Ok, first my religious reasons. In the 10 commandments, it states that 'thou shalt not murder'. This is the clearest reference in the bible in my opinion, as prebirth is still life.

Do not deny it, it fits 5 of the mrsnerg acronym.

Mrsnerg describes as it moves, respires*through the mother* is sensitive to ultrasound, needs nutrition and grows.

Is this not a living entity?

Secondly, Jesus said 'love thy neighbour'. Everyone is your neighbour, so killing a innocent child is not loving your neighbour.

Plus this child could have a lot to offer the world, taking him/her away is taking there potential away from the world. This is not loving thy neighbour.

Also, my non religous belief is there are thousands of childless couples just waiting to give a good home to the child. Denying the child this is just wrong and tantamount to childcruelty.

So, these are my beliefs.

quote: 'thou shalt not murder'

Prove it's murder.

quote:Also, my non religous belief is there are thousands of childless couples just waiting to give a good home to the child. Denying the child this is just wrong and tantamount to childcruelty.

There's already loads of homeless kids, starving kids and kids in orphanages around the world needing help.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

[B]

Murder is a 'urder is when a man [interpreted to mean woman as well] of sound memory, and of the age of discretion, unlawfully killeth within any country of the realm any reasonable creature in rerum natura [natural] under the king’s peace, with malice aforethought, either expressed by the party or implied by law, so as the party wounded, or hurt die of the wound or hurt within a year and a day after the same.''

Now women who have abortions are mostly of sound mind, with the intent of killing the child, and are over the age of ten in peace time.

Why it was made lawful is beyond me when it fufils all of these catergories.

Also yes, but lots of the children can not be apodpted because of legal issues.

quote:Why it was made lawful is beyond me when it fufils all of these catergories.

Because it being illegal was doing more harm than good, what with backdoor abortions.

It's beyond me why it should be illegal to kill a clump of cells but perfectly alright to murder cows for food, when they're far more developed and are actually living without relying on being in another being.

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

Because it being illegal was doing more harm than good, what with backdoor abortions.

It's beyond me why it should be illegal to kill a clump of cells but perfectly alright to murder cows for food, when they're far more developed and are actually living without relying on being in another being.

Well, cows are not humans.

We need food to live, therefore is sucessful.

Plus people don't rely on dead feotuses to eat and live.

How you can compare a HUMAN BEING to a cow makes me wonder.

quote:How you can compare a HUMAN BEING to a cow makes me wonder.

Your arrogance sickens me.

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

Your arrogance sickens me.

Same here...And what happened to women's rights?

quote:Originally posted by Death of a Nation:

Same here...And what happened to women's rights?

Women have rights,

but a right to murder?????????????????????

quote:Originally posted by robotripper2:

Women have rights,

but a right to murder?????????????????????

If we except your argument that there's some absurd pecking order of beings in the world, and the human being is above the cow because it is more developed, then I see no reason for why destroying a foetus is any worse than destroying a cow, which is more fully developed than a foetus.



[This message has been edited by Hare_Geist (edited 03-04-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

If we except your argument that there's some absurd pecking order of beings in the world, and the human being is above the cow because it is more developed, then I see no reason for why destroying a foetus is any worse than destroying a cow, which is more fully developed than a foetus.





Its not a pecking order. That was NOT my reason. My reasoning is that all things are somethings predator, even cows are grasses predator.

Therefore us eating cows is natural.

Now, I am guessing you are a vegetarien, so let me ask you a question, would you being forced to eat meat be in your mind a violation of your civil liberties?

It obviously is a violation and I totally agree with you.

So, does that child also have the right to live?

So, the mum killing that child is the same as me forcing you to eat meat.

[This message has been edited by robotripper2 (edited 03-04-2007).]

So you claim its preventing a potential life. Do you wear condoms, do you think its right to use birth control, do you think the morning after pill is right?

When do you consider the fetus to become alive? Something like 80% of fertilized eggs dont even make it to the whomb so that cant be when life occurs. The fetus doesnt have a working brain for a long time after growth starts. There is no scientific thoery of when something becomes alive during pregnancy.

