Fuck Im getten pissed of at the law. You not suppose to smoke and grow weed, Cann't own an attomatic rifle or pistol but you see the motherfucking cops walking around with there glocks, you can only drive at 50km in towns in NSW, you can not buy fire works, you need a gun lincens just to by a box of 22 bullets, not to mention the fucking 10% GST on basicly every thing, the fucking goverment sendind the poor refugees back to war torn contrys to get killed or something, you have to be 18 to det into a club or buy a packet of smokes. look I know that you amiricans probbly have it worse than us but our laws need to get changed soon or Im going to go insain.

America has worse laws, but Australia has worse bugs.

Whats wrong with only allowing people who are 18 and older to smoke? The only people pissed are little 13 year olds who think they are hard when they sneak into a rated R movie.

Maybe because alot of 16 and 17 year olds are already addicted. They want to ban it all together but can't, so they are banning the kids so they won't get addicted in the first place. Most kids won't grow their own. Meaning, in 20 years. Smoking will be uncommon enough to ban it all together. The problem is this fucks over the kids already addicted. In the end it's doing them a favor. Until then the bitching will never stop.

quote:

---

America has worse laws, but Australia has worse bugs.

---

In some ways I would agree and in others I would disagree.

k devil pointed out that the gun laws in australia are ass backwards. And that I know for a fact.

Australia is home of the funnel web spider which to my knowledge is the most deadly. Death can occur within an hour without medical attention.

Then again take Switzerland for example, such as..

It is unlawful to make any negative remark to a homosexual. Even if you are a strict catholic and simply state "homosexuals will burn in hell" you could be brought up on charges.

Also they removed urinals in public bathrooms due to the fact that "it is degrading to women"

These are laws they do enforce on a daily basis.

They seam very liberal yet the majority of the households have firearms. A country where a citizen can easily even obtain a fully automatic assult riffle.

Go figure.

Instead of Switzerland, I think you meant Sweden.

Nox

quote:

---

Originally posted by k devil:
you have to be 18 to det into a club or buy a packet of smokes.

---

I'd rather not go to a club where kids could get in. It's bad enough when they let 18 year olds in.

As for smoking, who cares? You shouldn't be doing it anyways. It's a waste of money and doesn't really do anything for you.

Well quit complaining and fuck off out of the country you twat. We live in the best country in the world and you should be grateful.

Obviously you have never travelled anywhere, and no nothing of the world, otherwise you'd be thanking your lucky fucking stars.

Yes, our gun laws are prehistoric, but then again, I'm glad that they've made it so difficult to get a licence when I encounter morons such as you.

Oh and poop - death from Funnel Webs is a very rare occurrence - far more people die from car accidents - there was one under my bed the other day. It was having babies - I caught it in a container and put it outside. You learn how to deal with these things.
Also - you forgot to mention that Australia has
of the 8 world's 10 deadliest snakes.

Come to New Zealand then mate. Ya aussies know we got no snakes.

-Actually Im not a native Kiwi but who cares.

-laterz

you stupid ass. most of those laws you mentioned are the best laws we bloody have.

I agree with the post above. I really like that fact that clubs dont let little turds like you through the door. I mean, i really dont want a 15-year-old or whatever with that attitude in the same club as me, let alone the same country.

Its sad that america is still the freest nation on earth after all the crap thats been inflicted on our rights. as it is I can buy high caliber rifle ammunition with proof of age alone.

Yeah, and that's not good.

oh I dissagre criminals find ways to get around the huge government beurocracies that ban and restrict guns with detriment to honest law abiding citizens. youre rate of crime has skyrocketed since the instuitution of your ill fated laws.

I don't know if this is true or not, but I heard in Switzerland when a man turns 18 the government issues him a gun?

Whether it's true or not, there is a gun in almost every household, yet that country has one of the lowest death rates to do firearms per year. That says something.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Smithee:
oh I dissagre criminals find ways to get around the huge government beurocracies that ban and restrict guns with detriment to honest law abiding citizens. youre rate of crime has skyrocketed since the instuitution of your ill fated laws.

---

Yes, the first part of this is quite correct. I recently gave a seminar on illegal firearms in this country, so am obviously pretty up on it. It's a misconception that that our crime rates have drastically increased since the introduction of such strict registration policies and the NSW Firearms Tracking Unit.

