Why I Am Agnostic.

Though I know there is plenty of these threads to go around, I don't think most of the atheists in this forum made any points. I am not atheist, I believe in a higher power. No one can truely estimate how the universe came to be, and science will never be able to prove what was before us. There is no true way to measure time in a linear way as it is infinite. Therefore we can never even attempt to explain a fraction of what existed before. It was what is and should never be. The only thing I'm trying to explain is why I don't believe in a god in a religious sense.

I'd like to start this off by saying I was once deeply religious. A friend of mine got me into god by explaining the idea behind the rapture. I dedicated most of my early life to preparing for the end. I was going to fight the anti-christ, and convert as many as possible before someone, anyone decided to end my life. I prepared arguments, and argued with atheists to reinforce my faith. I attended church camp, my faith grew stronger every day. Then, inexplicably, I began to question my teachings. I read many religious texts, and I compared statistics for different religions.

Suddenly, my life had changed. It all became one big question. I confronted the head of my youth group about this. I told him I didn't think I could believe anymore. The only thing he could tell me is: "You have to push, force Jesus back into your life."

His words echoed into my head for the following months. I talked to preachers, religious scientists, and many others. I kept asking questions until I realized something: There is no proof that god exists. None, nadda, zip. The only thing that christianity has is the dead-sea scrolls, which are hardly proof. Archeologists used the fact that they were very prolific scrolls to verify their legibility (and I really wanted to believe it was true.) I looked into this more and found that it was duty of most religious monks to copy the bible all day every day.

It took a while, but eventually I realized that there was no proof, only faith. The church continued to tell me "faith gets you into heaven, not knowledge." So there was no way to prove god exists, and the only thing that got you into heaven was faith. That lead me to my final question: "Why would God play this game with us?" A shitty Keanu Reeves movie was not enough to answer that goddamned question. A just and perfect god would not make a deal with the devil to prove a point. A just and perfect god would not let men who speak of him rape children. A just and perfect god would not need your money...

So, I turned to hinduism. The Bhagavad-Gita explained many things christianity did not in a very poetic book. it explained how gods were everywhere. Naturally, however, they had no proof either. So, I played a game of religious musical chairs. Running around in circles, with room for one less religion each time until it came down to me, myself, and I.

I went in and a minister said: "The bible says there is a god. It holds many true historical events. It's likely to be true." Okay, but that does not explain whether or not there is a god. Then I fell apon this quote, it changed my entire life: Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. Of course it didn't seem like much. But I realized that my questions would never be answered. The church existed to deceive. The Vatican had coerced us out of happy lives of hedonistic ignorance into fear and self-loathing. The church exploited the fear of many in order to create their veiw of the perfect world. This is not what Jesus would have wanted, nor is it what Moses wanted when he made the ten commandments. It's not what Ram wanted when he wrote his beautiful poetry. It's not what Buddha wanted when he created his prefects. The laws were created to bring us together, not tear us apart. As long as seperate religions exist, we will remain divided. As long as the end is fortold we will fear it.

I fell apart and had a complete religious breakdown. I got really depressed. I looked down on the religious for arguing with atheists and atheists for their complete refusal to believe anything. Finally, something cracked. Whoever god is, he didn't make the rules. Rules are made by men. Whoever god is, he doesn't want us to fear him. Using fear is imperfect, and I was taught to believe God is perfect. Fear is created by men. Lastly, god doesn't care if you believe or not. Ambivalence is a perfect emotion. Apathy is an expression of perfection. Whatever, whoever, wherever god is, he doesn't care if we believe. I can fuck, fight, swear and it's okay. God doesn't need my fear. He doesn't need my beleif. He sure as fuck doesn't need my money. I live free knowing this. Maybe somebody will read this and change. Maybe not. Maybe I've got too much time. I don't believe in god because I have the freedom not to. That's all I need.

[jackketch]

Originally Posted by H4T3

The only thing that christianity has is the dead-sea scrolls, which are hardly proof..

No you are wrong.

As proof of what?

And I can name several other such finds.

Nag Hammadi being the best known.

Originally Posted by jackketch

No you are wrong.