And your statement that there are lots of parents looking to adopt kids is retarded. Just check out any adoption center. There ALWAYS looking for parents, theres thousands of kids waiting for a family, the system is already pushed past its limits.

And just another little bit of information. The population of canada and the US couldnt sustain itself if every abortion went to childhood. The 100 000 in canada and the 1.3 million in teh US. The world is already overpopulated. Aborting unwanted pregnancies are keeping the population from skyrocketing out of control, and even with it the population is still growing.

quote:Originally posted by boozehound420:

So you claim its preventing a potential life. Do you wear condoms, do you think its right to use birth control, do you think the morning after pill is right?

When do you consider the fetus to become alive? Something like 80% of fertilized eggs dont even make it to the whomb so that cant be when life occurs. The fetus doesnt have a working brain for a long time after growth starts. There is no scientific thoery of when something becomes alive during pregnancy.

And your statement that there are lots of parents looking to adopt kids is retarded. Just check out any adoption center. There ALWAYS looking for parents, theres thousands of kids waiting for a family, the system is already pushed past its limits.

And just another little bit of information. The population of canada and the US couldnt sustain itself if every abortion went to childhood. The 100 000 in canada and the 1.3 million in teh US. The world is already overpopulated. Aborting unwanted pregnancies are keeping the population from skyrocketing out of control, and even with it the population is still growing.

I never said that. It IS a life. I stated that in my first post.

And outlawing abortions would SAVE lifes of already born humans, as it would encourage people to use condoms therefore reducing aids and other sti's.

quote:Now, I am guessing you are a vegetarien

I'm not a vegetarian, so that question isn't relevant.

quote:Originally posted by robotripper2:

And outlawing abortions would SAVE lifes of already born humans, as it would encourage people to use condoms therefore reducing aids and other sti's.

You have too much faith in the rationality of human beings, especially when there's something throbbing in their pants.

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

I'm not a vegetarian, so that question isn't relevant.

Oh, then why do you oppose killing meat?

Is that not hypocritical?

quote:Originally posted by robotripper2:

Oh, then why do you oppose killing meat?

Who said I oppose killing meat?

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

Who said I oppose killing meat?

You did.

Unless you got hacked in that xss thing lol

quote:Originally posted by robotripper2:

You did.

Unless you got hacked in that xss thing lol

No I didn't. I said: "It's beyond me why it should be illegal to kill a clump of cells but perfectly alright to murder cows for food, when they're far more developed and are actually living without relying on being in another being."

You interpreted that as me saying it's wrong to kill cows.

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

No I didn't. I said: "It's beyond me why it should be illegal to kill a clump of cells but perfectly alright to murder cows for food, when they're far more developed and are actually living without relying on being in another being."

You interpreted that as me saying it's wrong to kill cows.

Oh, well sorry about that.

But the principle is still the same, a vegetarian should not be forced to eat meat, and a child should not be forced to die.

quote:Originally posted by robotripper2:

Oh, well sorry about that.

No problem. I'm not a vegetarian and I do honestly think it's disgusting how humans think they're above all other animals, but for most of this thread I have been merely playing with you. There was already a thread about this in the politics forum.

if someone would get an abbortion then they should not allow themselves to get pregnant.

quote:Originally posted by robotripper2:

I never said that. It IS a life. I stated that in my first post.

And outlawing abortions would SAVE lifes of already born humans, as it would encourage people to use condoms therefore reducing aids and other sti's.

You didnt even respond to my post. Try again.

quote:Originally posted by robotripper2:

I never said that. It IS a life. I stated that in my first post.

And outlawing abortions would SAVE lifes of already born humans, as it would encourage people to use condoms therefore reducing aids and other sti's.

What gives you the authority to decide when life does and does not start? Under the right circumstances, any cell on the human body could be developed into another human being. Every time you scratch yourself, you're killing thousands of potential lives.

If you oppose abortion, then that's fine. But to want to outlaw it is foolish. Forcing your interpretation of your god's laws on other people who do not follow your god's laws is pretty silly.

You don't think abortion is right? Don't let you or your wife get one. It's that simple. But don't for a second think you can make a moral choice for a woman and her own personal beliefs--it is not your place to tell someone else how to make a certain moral choice.