A summary from the Australian Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research shows;

? Murders and robberies involving firearms have declined over the last five years.
? 'Shoot with intent' incidents have risen over the last five years.
? About half of all 'shoot with intent' offences involving handguns and other firearms occur in a public place.
? The increase in firearm offences has been most pronounced in areas of Sydney where drug trafficking is a problem.
? Young males aged 18-19 are much more prone to involvement in shooting incidents than older males.

I have alot more information on this that points basically to an increase in some areas, and a decrease in others, but an overall decrease.

That's not really the point though. The laws aren't fair to sporting shooters etc.
The fines and prison terms for something like just having gun parts in your garage are ludicrous.
We don?t need more draconian laws such as the call to ban handguns entirely by the Coalition For Gun Control. This happened in the UK after Dunblane, - and since, Crime involving handguns has rocketed. We need more resources put into preventing illegal importation, sale, and possession.

to all the people who don't like my attitude you can all get FUCKED. what the fuck is wrong with you people. If we teenagers whanta go and by smokes and alcohol we should, Fuck in germany you can go and by alcohol at 16. And why the fuck shold you have to have a lincnes to own a bolt action 22. What the fuck is wrong with going to a club if I'm only 16 (by the way I still pass as 18 but thats not the point).

Is this the first time you've even bothered to check your own thread?

Loser.

Once you're 21(or whatever the legal age is there) and can go to clubs, you'll appreciate the fact that you are amongst adult(in theory). Clubs and bars would be annoying as hell if 16 year olds were allowed. They already get annoying if the wrong people show up.

Alcohol and tobacco aren't really necessities, so the laws aren't likely to change anytime soon.

Alcohol and particularly tobacco, are actually killers, but I agree, KDevil, you should be allowed to smoke like a friggin chimney......

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tooth Fairy:
Is this the first time you've even bothered to check your own thread?

Loser.

---

I have actuly checked it sevral times and not botherd to write somehting down fuckwit

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tooth Fairy:

It's a misconception that that our crime rates have drastically increased since the introduction of such strict registration policies and the NSW Firearms Tracking Unit.

---

I don't think that the rise in mugging and burglary can be seen as anything but meteoric.

booze and smokes are not that hard to aquire, i buy all the time and only 17.
as for Australia being a shithole, i wouldnt go that far, but i will say that life is alot tougher for the middle class, other than that Australia is a laid back place to live.

im 16 male from UK. i go to the night clubs around town every weekend & get in no probs!!!!

now my New Zealander story

i was in Ikon (fav club) on saturday nite and went to the toliet were i saw 1 of my older brother m8s we started chatin and he asked me how old i was! wen i told him i was 16 there was a guy from New Zealand listening who got really pissed off! he was about 40 and he was askin me wot i was doin there!!!
he said hes a copper in NW and i his words were

"i wish i could arrest ur ass!!!"

lol

to all the ppl who r complaining about 16 yr olds!!! wernt you teenagers once???

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Smithee:
I don't think that the rise in mugging and burglary can be seen as anything but meteoric.

---

Oh ok, so are you not talking about crimes involving guns, and if not, what's your point?
If you are reffering to crimes involving guns, please quote your statistical sources.

quote:

---

Originally posted by XIPHER:
booze and smokes are not that hard to aquire, i buy all the time and only 17.
as for Australia being a shithole, i wouldnt go that far, but i will say that life is alot tougher for the middle class, other than that Australia is a laid back place to live.

---

What the........???? In what way is life alot tougher for the middle class, and in comparison to what????????????

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sy:

to all the ppl who r complaining about 16 yr olds!!! wernt you teenagers once???

---

Yeah sure. And I was a wild one. I'm not complaining about your arse, I'm complaining about wankers who don't know when they've got it good...........

quote:

---

Originally posted by k devil:
I have actuly checked it sevral times and not botherd to write somehting down fuckwit

---

Oh well, that's intelligent. Fuckknuckle.

quote:

---

Originally posted by k devil:
Fuck Im getten pissed of at the law. You not suppose to smoke and grow weed, Cann't own an attomatic rifle or pistol but you see the motherfucking cops walking around with there glocks, you can only drive at 50km in towns in NSW, you can not buy fire works, you need a gun lincens just to by a box of 22 bullets, not to mention the fucking 10% GST on basicly every thing, the fucking goverment sendind the poor refugees back to war torn contrys to get killed or something, you have to be 18 to det into a club or buy a packet of smokes. look I know that you amiricans probbly have it worse than us but our laws need to get changed soon or Im going to go insain.