As proof of what?

And I can name several other such finds.

Nag Hammadi being the best known.

"No, you are wrong?" That's all I get? Try harder, Jack.

Nag Hammadi, big whoop. Texts do not constitute proof. It's illogical to believe in text just because it tells you to, don't you think?

Originally Posted by H4T3

I was taught to believe God is perfect.

Oops.

[jackketch]

Originally Posted by H4T3

"No, you are wrong?" That's all I get? Try harder, Jack.

Nag Hammadi, big whoop. Texts do not constitute proof. It's illogical to believe in text just because it tells you to, don't you think?

You were the one who claimed that all christianity had were texts. I merely pointed out that that you were wrong and that there were far more text finds than just the DSS.

As to what you think the texts prove or disprove I am (still) unclear.

Edit* NB i was criticising your command of history not your beliefs (in case i was unclear).

[H a r o l d]

Well thank goodness you broke free of that shit, for many do not even until the day they die and to me that seems a terrible fate...

[AngryFemme]

Originally Posted by H4T3

As long as seperate religions exist, we will remain divided.

This division being IN SPITE OF what we believe. Whether you give God a name or not, or assign him any purpose (or no purpose) in the Universe, there's really no affecting the end, which is inevitable regardless of what you believe. We may all think differently, but we die all the same.

All of this spiritual soul-searching won't amount to a hill of beans once your consciousness expires upon death. I'd hate for my last glimmer of a thought to be expended on wondering if I was right or not. It's not like feelings of triumph or regret will be present once you've expired.

[Punk_Rocker_22]

Too Long / Didn't Read

But I'll still post my opinion.

I think its foolish to belive in god because there is no proof he exists.
I think its foolish to not belive in god because there is no proof thaat he doesn't exist.
The same applies to Flying Spageti Monster, ect.

So my belif is that if there is a god or not, it doesn't matter because even if there is a god he apparently doesn't give a shit seeing as he never interviens with this world. If he doesn't give a shit then why am I going to waste time going to church when I could be doing somthing productive like curing cancer or eating babies. So I don't think god (if there is one) is part of my life and is therefor irrelevent.

Side note: jackketch is right most of the time, so perhaps you should step back and consider that you're the one whos wrong.

Now I'm going to go eat lunch. BBQ Chicken, yum!

[AngryFemme]

Originally Posted by Punk_Rocker_22

Side note: jackketch is right most of the time

Except for when he's wrong, of course.

[jackketch]

Originally Posted by AngryFemme

Except for when he's wrong, of course.

so pretty much most days then?

[AngryFemme]

O jack.

You know that just isn't so.

*pets a mod*

Originally Posted by H4T3

Though I know there is plenty of these threads to go around, I don't think most of the atheists in this forum made any points. I am not atheist, I believe in a higher power... [...]

Didn't read the rest... you are not an Agnostic you are a Deist.

Originally Posted by Jove

Didn't read the rest... you are not an Agnostic you are a Deist.

You need to pay attention. I believe in a higher power, a higher state of conciousness after death. These things can range from reincarnation to a literal god in the sky. I don't know exactly what I believe, all I know is that there is something after death.

Originally posted by Jackketch
You were the one who claimed that all christianity had were texts. I merely pointed out that that you were wrong and that there were far more text finds than just the DSS.

As to what you think the texts prove or disprove I am (still) unclear.

Edit* NB i was criticising your command of history not your beliefs (in case i was unclear).

Awkward...

I don't believe any texts could prove that there is a god in the sky that's going to smite non-believers. It wasn't the lack of texts they had that turned me off of christianity, it was simply the overexaggeration of the importance of the texts that they had. Ya me? It was a rather widespread religion in the middle-ages and I believe many people could have written different books and parallel chapters. You know, we do have lots of cults nowadays that people actually believe, such as Mormanism, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc. that add on to the bible with seperate belief systems. That's why I believe the other texts people have found could simply be a cult development.

I'm not saying the texts prove or disprove anything. I'm just saying that it's not enough evidence to win my faith. Thanks for playing.

