As of today, I will be eighteen in one month and twenty-one days. This momentous passing will (finally) allow me to legally possess firearms. I've got the cash - so what do I get?

My first impulse was to buy a handgun of some sort. They're superior for personal protection purposes, and more importantly, they're easily concealable. This is important, because I live with liberals. Even after I move out, I'll be going to a school (probably the University of Iowa) that frowns on weapons in the dorms.

It was at this point that I became familiar with federal laws concerning handguns. Apparently, I'm not allowed to effectively defend myself until the age of 21. Well, fuck you, too, Uncle Sam. My problem was simple - how could I procure a firearm that was both concealable and legal?

I've found an apparent compromise - the Henry Repeating Arms AR-7. It's technically a rifle, but it collapses into several components and folds up into a neat little package. Even better,it's semiautomatic, a definite bonus in my opinion. And it fires cheap and simple .22LR's. AND it's dirt cheap. So I might just go with that.

Thoughts? Comments? I'm new at this, so please feel free to critique my logic here. Just keep it constructive.

I once considered the AR-7 as my first gun. Then, I asked and read around. I changed my mind. The AR-7 has a poor reputation of reliability. The sears tend to wear, making them go full auto when you least expect it. The thin barrel also affects accuracy.

The Ruger 10/22 is one of the cheapest and most popular .22 LR rifles on the market. There are accessories galore.

Later on, get a Ruger MKII pistol, or similar, like a Ruger .22 revolver (what can I say, Ruger makes good guns). Learning to Use a pistol well takes practice, and with a .22 you can do lots of that.

After that, the sky's the limit.

I got my first gun wen i was 12! I'd go for a Winchester bolt action .357. not nececarily good for concieling, but it's a nice rifle. Remember, wen yur lookin' for ammo, go for the power of the weatherby. there's nothin better.

[This message has been edited by Xanthos (edited 12-31-2002).]

mine was/is a glock 20 (10 mm) and it thumps hard on shit

Jesus H. Christ, you started with a 10mm? Though art hardcore.

Concealability is THE number one concern here. I need to be able to hide this thing. My parents automatically assume that anybody with a gun is plotting to kill people, so they'd freak out and think I was about to waste my math class or something.

Does anybody know any legal loopholes whereby I could score a pistol/revolver? I think private sellers can sell them to 18-year-olds, at least in this state, but buying ammo would still fill me with rage and frustration.

The only loophole I know of is if you join the armed services or become a cop.

A beretta tomcat,

22lr. very easliy conciled, remebr you have to get a CCW to carry.

CTR

for a first time gun owner it would be good to have a 9mm. It can be used for shooting at ranges and for protection and is somewhat concealable. Then work your way up into getting a 38 special. If you want a VERY concealable weapon solely for protection then get a beretta .25... very small ass gun.

Armed&Angry,

quote:

---

Does anybody know any legal loopholes whereby I could score a pistol/revolver? I think private sellers can sell them to 18-year-olds, at least in this state, but buying ammo would still fill me with rage and frustration.

---

That basically is the "loophole". All dealers are federally mandated and must uphold the 18/21 law. Although from looking through your state statutes you can possess a firearm which is a handgun by purchasing private party.

Ammunition, well there are plenty of rifles that also shoot .22, 9MM even .45 lol.

So basically you tell the clerk the ammunition is for a rifle, show your ID proving you are eighteen years of age and you are good to go.

If you purchased a 9MM you could say you have a COLT AR15 with a 9MM UPPER =)

quote:

---

Concealability is THE number one concern here. I need to be able to hide this thing.

---

Forget about concealing it on your person until you're twenty one years of age (legal age in minnesota to be able to obtain a CHL). Although you can walk around in your home and on your properity with a concealed firearm all you want. Firearm transport laws in your state, if i recall are pretty strict and require transport of the firearm in a seperate container from ammo, not in sight and not in reach (basically your trunk).

You could find some type of safe that you can bolt down in the trunk of your car. Walmart sells "sentry" fire safes, decent sized ones for about $20-30.00 each. You could attach some straps to it, etc, and secure it to the trunk of your car.

If you get stopped by law enforcement, from my understanding, in minnesota you are NOT required to tell them you have a firearm in your car. I would not tell them UNLESS they ask, then carefully describe what type of gun it is, where it's at and the condition it's stored in. If you do a good job they probabaly won't show too much intrest and go about the inital reason why they stopped you.

