america does not understand or comprehend war. when they think of war they think of a diffrent news story, and more flags being waved, and perhaps a distant friend joining the armed forces.

america has not being exposed to war. WW2 did not come close enough for people to experience it, and they have not had any involvement on home soil since. it is a game for them.

they do not see people starving, cowering in shelled houses, the family of dead soldiers and civilians alike, mutilated bodies and mass graves. they are occasionally shown on the happy CNN news to prove how evil the enemy is. europe has seen this and remebers WW2.

this is how america can engage in war with so much enthusiasm, the natural isolatedness of the country and the governments attempt to mask the real effects of war with pictures of heroic marines brutally killing all the enemy, no matter who it is at the time.

also, american war is a highly skilled and organised group complete with gunships and fighter craft going after a terrified starving outnumbered enemy using hunting rifles.

this is really fragmented and im tired, but i think i made my point.

You did, and your right.

These "terrified, starving....." Taliban and AQ had sworn death to America and that they would fight to the death.

They had better be terrified and I hope that they are starving. I also hope they go to meet their maker with the words "Death to America" on their lips. That way when they cross that bridge across the lake of fire, their creator can determine if they warrant paradise.

Nox

they dont see at as war, they see it az " strategic elimination of terrorists " if you have another way to deal with their problem i sugjest u put in a nice envelope with a good hand writing ( you dont want em thinking itz antrax ) and send it to the white house or parachute it over the pentagon. or i guess u can go to afganistan and tell the marines to have less fun killing them. of course, im beeing sarcastic
usa gouvernement is taking this serously indeed

If he was referring to most of the American public, then I agree.

And Nox, the Taliban never had civilian support. They (civilians) aren't really dying with "death to America" on their lips.


[This message has been edited by TheMouse (edited 04-12-2002).]

[This message has been edited by TheMouse (edited 04-12-2002).]

they see the shit that goes on, they send there own people into that shit, they don't care about shit, only territory and money. Guns and drugs. killing and dieing.

other than that; right on

no.
they don't take anything seriously exept money

Once again, American propaganda- "Taliban had no civilian support." My friends, I'm afraid you know very very little about Taliban or Afghanistan; as far as you're concerned, they simply oppress their people in all possible ways for fun and hate America. This is wrong.

Taliban wanted to be FRIENDS with America. They sent one of their representatives over here in early 2001, maybe April or May; just a few months before America's barbaric campaign. He wanted to get help from America, he wanted to make peace with America. Hell, he gave the State Department a nice Afghan rug!

To say Taliban had no civilian support is completely wrong. You think because you see people dancing in the streets that Afghanistan is better now? No. There is chaos in Afghanistan right now. The Interim "Government" has no power right now. Those with power are Rashid Dostum, Gul Agha, or any other of the pedophile/criminal warlords. And this is better?

Women can take off their Burqas (Veils) now, but no one's protecting them from being raped. You can watch TV, but is there food on the table? The movie theaters are open again, but that's not removing any of the landmines. Women have the right to take off their clothes but they don't have the right to live! Women are being sold for fucking bags of flour now! Taliban would NEVER allow this.

The problem is, America sees "Freedom" as: The ability to have entertainment, the ability to take off your clothes. Yet they ignore what is essential for survival. They ignore the simplest rights of the Afghan people- the right to LIVE. Ha! They "Liberate" Afghanistan, yet deny Afghans the right to live by dropping "misguided" bombs onto villages. 9,000 Afghan civilians have been killed by George Bush's bloody hands; and this is no exaggeration. And Mullah Omar, Osama BinLadin, Ayman Al-Zawahiri are all alive and well, along with most of the Taliban commanders and Generals.

Taliban, on the other hand, recognized everyone's basic needs. You start with the basics, and work your way up. Before Taliban came to power, Afghan people had NO RIGHTS- not even John Locke's "Natural Rights" (Life, Liberty, Property). You can't go from that state to complete freedom and perfect society; any idiot can tell you that...except George Whiskey Bush. That's why most of the Afghan people actually supported them; because they ended the warlords' stupid fighting. In the 5-6 years the Mujahideen government was in power, what did they accomplish? Killing each other? Razing Kabul to the ground? Raping women? Creating a few million more refugees? This is why people cheered when Taliban began their offensive on Kabul and the "Mujahideen" (holy fighters) withdrew.

Therefore, get your facts straight. Stop trying to demonize the Taliban just because they don't accept Western values. Cheers.