Since you oppose abortion, then that must also mean you oppose stem cell research. But you seem so dead set on saving lives. Well, stem cell research has the enormous potential to save millions upon millions of lives, but since it involves killing a 3 day old fetus (a mass of 150 cells), then you must oppose it, which is quite sad.

quote:Originally posted by bung:

What gives you the authority to decide when life does and does not start? Under the right circumstances, any cell on the human body could be developed into another human being. Every time you scratch yourself, you're killing thousands of potential lives.

If you oppose abortion, then that's fine. But to want to outlaw it is foolish. Forcing your interpretation of your god's laws on other people who do not follow your god's laws is pretty silly.

You don't think abortion is right? Don't let you or your wife get one. It's that simple. But don't for a second think you can make a moral choice for a woman and her own personal beliefs--it is not your place to tell someone else how to make a certain moral choice.

Since you oppose abortion, then that must also mean you oppose stem cell research. But you seem so dead set on saving lives. Well, stem cell research has the enormous potential to save millions upon millions of lives, but since it involves killing a 3 day old fetus (a mass of 150 cells), then you must oppose it, which is quite sad.

Ok, my opinion is this.

I agree with you. But did you know that every umbilical cord that is discarded contains stem cells.

I mean think about this. Your girlfriend/wife has a baby, it is a loving home and the umbilical cord is just chucked away. Why kill a feotus when you can take stem cells from a alive baby without hurting anyone???

quote:Originally posted by robotripper2:

Ok, my opinion is this.

I agree with you. But did you know that every umbilical cord that is discarded contains stem cells.

I mean think about this. Your girlfriend/wife has a baby, it is a loving home and the umbilical cord is just chucked away. Why kill a feotus when you can take stem cells from a alive baby without hurting anyone???

I don't know the answer to that one. I would assume that there is a logical explanation for it, but I don't know what it is. But now that you mention it, I do plan to look into it.

Edit: I found this: "However, they have not yet demonstrated that these [umbilical cord] cells do indeed have the potential to become any type of cell - the hallmark of a true stem cell, which is called pluripotency."

It comes from this article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4157362.stm

Yes, it is about a year old, so I don't know what advancements have been made in that year.

[This message has been edited by bung (edited 03-04-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by bung:

I don't know the answer to that one. I would assume that there is a logical explanation for it, but I don't know what it is. But now that you mention it, I do plan to look into it.

Edit: I found this: "However, they have not yet demonstrated that these [umbilical cord] cells do indeed have the potential to become any type of cell - the hallmark of a true stem cell, which is called pluripotency."

It comes from this article: http://ne ws.bbc.co. uk/2/hi/he alth/4157362.stm (http: //news.bbc .co.uk/2/h i/health/4 157362.stm )

Yes, it is about a year old, so I don't know what advancements have been made in that year.



We got told it is from our re teacher.

quote:Originally posted by robotripper2:

We got told it is from our re teacher.

re teacher? Just curious, but what is that?

Don't like abortions? Then don't have one! It's as simple as that.

quote:Originally posted by bung:

re teacher? Just curious, but what is that?

Religious Education.

OP, I don't think your argument about the life of a cow vs the life of a foetus really stands up; in your first post you use the 7 characteristics of living things to define the foetus as alive, and I'm pretty sure a cow fits those.

So by your own logic, it's wrong to kill the cow.

Jx

A biased opinion coming from a religious source? Absurd!

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

Because it being illegal was doing more harm than good, what with backdoor abortions.

It's beyond me why it should be illegal to kill a clump of cells but perfectly alright to murder cows for food, when they're far more developed and are actually living without relying on being in another being.

Cows aren't sentient, babies become sentient.

quote:Originally posted by King_Cotton:

Cows aren't sentient, babies become sentient.

How do you know the cow isn't going to become sentient or that the baby is? IT could come out a retard baby.

I'm speaking as an American here. In this country we still do have a few rights left and if a woman wants to choose to get rid of her fetus she should have every right to do so. Who the fuck are you to tell someone what they can/can't do? It's their body and their choice not yours. Oh sorry I forgot you're a Christian so your opinion is automatically right because thats what "god" says is right. If you religious assholes would just shut the fuck up and let science progress like it should, we might have been able to regrow full limbs by now.

quote:Originally posted by robotripper2:



And outlawing abortions would SAVE lifes of already born humans, as it would encourage people to use condoms therefore reducing aids and other sti's.