HailHound,

quote:

---

The only loophole I know of is if you join the armed services or become a cop.

---

In plenty of states it is legal for someone to possess a handgun at the age of eighteen.

Dealers (FFL'S) are mandated by the feds and must uphold the 18/21 law.

[This message has been edited by I Love Poop (edited 12-31-2002).]

hailhound makes good suggestions.
i've heard of the problem with sears in the ar-7, but henry arms has apparently solved it. I was thinking of buying one for a while. It got great reviews in guns&ammo a couple years back. I think it's a very appealing rifle. also the ammo is dirt cheap.

the ruger 10/22 is an excellent investment as well. I would never get rid of mine. It's accurate, reliable, and you can get factory magazines pretty cheap now.

I definitly wouldn't advise carrying concealed until you're 21 and/or have a permit. (depending where you are)
I got my permit about 6 months ago, and it feels good to be legal. Also, it gives me a sense of well being. As cheesy as it sounds, it's quite a responsability.

also i wouldn't recommend anything in .25acp. It's not a very good round although usually the firearms chambered for it are easily concealed.
The .22lr has a greater percentage of one shot stops. Not by much, but the .22 is cheaper and more accurate.
but, any gun is better than none. (9 times out of 10)

Let us know what firearm you decide to get.
good luck


[This message has been edited by ubermutant (edited 12-31-2002).]

The first fire-arm was a caveman who set his arm on fire and scarred away the other cavemen and then got to eat all their broncosaurus legs.

quote:

---

Originally posted by SATURNROCKETX:
The first fire-arm was a caveman who set his arm on fire and scarred away the other cavemen and then got to eat all their broncosaurus legs.

---

I'm gay huh?

When I say "concealability," I mean how easy it is to hide it from my parents. I'm not suggesting that I wanna walk around town with a dissassembled AR7 in a holster.

I've also heard that Henry Arms has fixed most of the problems in the AR7. If I can't find a private seller to hook my up with a decent .22 pistol, I think I'll go with the rifle.

Next question: Is there some way I can quickly and easily find out about people in my area who're willing to sell their handgun? A database or something.

yeah i didn't assume you were going to carry a disassmbled rifle in your back pocket.
I think a personal sale is the way to go as far as selling a pistol underage goes.
An ar-7 would be the ideal rifle for hiding from your parents, and the best bang for your buck.
But, you're going to be 18 soon. You'll be an "adult" and be entitled by law to own and maintain a rifle. You're parents shouldn't have any say in the matter. I know it's different because you live with them, but try to make them understand.
You shouldn't be required to hide something guaranteed by the constitution from your parents.

Why would you want a .22? It has like no stopping power at all. And most times, your enemy is going to be within 10 or 15 feet so when u put 3 .22 rounds in his ass, he can still run at you unless you shoot him in the head. First of all, In Michigan, You have to have a CCW to carry a concielded (sp) pistol. You can buy a rifle no questions asked i believe but you have to be 18 to OWN a pistol but you have to be 21 to buy froma public seller. In other words, your dad would buy a usp or something and he could sell or give it to you. You could also buy from any other private seller. But back to the arguement of Calibur. My father owns a SIG 220. It uses .45 cal rounds. Good for stopping power, wont shoot thru a wall and kill other people, but with definetly stop people. The 9mm is really weak and it goes along the same lines as a .22. It is really just too weak. It doesnt have that stopping power. But i mean for your first pistol, goto a gun show and check out whats goin on. If it's a private seller, go for it. Be sure to clean it and all that good stuff. Well im out. Happy New Year.

quote:

---

Next question: Is there some way I can quickly and easily find out about people in my area who're willing to sell their handgun? A database or something.

---

Get together a bunch of cash and start looking thru the newpapers in the classified section. Usually under "sporting goods". Call and make inquires. Before you make your purchase let us know what you've narrowed your choices down and i'll try and give you a few pointers.

quote:

---

The 9mm is really weak and it goes along the same lines as a .22

---

Hahahahahahahahahaha! Okay whatever you say buddy =/

quote:

---

It doesnt have that stopping power.