[This message has been edited by TariqMujahid (edited 04-17-2002).]

thing that pisses me off is that right after it happened all th americans started saying kill the afghanies...not the taliban but the towelheads...

i just cant understand why there are so many stupid americans out there, they dont watch the news, and if they do its the american news where they obviously bend the truth fr moral

a couple hours after 911 i seen some fatass redneck from texas on the news saying US should nuke iraq...what a fucking moron i wish i could spit into his face...

before 911 us has been getting tons of signs that they were not wanted by anyone in their country( i dont mean tourists, but military for help) there have been serveral bombing at us embacies all over the place, and they still dont get it...

TheMouse,

I never talked about the civiilians dying with "Death to America" on their lips. Look carefully, it was the Taliban and AQ I was talking about. I still stand by that post. I will add this thought, many Afghans voted with their feet when war approached (just like civilians throughout history). There are probably a variety of reasons why not everyone left. My guess is that the major reason was that the remaining "innocent civilians" supported the Taliban and AQ, and felt that somehow Allah would see to it that their side won.

Sometimes it takes more than faith the size of a mustard seed (How's that for mixing religions?).

Nox

Americans do not understand the essence of war... Some days will go to America, some days to the other side. War is not a 6 month thing. In Afghanistan, this war will last a long time; and it sure as hell is not over yet. Remember- Taliban's offensives were always in the Spring and Late Summer. What makes you think they will not continue this pattern? No one fights in Afghanistan during the winter.

Do you want to know why they "collapsed" so quickly? Taliban cares about the Afghans (i know it might break your Fox News American Nationalist heart to read this). They realized that by staying in the cities, it would be the civilians who suffered the most from American bombs. If they cared, they'd put up a hell of a fight like they did in Kunduz, Tora Bora, Zawar Kili or Gardez. BTW-in each of these battles, America claimed to kill hundreds, even thousands, of the enemy..but NEVER found the bodies to back these claims. If 300 sheep were killed in Afghanistan, it would be difficult to cover that up...if 300 people were killed, it would not be easy to hide.

The guerilla war has just begun, and American aircrafts cannot do anything to stop it. Against a superior enemy, you do not fight one big battle...that is idiotic. Instead, you fight a hundred small battles. This is called unilateral warfare, I believe. I might be wrong; but I think that's the term- where a superior force is fighting an ill-equipped, determined force employing unconventional tactics. Another interesting point- American planes are crashing all the time in Afghanistan from "technical failure". Now, why is America, the richest, most technologically advanced nation in the world, using such crashy airplanes (maybe Microsoft is helping, I don't know)? "Technical Failure"...hah! And since when do you fall 1000 feet out of the sky in a helicopter and escape with a broken leg? Do you not see how little sense the Pentagon is making?

Guerilla war was successful with Hizballah in Lebanon, the Afghan Mujahideen against the Soviets, the Chechen Mujahideen, the VietCong in Vietnam...do you not read history?

Remember: Some days will go to America, some will go to Taliban/Al-Qaeda. America has to leave Afghanistan eventually, and Taliban & Al-Qaeda are far stronger than the "Interim Government" and all its infighting.

I can't believe your post.

You implied that the Taliban cared about the Afghani people. I guess all those folks at the soccer stadium didn't get the big picture. Plus all those worthless, feminist broads need to keep their ugly faces covered so Afghanistan could stay beautiful.

The Taliban ran because they were beaten. All that macho bravado is great for TV, but when real red blood leaks out of your body, that's when the rubber meets the road. Speaking of rubber and road, that's exactly what happened. As far as going to the caves, that's the only place they had to hide. Obviously you missed the stories about what happened to the remaining Taliban and AQ in the cities.

Nox

Nox, I'm afraid there is no debating with you...or any other brainwashed American for that matter. You judge every other culture by American standards and way of life, and your posts prove what I'm saying. All you do is tell us what you heard on the TV screen last night or the night before, thinking that by repeating it or saying it louder, it may sink in a bit more. But the truth is, bullshit is still bullshit.

When the American casualties start to mount from "accidental explosions" and "technical failure", perhaps you will get the picture. Then I will laugh. Until then, just wait; keep supporting your "brave" soldiers , the ones who carpet bomb villages and a poorly armed force from 7 miles in the sky...and I will support Taliban, the only true legitimate government of Afghanistan.

why the fuck don't you leave. seriously get the fuck out of this country, You hate this country It hates you, move to the godforsaken third world where you can be free to burn effigies and flags while you persue your lifelong dream of impregnating a camel. I could argue You about the morlity of this and recriminations would go back and forth, but why fucking bother, You obviously hate this country And Im pretty sure most every one in it hates you, so get the hell out you goat fucking son of a bitch.

