In the book of Genesis it says that God forbade Adam and Eve from eating from the tree of knowledge.
Satan told them to rebel against God and eat from the tree, thus gaining intelligence. My question is this, if God wanted humans to remain simple dumb animals but Satan wanted mankind to be intelligent, then why do you worship God?
Why not Satan, who, by your beliefs, gave you the ability to actually believe in a god in the first place.

Uhm if I recall my bible rightly it says a serpent and not anything about some mystical Über-Bad á la Buffy.

Uhm if I recall my bible rightly it says a serpent and not anything about some mystical Über-Bad á la Buffy.

I thought it was meant to be a manifestation of Satan?
Ah well, why don't you worship a serpent then?

I thought it was meant to be a manifestation of Satan?
Ah well, why don't you worship a serpent then?

Not sure where you get that 'manifestation of satan' bit, but ahm a'guessin you bin a listerning to dem chris-ti-ans agin, boy.

Why on earth would I want to worship a serpent?

Not sure where you get that 'manifestation of satan' bit, but ahm a'guessin you bin a listerning to dem chris-ti-ans agin, boy.

Why on earth would I want to worship a serpent?

I'm an atheist so I don't know why you would want to worship anything in the first place.
But, God wanted to keep humans stupid, you wouldn't have the intelligence to believe in a God if it wasn't for the Serpent telling Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of knowledge.
Surely, if you wanted to believe in something, you would choose the benevolent serpent rather than the evil god that tried to restrict human development?

It's because all true christians are dumb. Like 'god' intended.

oK i LOL'D...i shouldn't have I know but..

+ rep :)

I'm playing the devil's (or god's) advocate here, as I'm athiest, but a christian could argue, and make a good case for, that we humans were better off in the garden of eden, before we got all our smarts and technologiae

Yes. But if it wasn't for intelligence (However limited) then Christians would not be capable of believing in a god because they wouldn't have imagination and creativity.
Yet they still worship a god that tried to stop them from gaining intelligence. The Serpent is truely benevolent for aiding human progress, God is evil for hindering it.

it's a story in the bible that isn't true and never happened and is meant to teach a lesson like a lot of fucking shit in the bible.

Lol, true. I just wanted to see what a Christian answer would be.
Wait a minute. Didn't I get into a massive debate with you a while back about the morality of religion in which you backed up the Christians?

Not to go off topic, but where do people get the idea that the snake in Genesis is Satan? I was told that when I was younger, but when I looked for it myself in the actual story, there was nothing whatsoever.

It's probably from a variant pseudo-religion.

Ya think? You might be surprised. Like all 'myths' the biblical ones do infact tend to be true or based in truth.

Problem is actually understanding what the original author was saying.

I've done a couple of threads in the past showing that the major difficulty in understanding what the bible says is the gloss that centuries of christians have put on it.

From verses like this which they then arse rape into refering to some supernatural Über Nasty.

Ezekiel 28:

11 The word of the LORD came to me: 12 "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'You were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald,
chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
sapphire, [b] turquoise and beryl. [c]
Your settings and mountings [d] were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.

Uhm if I recall my bible rightly it says a serpent and not anything about some mystical Über-Bad á la Buffy.

Ylour completely retarded! it was Satan you retard in the form of a serpent! what idiots quite making up shit to argue about, your guys lack of knowledge of the bible forbids you to incorreclty mention any of its passages! As i am not allowed to do the same to the koran out of ignorance!

Ya think? You might be surprised. Like all 'myths' the biblical ones do infact tend to be true or based in truth.

What kind of truths do you mean? If you mean truths to do with the human condition, then it's possible they had much to say for their time but little for modern man as social structures do change to an extent, effecting how people look at one another and interact with their surroundings. But I do personally think that all religious texts have at least some valid snippets to do with this condition.

Problem is actually understanding what the original author was saying.