[xilikeeggs0]

OP, I believe this pretty much sums up your post:

'Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?'
- Epicurus

muahaha.

Originally Posted by H4T3

You need to pay attention. I believe in a higher power, a higher state of conciousness after death. These things can range from reincarnation to a literal god in the sky. I don't know exactly what I believe, all I know is that there is something after death.[...]

The fact that you "believe" anything in regards to divinity precludes you from being in any way shape or form an Agnostic... you are a Deist, wake up and smell the mocha.

[nshanin]

Originally Posted by H4T3

all I know is that there is something after death.

All I know is that there are aliens in the core of Jupiter.
All I know is that the Sun is an absolute vacuum.
All I know is that I do cold fusion every time I ejaculate.
All I know is that [insert more random semi-falsifiable yet still undisprovable bullshit here].

When the electrical signals in your brain go out (aka brain death), you officially have no conscience, no functioning mind, and no "soul", and because your body decomposes, there's nothing that can happen to you after death other than decomposition.

Originally Posted by H4T3

Though I know there is plenty of these threads to go around, I don't think most of the atheists in this forum made any points. I am not atheist, I believe in a higher power. No one can truely estimate how the universe came to be, and science will never be able to prove what was before us. There is no true way to measure time in a linear way as it is infinite. Therefore we can never even attempt to explain a fraction of what existed before. It was what is and should never be. The only thing I'm trying to explain is why I don't believe in a god in a religious sense.

I'd like to start this off by saying I was once deeply religious. A friend of mine got me into god by explaining the idea behind the rapture. I dedicated most of my early life to preparing for the end. I was going to fight the anti-christ, and convert as many as possible before someone, anyone decided to end my life. I prepared arguments, and argued with atheists to reinforce my faith. I attended church camp, my faith grew stronger every day. Then, inexplicably, I began to question my teachings. I read many religious texts, and I compared statistics for different religions.

Suddenly, my life had changed. It all became one big question. I confronted the head of my youth group about this. I told him I didn't think I could believe anymore. The only thing he could tell me is: "You have to push, force Jesus back into your life."

His words echoed into my head for the following months. I talked to preachers, religious scientists, and many others. I kept asking questions until I realized something: There is no proof that god exists. None, nadda, zip. The only thing that christianity has is the dead-sea scrolls, which are hardly proof. Archeologists used the fact that they were very prolific scrolls to verify their legibility (and I really wanted to believe it was true.) I looked into this more and found that it was duty of most religious monks to copy the bible all day every day.

It took a while, but eventually I realized that there was no proof, only faith. The church continued to tell me "faith gets you into heaven, not knowledge." So there was no way to prove god exists, and the only thing that got you into heaven was faith. That lead me to my final question: "Why would God play this game with us?" A shitty Keanu Reeves movie was not enough to answer that goddamned question. A just and perfect god would not make a deal with the devil to prove a point. A just and perfect god would not let men who speak of him rape children. A just and perfect god would not need your money...

So, I turned to hinduism. The Bhagavad-Gita explained many things christianity did not in a very poetic book. it explained how gods were everywhere. Naturally, however, they had no proof either. So, I played a game of religious musical chairs. Running around in circles, with room for one less religion each time until it came down to me, myself, and I.

I went in and a minister said: "The bible says there is a god. It holds many true historical events. It's likely to be true." Okay, but that does not explain whether or not there is a god. Then I fell apon this quote, it changed my entire life: Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. Of course it didn't seem like much. But I realized that my questions would never be answered. The church existed to deceive. The Vatican had coerced us out of happy lives of hedonistic ignorance into fear and self-loathing. The church exploited the fear of many in order to create their veiw of the perfect world. This is not what Jesus would have wanted, nor is it what Moses wanted when he made the ten commandments. It's not what Ram wanted when he wrote his beautiful poetry. It's not what Buddha wanted when he created his prefects. The laws were created to bring us together, not tear us apart. As long as seperate religions exist, we will remain divided. As long as the end is fortold we will fear it.