---

yeah ..and they also make you go to school so you can learn to spell properly...oh you broke that one hey...

to all those bitching about australian laws or even american ones things could be worse so if you dont like them you have the right to choose your own place of residance ie;fuck of to some shithole muslim country or some crackerjack african backwards disease ridden war torn dictatorship ....moron..

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tooth Fairy:

Oh ok, so are you not talking about crimes involving guns, and if not, what's your point?
If you are reffering to crimes involving guns, please quote your statistical sources.

---

Im talking about crimes that an armed citizenry tend to discourage. A life of crime seems far more appeling when the possibility of starring down the barrel of a gun diminishes.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tooth Fairy:
Well quit complaining and fuck off out of the country you twat. We live in the best country in the world and you should be grateful.

Obviously you have never travelled anywhere, and no nothing of the world, otherwise you'd be thanking your lucky fucking stars.

Yes, our gun laws are prehistoric, but then again, I'm glad that they've made it so difficult to get a licence when I encounter morons such as you.

---

i agree with everthing you said apart from our gun laws being prehistoric the majority of those laws came in after that shooting in tasmania.and i for one am glad that i can walk down the street without getting shot out by some fucknuckle coward trying to get his own back at the world just because he lost his job or because he gets picked on at school...some laws are there to protect us even though it might not seem like it....

quote:

---

Originally posted by stgeorge6602:
i agree with everthing you said apart from our gun laws being prehistoric the majority of those laws came in after that shooting in tasmania.and i for one am glad that i can walk down the street without getting shot out by some fucknuckle coward trying to get his own back at the world just because he lost his job or because he gets picked on at school...some laws are there to protect us even though it might not seem like it....

---

You are talking about the Port Arthur Massacre, and yes, that was the perogative for our gun laws becoming so stringent, and rightly so, as you point out. However, there are extremes, and extremes........ Did you know, that if you even want to join an air-rifle club you have to have a licence? Also, the whole idea of someone being sentenced to 20 years prison, and/or $250000 just for possessing gun parts - (like say you used to own guns, and handed them back in the buy-back, but forgot a bit) - like a barrel in your garage, is a little extreme. Also, what about the farmers????

[This message has been edited by Tooth Fairy (edited 09-24-2002).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Smithee:
Im talking about crimes that an armed citizenry tend to discourage. A life of crime seems far more appeling when the possibility of starring down the barrel of a gun diminishes.

---

Oh, ok, so you're quoting no known statistics, but relying on your own surmise? Have you ever lived in Oz? Do you have any figures? WHERE are you getting your information? Show us the evidence!

Also, what you said implies that we Had an armed citizenry B4 the laws changed. We didn't! No-one here carries a gun for self protection - they weren't allowed to do that Before the gun laws changed! And no-one who did have a gun licence was allowed to carry a gun around on the street. People just didn't have guns for self protection. This is not America, and you can't base your opinion of Australian gun laws on your experience in the US.
You may be a mod, but if you don't know what you're talking about, you should just shut the fuck up........


[This message has been edited by Tooth Fairy (edited 09-24-2002).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Smithee:
Its sad that america is still the freest nation on earth after all the crap thats been inflicted on our rights. as it is I can buy high caliber rifle ammunition with proof of age alone.

---

hmm...clue to the high amount of murders maybe?

stop whineing...jeez....u should see my country...i live in kuwait...

If your not a muslim the people fuck u up.
If you say nethin bad bout "god" ur screwed
90% of all people are complete idiots..example....i was buying a movie and up comes this guy and tells me that i shouldnt buy it since its fobidden in islam.

The laws....dont lemme get in to the laws.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tooth Fairy:
Oh, ok, so you're quoting no known statistics, but relying on your own surmise? Have you ever lived in Oz? Do you have any figures? WHERE are you getting your information? Show us the evidence!