Is that even possible in such archaic texts? I guess it could be, but it would take a lot of work. For example, you would first have to try and figure when the text was written and then study history books on the everyday lives of individuals in that specific time frame, something I'm not sure we have much information on, just to see where he was contingently coming from within a historical framework.

What kind of truths do you mean? If you mean truths to do with the human condition, then it's possible they had much to say for their time but

Nope I meant 'true' as in historical fact (according to the normal historian's rules of evidence)



Is that even possible in such archaic texts? I guess it could be, but it would take a lot of work. For example, you would first have to try and figure when the text was written and then study history books on the everyday lives of individuals in that specific time frame, something I'm not sure we have much information on, just to see where he was contingently coming from within a historical framework.

There are parts of bible where it is impossible but often at least we can get a fair idea of what the author wasn't saying.

Also discoveries (archeology) keep on being made and each one brings us a little closer.

Ylour completely retarded! it was Satan you retard in the form of a serpent! what idiots quite making up shit to argue about, your guys lack of knowledge of the bible forbids you to incorreclty mention any of its passages! As i am not allowed to do the same to the koran out of ignorance!

If only you were not allowed to post here for reasons of ignorance.

Why on earth would I want to worship a serpent?

well my ex-girlfriend loved the man-snake

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_and_Eve

This should explain the origin of some of the elements of the story, such as the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Note that it is not just "Tree of Knowledge". Presumably this is something that would take away their innocence. There is also a Tree of Life in the garden, but it doesn't mention whether Adam and Eve eat from it (in any case, God does not forbid eating from it).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iblis

I found this while looking around. It's the main Islamic demon; the equivalent of Christianity's Satan. And in the Islamic version of the story of Adam and Eve, it is Iblis that tempts them into eating the forbidden fruit.

I think it's a very good question.

I think it makes more sense to assume the story isn't literal (I don't believe it is anyway, but then i'm not a fundi-Christian, i'm agnostic), but it introduces the concept of temptation; being turned away from God's infinite love by the love of material objects or even of this very life. To me it seems like whilst the snake isn't the devil, it's carrying out a similar role through temptations. The devil has no real power though, thus why I don't see why anyone would worship him. The devil only serves the purpose of making mankind doubt, there's a famous quote "the greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist". I guess for Christians this exposes the limitations in the devil's power, he can't create his own followers, or even "defeat" God (if he would even want to?) instead he uses cunning to feed upon the temptation and doubts of men.

I guess I don't really understand this message either really, it does seem that God is willing to let mankind be tempted and fall from grace, which makes it seem like our purpose WAS to be thrown out of the garden (or at least it's kinda saying that in this world we always will and always have faced such temptations since we gained the ability to contemplate).

I dunno, it's a matter of faith, you need to have faith in God's benevolent nature and purpose for mankind, but to me it doesn't seem to make sense to regard leaving Eden as this fall that can and should have been avoided, sure it exposes how we can act selfishly and deviate from our "purpose" but I don't agree at all with the whole Catholic Dogma - "you're all sinful and terrible" kind of stuff. Reading the story never makes me think that at all really, it's more offering guidance for such situations in future; maybe that whilst choosing the "bad path" can have seemingly good consequences, there's always a limit to it because of the very nature of temptation...

Here's a Christian response:

The Bible says that God created Adam and Eve and put them in a beautiful garden full of trees with good fruit. However, God also created a tree that would give the eater the knowledge of good and evil - commanding Adam and Eve not to eat its fruit. Why would God create something that was banned and, specifically, why would it be a tree whose fruit offered knowledge of good and evil?

Skeptics often complain that God set Adam and Eve up to fail. However, God had to give Adam and Eve a choice. Without free will to choose, Adam and Eve would have been mere puppets. True love always requires choice. God wanted Adam and Eve to choose to love and trust Him. The only way to give this choice would have been to command something that was not allowed. Since God had planted in the garden all the different trees from which we now get fruit, the test was not too difficult. Adam and Eve had plenty to eat and a large variety of fruits from which to choose, and could have chosen to believe God.