I mean what happened to the days when Expatriots Would actualy expatriate you lazy motherfucker.

wow.
did he hit a nerve?
did he ruin your faith in the government and show you that almost everything that you have been told about the 'war' is wrong. did that upset you?

most of the stuff he said was just basic logic, and follow ons from that.

one thing, there has been fighting in that area for a very long time, they know how to fight, so if everyone hated the taliban so much, why were they allowed to stay in power?

the point about people beliveing technical failure is a good one. there must have been half a dozen helicopter crashes and the like there, and thats all in 6 months. did you know that the US claimed to find a hijackers passport near the WTC remains. did anyone else see how many papers came out, and they say that they find a passport. no one can possibly belive that.

im just wondering what your story is, TariqMujahid. did you live there? how long ago did you move away?

Haha..."Leave the country". I really must have hit the nerve! lol. Look- i'm an American patriot too; but i'm not an idiot. I believe in what our founding fathers believed, and the current government is showing blatant disregard for it. They're limiting our basic civil liberties with "Patriot Acts" and other nonsense. I don't hate America; i hate Bush, Congress, and the Administration.

No, i never lived in Afghanistan. My father is from Pakistan, but that's as close as i get to the region. For my news, i read newspapers from different countries...usually Pakistani, Palestinian, Lebanese, and British papers. Anyhow, I just love when i strike nerves and people start asking me to leave the country.

I fully believe in getting all points of view, however, if you think this "brainwashed" American believes that you unbiased Pakistani paper gives you the facts, you are sadly mistaken. The very freedoms you enjoy in this country would not be granted in your fathers Pakistan. Example....in this country, any murderer stands the posibility of execution (depending on state). Not so in Pakistan. The Pakistani's have a built-in bias against non-muslims, by law.

I am curious though, why did your father leave Pakistan?

Nox

No its just that Logical argeument Has become to cumbersome a forum. No you are not an american patriot at most you are a liberal motherfucker who likes to protest how they are different and therefore moraly superior. You're just like those idiot who bitch about how we A bombed the japanese. The US was deliberately attacked in such a way as To cause maximum civilian casualties by a terrorist group suported by those goddamned camel raping bedsheet wearing motherfuckers and then when we retaliate with full rights to do so you get all touchy feely about how the taliban is a government and how the al quida prisoners are prisoners of war well goddamnit these mother fuckers killed Us citizens who just had the misfortune of going to work that day. It seems to me that some one who doesn't give two hoots in hell about the lives of their countrymen can hardly be deemed a patriot even by the most PC definitions made so no one w2ould have to be excluded and feel bad.

"retaliate"?
retaliation would require going after the people who did it, not the government of the place that the media created leader of a terrorist organisation happened to be.
i remeber the taliban saying give us proof and well hand him over. the us bravely said no negotiations, then proceded to bomb them.

you might want to realise, that calling someone a non patriot isn't really that offending. some people can see through that nationalistic bullshit and the mind control that the government has on its citizens. the state says go die for us, while we sit here bitching, and you obey.

I love this Nationalist Bullshit. Do they really think I care if they tell me I'm not a patriot? Or if they 'order' me to leave the country? No, I don't...and they know it. So they resort to childish name-calling: "Camel raping bedsheet wearing motherfuckers." Grow up man; I can't believe anyone would let a dumbass like you be moderator. Apparently, I'm a "liberal" now. Look- I'm a Taliban supporter...would you call Taliban "Liberals"? Now that I think about it, someone as brain damaged as you probably would.

Maybe when you stop thinking America and Americans are a superior race and always right, you can hold a mature political conversation. Also, knowing when to use commas, periods, and capitalization always helps.

Tariq,

The question remains, why did your father leave Pakistan?

Nox

Sorry for not answering that... I honestly don't know why he left Pakistan, maybe he thought the West was better? At first, he moved to the Bahamas and married my mother. I was born in the Bahamas. Then they decided that the schooling was better in the United States than in the Bahamas, so we moved here.

But now, he tells me all the time how much he hates Bush, Ashcroft, Rumsfeld, Condoleezza Rice, etc. Sometimes he goes on to say he hates Jews; but I don't think he's an anti-Semite. Then other times, he says he wants to go "back home", and feels guilty for leaving. He hates the American government though..and if you're wondering, I didn't pick up my disdain for the US govt. from him.

I love it when I hear people refer to anti-semitic as meaning anti-jew. Obviously, common usage comes into play. If you are an anti-semite, you are anti all semitic peoples including Jews, Arabs, and Palistinians.

Nox

Patriotism is caring about the people of your country. Patriotism is not supporting the people that participated, conpired, aided, and abeited in the murder of ones countrymen. I don't need to hear the definition of what patriotism is from some whining anarco syndicalist and a traitorous brat.