Also, what you said implies that we Had an armed citizenry B4 the laws changed. We didn't! No-one here carries a gun for self protection - they weren't allowed to do that Before the gun laws changed! And no-one who did have a gun licence was allowed to carry a gun around on the street. People just didn't have guns for self protection. This is not America, and you can't base your opinion of Australian gun laws on your experience in the US.
You may be a mod, but if you don't know what you're talking about, you should just shut the fuck up........


[This message has been edited by Tooth Fairy (edited 09-24-2002).]

---

You know when you were civil you were almost fun to debate, now that you have shown your self to be a knee jerk idiot I am greatly sadened. I know that the rates of armed robery burglary and mugging increased over 40% since the institution of your foolish laws. I held this back because I would have liked to provide you with exact statistics. Now run and play child this is an issue for adults.

okay toothfairy you might need a license to join an air rifle club but it shouldnt be to much of an inconvenience for you if you really want to join. you also need one to go fishing?and even to get married,to own a dog,the list goes on and on ..there are those laws that are there to protect and those which are in place just to raise revenue....

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Smithee:
You know when you were civil you were almost fun to debate, now that you have shown your self to be a knee jerk idiot I am greatly sadened. I know that the rates of armed robery burglary and mugging increased over 40% since the institution of your foolish laws. I held this back because I would have liked to provide you with exact statistics. Now run and play child this is an issue for adults.

---

Again, I ask for your evidence. Your words are hollow of facts.
Your insults bounce away as a reflection of your ignorance.
I am surprised at the great improvement to your grammar, almost as though someone else wrote your post.

quote:

---

Originally posted by stgeorge6602:
okay toothfairy you might need a license to join an air rifle club but it shouldnt be to much of an inconvenience for you if you really want to join. you also need one to go fishing?and even to get married,to own a dog,the list goes on and on ..there are those laws that are there to protect and those which are in place just to raise revenue....

---

I don't entirely disagree with you, and I think the big on that's missing off your list, is a licence to have kids. Any idiot's allowed to do that.
I just think throwing people who possess an air-rifle or small gun parts etc, in with guys who have a pistol intent on robbery, in the criminal justice system, is way over the top.
The buy-back and laws are a recent change - they should encompass leniency in some areas.


[This message has been edited by Tooth Fairy (edited 09-26-2002).]

yeah well i was going to mention the kids one but then changed my mind because i thought i had got the message across(did i)i know what you mean,but i used the gun license issue as a generalisation on the whole laws suck thing..at the moment in victoria they have brought in another law to do with the possession of knives and the penalties that you will face if found with one on you..a bad law or a good one??

quote:

---

origionally posted by Tooth Fairy.
[quote]
Originally posted by XIPHER:
booze and smokes are not that hard to aquire, i buy all the time and im only 17.
as for Australia being a shithole, i wouldnt go that far, but i will say that life is alot tougher for the middle class, other than that Australia is a laid back place to live.

---

What the........???? In what way is life alot tougher for the middle class, and in comparison to what????????????
[/quote]

sorry, that was supposed to say that life is tougher for the middle class compared to
the upper class and the people bludging on welfare. particularly if you own a small business. but i cant really complain.

[This message has been edited by XIPHER (edited 09-27-2002).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tooth Fairy:

Again, I ask for your evidence. Your words are hollow of facts.
Your insults bounce away as a reflection of your ignorance.
I am surprised at the great improvement to your grammar, almost as though someone else wrote your post.

---

My insults are the results of yours, which I can only see as a reflection of your impotent rage against those that would defend themselves.

As for this supposed grammerical improvement, I would attribute it more to your poor grasp of the intricacies of the english language than any supposed, and sudden, literary growth on my part. Then again I suppose this may be hard for a person whose coarse dialect is the product of its feloneous antecedants to comprehend.

links: http://www.nrawinningteam.com/auresult.html http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/s521140.htm http://www.breakthechain.org/exclusives/australiaguns.html http://www.ssaa.org.au/ilasep98.html

I could find more If you like, This was 3 minutes on google, pomie.

[This message has been edited by Alan Smithee (edited 09-28-2002).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Smithee:
My insults are the results of yours, which I can only see as a reflection of your impotent rage against those that would defend themselves.