Since everything else God planted in the garden was good, the natural choice of something to choose from would be knowledge of evil. God's plan for Adam and Eve was to enjoy each other and their fellowship with Him without the influence of evil. God did not want Adam and Eve to experience evil or even know about it. However, Satan had already rebelled against God and then tempted Eve to join him in rebellion against God. Satan used the oldest ploy in his playbook of deceit - God is a cosmic killjoy who is trying to keep something good from you. Satan first asked Eve about the tree from which they were told not to eat. Eve told Satan they were not to eat of the forbidden fruit or they would die. Satan's reply indicated that God was a liar and that He just wanted to keep something good (the fruit) from them, saying, "God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." So, Adam and Eve gained knowledge of the difference between good and evil through direct experience, instead of through instruction by God. The knowledge of evil brought fear and shame to Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:10). So, the knowledge of good and evil was not a good thing, since it ruined their innocent relationship with God.

The "God" in genesis is a blind god(Where are you, Adam?), the demiurge. The serpent isn't "satan" in the evil-devil sense, Satan was one of God's highest angels, and Lucifer was merely the "light-bringer", or in the Gnostic sense of it more of a Jesus-like figure, only blinded by pride.

Genesis is basically the metaphor of the division between material and spiritual.

I Have a question for them:
WHY???????

Look up 'theistic satanism'.

Their belief is actually based around that concept.

The serpent is more of a symbol of mans desires. Much of the bible is symbolic.

Then why not worship the desire to attain knowledge?
Or why not view god as symbolic?

The real question is, imo.
Why did god make the fucking tree in the first place?

Then why not worship the desire to attain knowledge?
Or why not view god as symbolic?



Some knowledge is ok. You seem to see life in terms of all or nothing. There are some things you don't need to know in this world and not knowing it will make you a better person.

They didn't "gain intelligence". They gained knowledge. Lacking knowledge of evil didn't make them dumb, it made them pure and naive. Satan's primary goal in introducing evil to humanity was to drive it away from God, thus condemning us to an eternity of separation from Him.

You have to first understand scripture before you try and question it.

PS - The reason the serpent in the garden is assumed to be Satan is because Satan is characterized as the Deceiver, and the antithesis to God. There were no other creatures created, per scripture, that would seek to thwart God. It is a logical assumption to make.

PS - The reason the serpent in the garden is assumed to be Satan is because Satan is characterized as the Deceiver, and the antithesis to God.

Couldn't it be said that God tried to deceive us by concealing humanity from evil? Like, he tried to make us thing it doesn't exist when it actually does.

God doesn't "try" to do anything. He either does it, or He doesn't. That God created Adam and Eve naive and pure cannot be likened to "deception" any more than a parent keeping knowledge of how to start a proper bonfire can be.

My analogy, however, fails to explain the purpose of Adam and Eve's naivette. It was important that humanity CHOOSE to turn away from God, so that it could bear responsibility. In bearing that responsibility, it also bears the responsibility of seeking forgiveness. This dependent relationship is the foundation for Christianity and Judaism.

Couldn't it be said that God tried to deceive us by concealing humanity from evil? Like, he tried to make us thing it doesn't exist when it actually does.

If he were trying to deceive Adam and Eve, why would he leave a giant tree in the garden called "the tree of knowledge of good and evil"?

I lol'd

At least you admit it is an assumption.

What was that word?

What was that phrase you americans have?

Oh yes..."when you assume, you make an ass out of you and me".

:P

I'll be sure to formulate some form of ad hom about you every time I disagree with your beliefs from now on, just to ensure we remain on an even keel.

ad hom

I love it when you talk dirty!

(its 23:00 here , you can't expect razor sharp intellect from me at this time of night)

Then I suggest you step away from the vehicle and hand me the keys, before somebody gets hurt. :p

LOL


If God , in his Unending Wisdom, had wanted you to have car keys then he would have given you a dick.