Cute idea, but doesn't work in practice. When you have the time, look up STI/HIV rates and abortion laws. You will find that there is NO correlation. (Far too many other factors, for one.)

Besides, when people are feeling a little randy, they often don't put much thought towards the condom.

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

How do you know the cow isn't going to become sentient or that the baby is? IT could come out a retard baby.

Then the baby would be fair game for the slaughterhouse as far as I'm concerned.



Seriously, I don't know.

Here's why I support abortions:

1. I like the taste.

2. Kids are little bastards, and we have to much running about as it is.

k, first my religious reasons. In the 10 commandments, it states that 'thou shalt not murder'.

Unrelated question but isen't it 'thou shalt not kill'? I know murder and kill can be used interchangably in the modern world, but murder was not a common word back when the book in the bible that contains the ten commandments was written, so im guessing that the original was kill not murder. Yah just pointing that out

Yay abortions

Boo abortions

^ur choice i have no opinion because im a man and i have no right over a womans body.

quote:Originally posted by gmail:

I'm speaking as an American here. In this country we still do have a few rights left and if a woman wants to choose to get rid of her fetus she should have every right to do so. Who the fuck are you to tell someone what they can/can't do? It's their body and their choice not yours. Oh sorry I forgot you're a Christian so your opinion is automatically right because thats what "god" says is right. If you religious assholes would just shut the fuck up and let science progress like it should, we might have been able to regrow full limbs by now.



Exactly. Freedom. There is no more need for discussion beyond that one word.

And the part about "the word of 'god' " being always right, yeah, christians, catholics, protestants, jews, you all need to stop imposing your moral values upon others, ESPECIALLY if they were created or altered by a fucking book claiming divinity. No. Just no.

Yay abortions, and yay freedom.

Abortion is bad. If you think it's o.k i'm amazed your working a computer. FUCK all of you who support it.

quote:Originally posted by george99887:

Abortion is bad. If you think it's o.k i'm amazed your working a computer. FUCK all of you who support it.

How about I rape your mother? Would you still like to have that brother?

Its not murder or killing if its not alive. Its the same fucking concept as killing cells

You can't argue that abortion is wrong because the fetus might become sentient. Following that logic throwing away a computer is wrong because someone could develop a functioning AI which would make the computer sentient.

quote:Originally posted by MR.Kitty55:

How about I rape your mother? Would you still like to have that brother?

Its not murder or killing if its not alive. Its the same fucking concept as killing cells



I think someone just got owned.

Yet, it imposes the question: Did your mother want that child?

Or would she testify of not being a pervert and reside to vengeance of a certain omnipotent being through the art of martial law?

Thy who dare impose the law is either a fool or a coward.



[This message has been edited by Naminator01 (edited 03-06-2007).]

In the early stages its practically cancer. A fetus is a fucking parasite. So do you thing its wrong to try to cure cancer?

I didnt read the replies. I'm drunk. Deal with it, or disregard this at your own discretion.

I dont remember the exact passage in the bible, but theres a part that speaks of the penalty imposed when a man strikes a woman and causes her to lose her child. It says that man will be subject to...whatever the father of that baby decides is fair, but no specific penalties for murder or any such thing. So 'thou shalt not kill' is not the clearest representation of any means.

Secondly, i know someone else said this...but there are absolutely NO shortage of orphans or homeless kids in the world for prospective parents to adopt. There may be a shortage of brand spanking new 2 week old caucasian children out there, but...you know what, if you're going to adopt...and thats all you want to adopt, maybe those arent the best parents to raise a child anyways. I am white by the way.

we just don't care... that's the problem. learn to not care retards. or eventually you'll remedial asses will be shot!!

It's a secular country and the 10 commandments don't include forcing others to follow them like a fascist. You think it's against the bible? Cool. Don't get an abortion.

I think it's against my religion to go to church. Cool huh? Guess what I don't do? I don't go to fucking church. I'll tell you what else I don't do. I don't try to ban motherfuckers from going to fucking church!