As for this supposed grammerical improvement, I would attribute it more to your poor grasp of the intricacies of the english language than any supposed, and sudden, literary growth on my part. Then again I suppose this may be hard for a person whose coarse dialect is the product of its feloneous antecedants to comprehend.

links: http://www.nrawinningteam.com/auresult.html http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/s521140.htm http://www.breakthechain.org/exclusives/australiaguns.html http://www.ssaa.org.au/ilasep98.html

I could find more If you like, This was 3 minutes on google, pomie.

[This message has been edited by Alan Smithee (edited 09-28-2002).]

---

1. You're very sensitive aren't you?
I didn't really insult you, just told you shut the fuck up if you didn't know what you were talking about, which quite clearly you didn't.

2. Hehehe, if only you knew.
Take a look at some of your earlier posts.

3. Exactly my point. Any idiot can punch in search terms to Google. You obviously hadn't done so, up until now. Did you actually bother to read any of those? BTW - you are missing the most important one. The one with actual statistical figures on it.

4. What's a pomie?


The following are the notes that formed the basis of a seminar I gave on illegal firearms, earlier this year.

FIREARMS SEMINAR


 The debate surrounding illegal firearms has increased recently. Particularly after three shootings over the same weekend in April, leaving two people dead and six injured.

* The gun laws were dramatically altered in 1996 in the aftermath of the Port Arthur Massacre, to include the registration of all personal firearms. A summary from the Australian Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research shows;

� Murders and robberies involving firearms have declined over the last five years.
� 'Shoot with intent' incidents have risen over the last five years.
� About half of all 'shoot with intent' offences involving handguns and other firearms occur in a public place.
� The increase in firearm offences has been most pronounced in areas of Sydney where drug trafficking is a problem.
� Young males aged 18-19 are much more prone to involvement in shooting incidents than older males.
The bureau compares the situation here to that of the US, and summarises it by saying - The increase in homicides involving youths and handguns (in the US) is thought to have been caused primarily by the development of the 'crack' market, the recruitment of young people to sell drugs on the street, increased arming of drug sellers, the carrying of guns for protection and status, and irresponsible and casual use by young people (Blumstein & Rosenfeld 1998).
There has been a specific study on the Canterbury-Bankstown and Fairfield-Liverpool Subdivisions, which has shown a much larger increase in gun related crimes in the last five years, than the rest of NSW. It is evident that a large proportion of handgun shootings originate from these two Subdivisions. In fact shootings in these areas account for 55 per cent of all handgun shootings which occurred across NSW during the year 2000. While there is no direct evidence that the increase in shootings is drug-related, these are areas known to have significant drug trafficking problems.
So where are the guns coming from?
John Tingle (MP Shooter�s Party), says 80% of handguns are smuggled in from a chinese factory (I think he�s referring to Norinco who make imitations of glock, colt and S&W) And has said there was anecdotal evidence of an explosion in the black-market gun trade, with up to 10,000 illegal guns being shipped annually, mainly aboard light aircraft landing at remote airstrips in northern Australia, and by power boats. �They are not mostly coming in in containers, although even if they were, they probably wouldn't be found, because Customs don�t have the resources. I believe they're coming by air and sea into northern Australia, and God knows where else on our wide-open coastline!�

 Bob Carr supports this theory, and suggests the need for better border control, but Last week The Minister for Justice and Customs, Chris Ellison, said: "there is a large number of handguns around that were previously legally imported, "criminals wanting to obtain illegal handguns do not need to import them." He denied there was evidence that many guns were coming into Australia undetected, saying all air and sea cargo coming into the country was screened, and inspection rates had increased.

I spoke to Pamela Reed, the development officer for the SSAA, and she agreed that it�s likely parts are being smuggled in and reassembled later. Despite customs using xray machines, how frequently would they recognise gun parts, from motorbike parts � if they have been labled as such? Pamela said the SSAA don�t support the registration of all individual firearms, as they believe it�s not working in the effort to stop illegal use � and is not cost effective � ie it�s costing individual members personally, and probably the tax payers as well. She feels the money would be better spent on increasing customs effectiveness, by training officers in recognition, and also made the suggestion that a computer program could be designed to pick up the patterns of firearm parts.