And there is no way you're driving me home tonight bebeh, for does it not say in scripture that 'they did sin in a ford'?

:P

LOL


If God , in his Unending Wisdom, had wanted you to have car keys then he would have given you a dick.

I can now see that you were a perfect choice for heading up the religion forum. :D

I can now see that you were a perfect choice for heading up the religion forum. :D

Yes..if christian style misogyny and corny humour are the main qualifications then I shall not be found wanting.

i believe paradise lost answers some of these questions

Yes..if christian style misogyny and corny humour are the main qualifications then I shall not be found wanting.

Christian style misogyny ? Oh, brother...

Christian style misogyny ? Oh, brother...

Thats just what I get accused of sometimes.

Now be quiet woman and go tend to thine husbands needs!

:P

If only you were not allowed to post here for reasons of ignorance.

Your ignorance is greater than mine for the fact i dont spout out my ignorance on a subject, like yourself!!! So does this mean you shouldnt post here niether???

Your ignorance is greater than mine for the fact i dont spout out my ignorance on a subject, like yourself!!! So does this mean you shouldnt post here niether???

Show us you aren't ignorant then, and tell us where in the bible it says the snake was satan.

While your at it, tell me where in the nursery rhyme "Humpty Dumpty" does it say he was an egg.

Letting other people think for you is definitely the easy way out of life Masta. You will earn much more respect, and be a much better person if you stop simply repeating what you are told, and actually think a little for yourself.

So, where does it say satan was the snake then? Or is that what your bible buds told you?

To the OP.

Because Ignorance is Bliss.

I'm christian, btw.

Thats just what I get accused of sometimes.

Now be quiet woman and go tend to thine husbands needs!

:P

So, then, you are officially announcing that you do NOT believe that the New Testament encourages misogyny ?

So, then, you are officially announcing that you do NOT believe that the New Testament encourages misogyny ?

That rather depends on what definition of 'misogyny' you use. But personally I don't think it does.

It wasent that god didnt want us to be intellegent, but simply was testing our abillity to obey/resist. i believe that it was god's intention for the fruit to be eaten, so that we could come into understanding of the importance of "choice"; for it is a necessity of life and progressness!!!!

It wasent that god didnt want us to be intellegent, for it is a necessity of life and progressness!!!!

no comment

You gotta wonder if aspects of that story is a metaphor. I realise it's pure speculation but I wondered if the "forbidden fruit" represented eve's pussy, the snake represented adam cock, which caught eve's eye. She seduced Adam who gave in to temptation and fucked eve for reasons other that repoduction. Thus giving birth to lust. You cannot be truly happy if you lust, so the happy life in eden ended.

Pure speculation, but I can't see how the story would be taken literally.

I don't see how anything can be taken literally as nothing in the material world can be literally true, or at least seen as literally true by humans.

There's about a gazillion different ways you can interpret Genesis. In fact, I think I'll read over it and try to see if I can make an argument supporting the idea that Genesis is really about &T.

IIn fact, I think I'll read over it and try to see if I can make an argument supporting the idea that Genesis is really about &T.

Now that s going to be soooo difficult! [/sarcasm]

:P

I mean,come on...a naked man and woman, ...a tree (surely a file system...the 'knowledge' bit is the clue here).

Well obviously the garden is a symbol for a temple and the fruit represents a screaming electron. When they listened to the snake (Jeff Hunter), they were instantlly filled with knowlege. God (Meta) got pissed off and banned them from the garden of eden (or banned them from SG).

it's not the tree of knowledge. it's the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

in the bible, before they ate the fruit of said tree, they still knew of god and worshipped him. they had no bad intentions and if you think about it, why would they? life's perfect, don't fuck with shit, right? but the fruit gave them the knowledge that there are "good" and "evil" things and they are capable of doing both. why was the tree there in the first place? eh, as a test? or just another part of the mystery of god. but since it's just a story, that's irrelevent anyway.