You know why? Because I'm a tolerant motherfucker right up to the point that assholes try to make me choose between my freedom, and shooting cops. That's when I start getting fucking irritable with fuckers.

You wonder why your bros got thrown off cliffs and fed to lions? Because assholes like you can't mind your own damn business. You're like yappy little fucking dogs biting at the ears of pitbull. Then you wonder why people who don't suffer from your mental illness lash out at you.

You think that's uncalled for? You were just "expressing your opinion." It's called for because the only reason you would feel it necessary to share is if you trying to rile up the choir for your cause. Don't let them forget they're on your side lest they focus on something more important.

Guess what? Not all opinions are created equal. None of you have responded to me. Which is it? Is abortion murder? Surely you don't want to murder the children of rapists and incestous couples? That's not a position that will win you public support! Then again, neither will forcing rape victims and mothers with their daddy's kid to take the baby to term. You can't have it both ways. So which are you?

Don't think you'll ever get away from this question by just ignoring it. I fully intend to push this question full force. I'm putting it on pro-choice message boards for parroting. I'm going to make sure you assholes are never able to pull a fast one again. You are caught with your hands in the cookie jar, and you can't win this one.

Abortion is murder huh? Let's see how long you maintain that position when you have to look in to rape victim's eyes and tell them that they have to carry their attacker's baby for 9 months.

What's your answer? Seriously, you believe what you're saying don't you? So you should be able to tell me one way or another. Do you retract you position that abortion is murder? Or do you think being the child of a rapist is an acceptable reason to murder a child? Or do you think that rape victims should have to carry the child to term? There is NO FOURTH CHOICE. That is every possible choice in front of you.

Have the last word on the first half of my post. I'll give it to you. But answer my question, or you admit that abortion is rightfully legal.

[This message has been edited by OdayJuarez (edited 03-06-2007).]

Hare_Geist, you're a dumbass. Avoiding all religious bullshit just answer this for me: what about a 13 year old girl that accidently got impregnated? You're saying it would be morally all right for her to 1. Suffer the initial damages and consequences of giving birth at an early age 2. Having to drop out of school 3. Deal with all the emotional frustrations of being a teen mother, not to mention being rejected from society, what about the child itself? You think *he/she* will be any better? I should know, my girlfriend is 16... luckily I keep my sanity.

SO let's examine your "morally pure" perfect religious world:

1. More teen mothers.

2. More poverty.

3. More crime.

4. More welfare.

5. Unprofessional abortion operations leading to more teen deaths.

Religion and infanticide have a lot in common if you ask me.

I urge you to rethink your quasi-philosophies before it starts to affect your personal life, or someone you know.

Why did the fetus cross the road?

Because they moved the dumpster.

What's red and crawls up your leg?

A homesick abortion.

What's funny about abortions?

The taste.

quote:Originally posted by robotripper2:

Ok, first my religious reasons. In the 10 commandments, it states that 'thou shalt not murder'. This is the clearest reference in the bible in my opinion, as prebirth is still life.

Do not deny it, it fits 5 of the mrsnerg acronym.

Mrsnerg describes as it moves, respires*through the mother* is sensitive to ultrasound, needs nutrition and grows.

Is this not a living entity?

Secondly, Jesus said 'love thy neighbour'. Everyone is your neighbour, so killing a innocent child is not loving your neighbour.

Plus this child could have a lot to offer the world, taking him/her away is taking there potential away from the world. This is not loving thy neighbour.

Also, my non religous belief is there are thousands of childless couples just waiting to give a good home to the child. Denying the child this is just wrong and tantamount to childcruelty.

So, these are my beliefs.

First off, your religious arguments are the only ones that hold any water.

Secondly, the six characteristics of life are: cells, organization, energy use, homeostasis, growth, and reproduction. No harm there, though. :P

My point is, no matter what you do, enforcing opinions on the lives of others does not create a stable system. It reeks of totalitarianism, and no one likes totalitarianism. Well, excluding S&M...

We'll all get along much better, if we agree to not use the government to enforce our will. That means absolute freedom of choice, for all people living in our state.

What a great concept...

