fact that very few recent college grads are working jobs that have anything to do with what their degree entails. Sure they went into college saying "I want to do this", but then once on the streets searching for that job they'll take anything that pays the bills once they start piling up. And then you wake up 10 years later, and wonder where those passions went. Dog groomer, college grad, whatever......it sounds nice to find "passion" in something you can make money from, but the truth is for MOST folks it is all just a means to an end.

oc6.....I think you have either been very lucky, or perhaps more laid back than me, or maybe its just my standards/description for "passion in your work" is higher than yours.

Actually, what you and I are discussing is very similar to a conversation I had with my therapist a couple of weeks ago. That passion for a career. At 37 I have been exposed to so many jobs, careers, industries. And there is NOT ONE that I can imagine doing where I would have that "passion" that you describe. If you had a magic wand and wave it saying....."poof, tomorrow you'll wake up with the skills, education and career of ________" I would be completely clueless as to how to fill that blank. It would probably be somewhere between porno star, poker player, or football analyst. But it would still just be a means to an end. It is what I HAVE to do to pay the bills. Something diverting me from recreation time and spending it with my friends/family.

Now if there was only a way to engage in intellectual discourse on message forums and make money while doing it! : )