I fell apart and had a complete religious breakdown. I got really depressed. I looked down on the religious for arguing with atheists and atheists for their complete refusal to believe anything. Finally, something cracked. Whoever god is, he didn't make the rules. Rules are made by men. Whoever god is, he doesn't want us to fear him. Using fear is imperfect, and I was taught to believe God is perfect. Fear is created by men. Lastly, god doesn't care if you believe or not. Ambivalence is a perfect emotion. Apathy is an expression of perfection. Whatever, whoever, wherever god is, he doesn't care if we believe. I can fuck, fight, swear and it's okay. God doesn't need my fear. He doesn't need my beleif. He sure as fuck doesn't need my money. I live free knowing this. Maybe somebody will read this and change. Maybe not. Maybe I've got too much time. I don't believe in god because I have the freedom not to. That's all I need.

God is Perfection, (according to you)apathy is perfection, apathy is emo(according to that awesome song), therefore God is emo.

Originally Posted by xilikeeggs0

OP, I believe this pretty much sums up your post:

'Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?'
- Epicurus

muahaha.

Two Problems.

In Number two, It does not mean he is malevolent just not benevolent. Whats wrong with a semi-benevolent God

In number three, Maybe there is no evil, only minor inconveniences. Eg: The holocaust, one of the smallest genocides in history, is pretty fucking small when it comes to the whole fucking universe.

My view on religion is that nobody has any fucking idea whats going on. How could you? In my opinion people should just stop feeling so strongly about somethings you can't be sure about until you die. There is exactly as much of a chance that the universe was farted out of a giant chickens ass, as there is that some almighty guy said "let there be life", But science is only taking clues, and making a conclusion. Like if you see milk spilled on the florr, you think it tipped off the counter, but you have no idea wether or not some one poured that milk. Of course there are some cool religons, and hell the stories from the bible can teach you some good morals, and jesus *the actual person* was a great guy, but how could you have any idea that he was the son of god? .....i have no idea how to finish this up......uh

SHAZZAM! *poof of smoke*

[IanBoyd3]

Originally Posted by Jove

The fact that you "believe" anything in regards to divinity precludes you from being in any way shape or form an Agnostic... you are a Deist, wake up and smell the mocha.

Grr, beat me to it.

You're not Clarence Darrow

[Spike Spiegel]

Originally Posted by H4T3

I fell apart and had a complete religious breakdown. I got really depressed. I looked down on the religious for arguing with atheists and atheists for their complete refusal to believe anything.

Firstly, You just said that you looked down on atheists for " not believing in anything". Perhaps you should do more research into atheism, may I suggest www.richarddawkins.net ?

Finally, something cracked. Whoever god is, he didn't make the rules. Rules are made by men. Whoever god is, he doesn't want us to fear him. Using fear is imperfect, and I was taught to believe God is perfect.

Once again, you are relying on the ASSUMPTION that god exists in the first place. I know it can be easy to believe that in the very beginning, god created everything, It is very reassuring. BUT, who created god then? It can go on and on, but we as human beings must rely on the current evidence we have before us to strive towards that answer of "what was in the beginning?". But the one thing we obviously should not do, is say "god was in the beginning" and revolve our science and everyday lives around it. We must constantly strive towards finding answers, not proclaiming that we have them despite proof, such as the church does.

Fear is created by men. Lastly, god doesn't care if you believe or not. Ambivalence is a perfect emotion. Apathy is an expression of perfection. Whatever, whoever, wherever god is, he doesn't care if we believe. I can fuck, fight, swear and it's okay. God doesn't need my fear. He doesn't need my beleif. He sure as fuck doesn't need my money. I live free knowing this. Maybe somebody will read this and change. Maybe not. Maybe I've got too much time. I don't believe in god because I have the freedom not to. That's all I need.

You are still relying on the assumption that god exists in the first place. I'd say you would make a good Atheist. On Dawkins Scale in his new book, I'd say you are a lvl 5(?) Agnostic, But still leaning towards Atheism.

Originally Posted by Spike Spiegel

Firstly, You just said that you looked down on atheists for " not believing in anything". Perhaps you should do more research into atheism, may I suggest www.richarddawkins.net ?