---

Please take your "stopping power" over to more www.hollywoodbullshit.com thank you =)

Premium nine millimeter factory self defense ammunition will reliably expand to on average 0.6-0.7" (from a inital .355") and while doing so penatrate 12-15+"

You could concern yourself with "stopping power" and get yourself a .50BMG or .454CAUSAL or concentrate on what takes you from capable of launching a attack to a significiant quick loss of blood pressure from your adversary putting him or her down. Basically if you can hit them three to four times with your nine millimeter, they will bleed out a lot faster than one hit with your forty five.

Although I would never depend on anything smaller than a nine millimeter (.355) or .38special (revolver) when it came to personal defense.

I'm gonna go over this one more time. This gun is not for shooting anything larger than squirrels. It is meant to simply introduce me to the care and use of a firearm. I'm not looking for something that I can carry on me, although if I did find something along those lines, it would help in the future.

I can't just tell my parents I'm buying a rifle. They won't get it. These are the same people who saw www.strike-the-root.com in my browser history and felt a need to talk to me and make sure I wasn't planning on becoming a milita member or a terrorist. My parents cannot know of this gun until I'm out of the house, and preferably I'll have a couple years under my belt at college.

I'll start checking classifieds, and I'll get back to you on what items I can find.

quote:

---

Originally posted by I Love Poop:
Basically if you can hit them three to four times with your nine millimeter, they will bleed out a lot faster than one hit with your forty five.

---

Yea exactly the point. You have to shoot them 3 or 4 times to get them down. The IDEA behind that is they aren't gunna stand there and get shot. They're gunna jump at you or move around. With a .45 you can shoot them once and they are down. The 9mm isn't like the .22, that was kind of a mis-statement. I meant it's a high velocity round that will go into the person and not keep them down as easily as a .45 . Hey, thats just my opinion on things. Poop, you can go love your 38 special or 9mm, but if I was in a tight spot, I would rather only have to put 1 round into someone rather then 4.

Any gun of any caliber is better than none.

Armed, i'd go with the ar-7 for it's compactness given your situation.

Wait! I have a plan...

Suppose I were to get a 21-year-old friend of mine to purchase a handgun, and then "sell" it to me. As long as I'm 18, is there anything illegal about that? I mean, hey, it is technically a private sale. It seems like a no-brainer, but I figured I'd ask, since the gubmint occasionally has a habit of being comprised of assholes who think locking an 18-year-old polisci major up for no reason is "serving my constituents."

Im pretty sure that is an OK deal as long as you don't have any felonys. In michigan to get a handgun you have to goto your local PD and get a permit for each gun you buy unless you have a CCW. So you should have your friend buy it, sell it to you and get a permit for it. Then you should be set. You should probably check your local laws before you do this because each state is different.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Armed&Angry:
Wait! I have a plan...

Suppose I were to get a 21-year-old friend of mine to purchase a handgun, and then "sell" it to me. As long as I'm 18, is there anything illegal about that? I mean, hey, it is technically a private sale. It seems like a no-brainer, but I figured I'd ask, since the gubmint occasionally has a habit of being comprised of assholes who think locking an 18-year-old polisci major up for no reason is "serving my constituents."

---

Dog screw what is legal an whats not just buy a gun off the street, an keep it in your house an dont get caught with it.Its not illegal until you get caught.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Xanthos:
I got my first gun wen i was 12! I'd go for a Winchester bolt action .357. not nececarily good for concieling, but it's a nice rifle. Remember, wen yur lookin' for ammo, go for the power of the weatherby. there's nothin better.

[This message has been edited by Xanthos (edited 12-31-2002).]

---

Its great that you got "yur" first gun "wen" you were 12, but when are you getting your first frigging DICTIONARY?

Aw, JESUS CHRIST! You managed to spell that badly even AFTER you edited?

cc

quote:

---

Originally posted by cola:
Im pretty sure that is an OK deal as long as you don't have any felonys. In michigan to get a handgun you have to goto your local PD and get a permit for each gun you buy unless you have a CCW. So you should have your friend buy it, sell it to you and get a permit for it. Then you should be set. You should probably check your local laws before you do this because each state is different.

---

I'm loving Minnesota more all the time... there's nothing here saying that a an 18-year-old can't buy a gun privately, and I've never heard of any permit requirement for simple ownership, but I'll have to research it a little more.