Another possible source is the theft from security companies, such as Armaguard - who wouldn�t talk to me, and theft from other places.
WestAustralian
9/3/2002
Police have recovered a pistol, ammunition and police identification
stolen from an unmarked police car on Monday, but are still looking for
a grey Toshiba laptop computer that was taken at the same time.
Thieves smashed the window of the unmarked police four-wheel drive
parked outside North City Holden in Osborne Park and stole the items
including the pistol which would have been worth $1,000 on the black
market.
HeraldSun
11mar02
POLICE have recovered a Glock pistol and police radio stolen from
Melbourne Airport on the eve of CHOGM.
Stolen Sun 5/5/02 between 9am and 4pm
Qld Incident No 02-145064 with Mackay CIB
Drulov 15" sleeved barrel,SingleShot, 22RF Pistol
# 32735 with Tasco World Class 30mm 3x EER Scope on Weaver Mts
Colt Woodsman Target Mod 10Shot 22RF # 197151-S
Ruger Single Six (NR9) 9"barrel 6shot 22/22mag
# 263-03152 Dan Wesson S/Steel,715VH, 8 3/8" barrel, 6shot, 357Mag
# 357S001760


Once on the streets of Sydney and other Australian cities, the price jumped tenfold - anywhere between $1000 and $5,000 each - because they could not be traced if abandoned or recovered by police during a crime.
Research from the bureau of crime statistics onsuggest that worthwhile policy responses to gun crime can be classified into three categories, depending upon their objective. These are:
1. those designed to affect the supply and overall availability of guns
2. those designed to influence who has these weapons
3. those designed to affect how guns are used by people who have them.
Traditional approaches to the problem of firearm crime have focused on the last of these three objectives rather than the first two. The criminal law contains strong sanctions for using a firearm in the commission of an offence.
fines/prison 10 years � 250k, for making parts, conspiring to traffic, etc�.
The attraction of such laws is that they do not impinge upon those who wish to possess a firearm but have no intention of using it to commit an offence (e.g. sporting shooters). There are two problems, however, with efforts to reduce gun crime focused solely on sanctioning those who use firearms in the commission of an offence. Firstly, many offences involving firearms are not premeditated or are committed by people indifferent to the prospect of apprehension and punishment. Secondly, the larger the supply of legally owned firearms in the community, the easier it is for firearms to fall into the hands of those willing to use them in the commission of crime.
An anonymous phone-in campaign, similar to the child sex abuse hotline Operation Paradox, will be held, targeting those suspected of possessing illegal firearms. Operation Struthers II will focus on high-risk locations around Sydney's Kings Cross with a stronger police presence and searches of those suspected of carrying weapons. They'll also be using metal detectors. The campaigns would be supported by NSW crime agencies investigating South East Asian crime in an effort to curb the illegal gun trade.

We don�t need more draconian laws such as the call to ban handguns entirely by the coalition for gun control. This happened in the UK after Dunblane, - and since, Crime involving handguns has rocketed. We need more resources put into preventing illegal importation, sale, and possession.

Should you wish to personally check the actual figures, they are available at; www.aic.gov.au/stats/aust/australia.html http://www.aic.gov.au http://www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/bocsar1.nsf/pages/index http://www.converge.org.nz/pma/gunaus.htm

And this;
Media release: Firearms and Violent Crime
Release date: 6 June 2001
Homicides and robberies with firearms have declined over the last few years in New South Wales but non-fatal shooting offences have increased. These are two of the key findings to emerge from a new research study on firearm violence released today by the NSW Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research.
The Bureau report shows that in 1995 there were nearly 30 homicides involving firearms in New South Wales but last year only about half this number of firearm homicide offences occurred. Robberies involving firearms increased from 677 in 1995 to more than 1,100 in 1997 but fell back to 655 last year.
Non-fatal shooting offences remained relatively stable between 1995 and 1998 but increased from about 50 offences in 1998 to nearly 100 offences last year. The increase in shooting offences involving handguns has been particularly marked, with less than 10 of these offences in 1995 but more than 40 of them last year.


5. People who can't admit when they're wrong, have major insecurity issues. ;-)