*snorts at naive liberals and ignorant neo-conservatives simultaneously*

[This message has been edited by RedWasp (edited 03-12-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by Dr.Speed17:

Hare_Geist, you're a dumbass. Avoiding all religious bullshit just answer this for me: what about a 13 year old girl that accidently got impregnated? You're saying it would be morally all right for her to 1. Suffer the initial damages and consequences of giving birth at an early age 2. Having to drop out of school 3. Deal with all the emotional frustrations of being a teen mother, not to mention being rejected from society, what about the child itself? You think *he/she* will be any better? I should know, my girlfriend is 16... luckily I keep my sanity.

SO let's examine your "morally pure" perfect religious world:

1. More teen mothers.

2. More poverty.

3. More crime.

4. More welfare.

5. Unprofessional abortion operations leading to more teen deaths.

Religion and infanticide have a lot in common if you ask me.

I urge you to rethink your quasi-philosophies before it starts to affect your personal life, or someone you know.

You're too fucking dumb to realize I was merely having a bit of fun? GTFO my internet.

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

You're too fucking dumb to realize I was merely having a bit of fun? GTFO my internet.

Hey Hare, quick question...how much codeine can I take before my liver explodes?

quote:Originally posted by Obbe:

Hey Hare, quick question...how much codeine can I take before my liver explodes?



Wow, that insult is really, really, really old. And lame.

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

You're too fucking dumb to realize I was merely having a bit of fun? GTFO my internet.

My bad, I meant to quote robottripper, not you. Sorry about that.

Ignoring any superstitious beliefs (religion etc..) and concluding that America is a secular country.

I believe that the point a human is declared dead, is when it's heart can't beat by its own accord.

A developing fetus, pre-heart even, is as quoted a parasite, post-heart development i believe that it's too late to have an abortion? because its past the second trimester i think. But, even if a beating heart WAS developed, there would be no way it could beat independantly.

I also agree that banning abortions is a bad idea due to social issues (the ones listed above). Remeber that when people also start regulating it (only in rape cases, well.. the child is too young to realize what it was doing, etc... who decides where to place parameters for something like that?)

The fact remains that no matter what the OP says. Current law states that a human is not "alive" until it has taken it's first breath outside the womb.

So there for, the very basis of his argument is flawed.

quote:Originally posted by Source:

The fact remains that no matter what the OP says. Current law states that a human is not "alive" until it has taken it's first breath outside the womb.

So there for, the very basis of his argument is flawed.

I thought science or law stated that when a person doesn't have an assissted heartbeat, which i guess means once its out of the womb?-

quote:Originally posted by Blades of Hate:

I thought science or law stated that when a person doesn't have an assissted heartbeat, which i guess means once its out of the womb?-

Well after some light googling, the answer seems to be rather vague.

quote:Originally posted by robotripper2:

Plus people don't rely on dead feotuses to eat and live.



...perhaps this is the problem which is destroying our society.

ok then be anti abortion, not anti choice. I may not believe that you should have the right to post your bullshit on a website where thousands of people can read it, or that you should even be alive, yet you still have the choice now dont you?

quote:Originally posted by CsH4life617:

ok then be anti abortion, not anti choice. I may not believe that you should have the right to post your bullshit on a website where thousands of people can read it, or that you should even be alive, yet you still have the choice now dont you?

OK, then be anti-murder, not anti-choice. I may not believe that you should have the right to strangle me to death in front of thousands of people, yet you still should have the choice, shouldn't you?

This whole argument is null and void.

Religion has no right to interfere in law or state affairs.

Saying abortion is wrong because its a clump of cells that potentially become anything is pathetic.

Look at the mess the world is in right now, all that shit you do in your day to day life isnt exactly loving thy neighbor in 3rd world piss poor countries is it now? and your first priority is to save a mass of cells because some BOOK tells you to.

Moron.

I bet none of you morons who are against abortion have even thought about the parents of the fetus being aborted.

Just because the thing was made, does not mean it was meant to be a person. This could really fuck over the parents if its UNPLANNED pregnancy. Making a fucked up kid, and don't give me this foster care other childless couplesbullshit . Try telling a kid who's not yours but you had it for 13 years that you don't know who his real parents are.