Once again, you are relying on the ASSUMPTION that god exists in the first place. I know it can be easy to believe that in the very beginning, god created everything, It is very reassuring. BUT, who created god then? It can go on and on, but we as human beings must rely on the current evidence we have before us to strive towards that answer of "what was in the beginning?". But the one thing we obviously should not do, is say "god was in the beginning" and revolve our science and everyday lives around it. We must constantly strive towards finding answers, not proclaiming that we have them despite proof, such as the church does.



You are still relying on the assumption that god exists in the first place. I'd say you would make a good Atheist. On Dawkins Scale in his new book, I'd say you are a lvl 5(?) Agnostic, But still leaning towards Atheism.

I don't look down on atheism, I feel the world needs them.

My assumption that god exists is self-evident. I look at the universe in a non-existential way. The constant changing of matter along with growing entropy of the universe shows that there is something acting as a catalyst. But, as I said, now is not the time for me to get into that. Even if God doesn't exist, fuck it. Seriously? I'm agnostic because I stopped caring and I question too much to live by a bunch of silly little rules on some peice of stone.

[Brady]

Originally Posted by Punk_Rocker_22

Too Long / Didn't Read

But I'll still post my opinion.

Me too!!!!

I consider myself agnostic. I don't subscribe to any major religion.

I believe that if I live my life morally and well, I will be accepted into whatever 'heaven' might exist. No god would send good people to hell for no other reason than not really believing in him. I live a fairly good, moral life; I like to think the good things I do more then compensate for my bad ones. If there is some divine afterlife, I'll be there, because I try every day to be a good person. Not because I devote myself to one divine entity or another.

[Spike Spiegel]

Originally Posted by H4T3

I don't look down on atheism, I feel the world needs them.

My assumption that god exists is self-evident. I look at the universe in a non-existential way. The constant changing of matter along with growing entropy of the universe shows that there is something acting as a catalyst. But, as I said, now is not the time for me to get into that. Even if God doesn't exist, fuck it. Seriously? I'm agnostic because I stopped caring and I question too much to live by a bunch of silly little rules on some peice of stone.

Yep, which is why you'd make a good Atheist

Just because you see a "force" moving the universe, does not mean that it is god. Man thought the Sun was a god, to which we must offer sacrifices, but now we know different. As I am sure this "force" you speak of, will be eventually learned, and eventually taught in future elementary schools.

[Spike Spiegel]

Originally Posted by Brady

Me too!!!!

I consider myself agnostic. I don't subscribe to any major religion.

I believe that if I live my life morally and well, I will be accepted into whatever 'heaven' might exist. No god would send good people to hell for no other reason than not really believing in him. I live a fairly good, moral life; I like to think the good things I do more then compensate for my bad ones. If there is some divine afterlife, I'll be there, because I try every day to be a good person. Not because I devote myself to one divine entity or another.

Once again, I believe people such as this make good candidates for Atheism, they just need to go one step further, arggg, I hate fence-sitters.

I can come to agree with you OP.

Only thing is I might end up converting to something if I find myself on a deathbed, just hoping that there is something that will accept me in death.

[---Beany---]

Originally Posted by Spike Spiegel

Just because you see a "force" moving the universe, does not mean that it is god.

Perhaps people acknowledged the "Force" and decided to name it "God".
And if science can explain it in the future it wouldn't make it any less real. It just means we can now understand that same thing "scientifically" as apposed to figuratively.

Originally Posted by H4T3

big whoop

are
you
a
h o mo s e x u a l?

[pyro110]

very well written and i agree with you on most points. especially on how religion is supposed to help us get along not break us(humanity) apart.

" Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned."
I dont really agree with that quote but i just wanted to point out that philosophy is the STUDY of those questions not the questions themselves. and the grammer kinda sucks the way its worded

I think satanism is a good religion for you, since youre well acquainted with christianity. From my understanding, satanists dont believe the concept of Satan or the devil to be a deity, but rather as a metaphor for freedom. The only god in Satanism is yourself.

[nshanin]

i'd be a satanist but i'd never admit it, society would never let me live it down... publicly im agnostic because nobody likes an atheist (specially where i live)