On the upside, be glad you don't live in Wisconsin. No concealed carry, period.

Armed&Angry,

quote:

---

As long as I'm 18, is there anything illegal about that?

---

That's basically how i got my first handgun before i was twenty one years of age.

Have what you want picked out in advance and make sure your friend doesn't tell the clerk it's not for him. On the form 4473 that he will fill out (basic federal form to purchase a handgun) it specifically asks "are you the actual purchaser of the firearm". He must answer "yes" lol.

If you were not legal (i.e., had a felony convinction record) and not able to possess a firearm this action could be coined as a "straw purchase" which is unlawful.

Otherwise happy shopping =)

quote:

---

I've never heard of any permit requirement for simple ownership

---

Not in minnesota he was refering to his home state of michigan.

Have you came up with some ideas for storage? I remember you saying that your parents must not know you own a firearm while living under their roof.

quote:

---

Dog screw what is legal an whats not just buy a gun off the street, an keep it in your house an dont get caught with it.Its not illegal until you get caught.

---

illprophet, with thinking like that i'd assume you found a good criminal defense attorney that you put on retainer? =)

I doubt storage will be a problem. At various times I've hidden in my room as many as 26 empty beer bottles, several 8th bags of marijuana, a LOT of knives, and several airguns. I'm a rather resourceful fellow ;-)

[This message has been edited by Armed&Angry (edited 01-03-2003).]

I found another rifle that seems fairly simple to conceal... anybody got info on the Kel-Tec SUB rifle? It's chambered for 9mm luger, so I suppose I could defend my home with it if I really had to. And it's semiauto, mmmmmmm. If you know of any massive problems with this rifle, do tell.

I'm not sure of all the details. When I was a sheriffs reserve deputy, there was a 19 year old reservist that bought his new HK through a dealer and all the paperwork was legit. If I remember right, he needed a letter on department letterhead and his department id card. Everything was done legit and he was even allowed to carry concealed in New Mexico like the older reservists were.

I don't know if it was a special situation and he just slipped through a loophole or if there is an exception for people in his situation.

I'm in the same boat as Armed & Angry, except I live in Wisconsin. (accepting pity) I wanted to start out with a .45ACP because of my uncontrolable attraction to the 1911. My parents aren't as crazy, thank god, but the government is.
Well there is no concealed carry, but what about carrying a big machette or something. Our laws talk about concealed weapons being illegal, so it could also mean non-firearms as well. Any thoughts?

How the hell would you conceal a machette, anyway? ;-)

Anyway, the delightful thing about concealed weapons is that they're so damn hard to see. However, I do know a friend of a friend who got pulled over by the cops and didn't tell them he had his swiss army knife on him. They searched and found it, and he went down for concealed carry without a permit. Not cool.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Armed&Angry:
I found another rifle that seems fairly simple to conceal... anybody got info on the Kel-Tec SUB rifle? It's chambered for 9mm luger, so I suppose I could defend my home with it if I really had to. And it's semiauto, mmmmmmm. If you know of any massive problems with this rifle, do tell.

---

Hold off and get the new Kel Tec chambered for the .223. Its one SHARP rifle. Hopefully it'll use AR-15 mags (really hi-caps!)

BTW, they call it a Sports Utility Rifle. The soccer mom's will just LOVE it!

cc

The Kel-Tec SU-16 is probable coming out in February and it looks pretty sweet. Quote from the website:
"SHOT-SHOW
The annual Shot-Show will be held in Orlando in February 2003. Kel-Tec will introduce two new products."

Here is a pic http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1924

quote:

---

Originally posted by Armed&Angry:
[B]How the hell would you conceal a machette, anyway? ;-)B]

---

Where there's a will, Armed and Angry, there's a way.

In the USA you can go into sporting goods store and boats stores and purchase a Flare gun for some reason they call it a safety device and not a firearm. If you want a concealable self defense tool it would work the flare is a little bigger than a shotgun shell. It has a slow velocity but its a large piece of pyrophoric magnesium that burns at 2000 degrease . you get shot with you'll be Alain. The gun could probably shoot the flair 100 feet, but I'm not sure accuracy.

Just scoped out that SU-16 pic. Christ almighty, damn neato looking. I want, I want.

If that's out of my price range - I don't recall hearing a dollar amount - I think I might just go with the SUB-2000. I read around online, and it seems to be a quality weapon for a reasonable price.

Next question: Anybody know of a book that explains the basics of firearm ownership - cleaning, legal shit, etc.? I've been using airguns for a while, so I'm familiar with the rules of weapon safety, but I'm sure there's other shit to know.

As far as any legal reference manuals. Try going to a gun store. Here in florida practically ever gun store has a green book that's called something along the lines of "florida gun law" or was "florida gun law in plain english." There probabaly is something simular covering the state of minnesota.

Firearm law center - click on your state
http://www.firearmslawcenter.org/content/home.asp


Packing.org - click on the state ccw information tab
www.packing.org

As far as cleaning goes hoppes sells a product "universal gun cleaning kit" for about $12.00 it'll work with the majority of the pistol calibers, rifle and shotgun calibers. Pick up a couple of bore brushes and some breakfree clp and you're good to go. Generally clean your gun after each time you shoot it and you won't have any problems.

The manual that comes with your firearm will have the ten basic rules of firearm safety, but it's all common sense stuff.

If you go to the shooting range by yourself, just follow the posted "range rules". The worst thing you can do with your firearm at the range is sweep someone with the muzzle in a adjacent lane.

it would be a scary thought to think of some of you guys carrying around a concealed loaded pistol. im all for self defense, and the right to bear arms and all, but i dont think nutcases or paranoid/aggressive kids should ever carry a gun around

quote:

---

Originally posted by SKD:
it would be a scary thought to think of some of you guys carrying around a concealed loaded pistol. im all for self defense, and the right to bear arms and all, but i dont think nutcases or paranoid/aggressive kids should ever carry a gun around

---

Oh. My. God. You have got to be fucking with me. Precisely what have us "paranoid/aggressive kids" done to earn your ire, oh master of wisdom? We are dying to know.

In any case, thanks for the tips. Next question - ammo cost. If I get a SUB-2000, I'm gonna need to keep it fed with plenty of 9mm +p - it's built specifically for +p loads. How much would that cost me? Anybody got a price per hundred rounds?

No need to get angry, I beleive he is referring to people such as SaturnrocketX and Hired_Gun.

I just assumed he wasn't refering to me or some of the other more reputable members of this forum =)

Armed&Angry, hummmmmm... i'd try pushing a box of standard nine millimeter through your firearm first and see how it performs. Winchester White Box (value pack) 115grain FMJ's are what I use for range ammo they go for $12.00 per 100 rounds at walmart.

Otherwise anything nato, +P or +P+ is going to run you a little more, on average of $15.00 per 50 rounds and up. You could always get into reloading and save some cash in the long run. Something which i've been putting off doing for a long time.

I occasionally see some Hirtenbringer fmj (probabaly mispelled on my part) +P and +P+ subgun ammo going for 50 per $15.00

When it comes to premium self defense nine millimeter, probabaly the two leading choices would be...

Winchester Ranger T Series 127grain +P+ JHP - about $25.00 per 50 rounds.

Federal 124grain +P+ JHP - about $22.00 per 50 rounds.

Shit... the SUB-2000 is built specifically for 9mm +p. I've been hearing stories of lotsa jamming when standard rounds are used. I could try it anyway... and even if it doesn't feed standard rounds, Kel-Tec is pretty good about sending you the stuff necessary to take it down a notch. I just don't like the idea of having to explain to my parents why Kel-Tec Firearms is sending me packages.

That SU-16 looks like one kickass gun, to the point where I'm leaning towards that. How big is a .223 Remington? Do they kick real bad? Think it's too big for a first timer?

[This message has been edited by Armed&Angry (edited 01-06-2003).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Armed&Angry:
Shit... the SUB-2000 is built specifically for 9mm +p. I've been hearing stories of lotsa jamming when standard rounds are used. I could try it anyway... and even if it doesn't feed standard rounds, Kel-Tec is pretty good about sending you the stuff necessary to take it down a notch. I just don't like the idea of having to explain to my parents why Kel-Tec Firearms is sending me packages.

That SU-16 looks like one kickass gun, to the point where I'm leaning towards that. How big is a .223 Remington? Do they kick real bad? Think it's too big for a first timer?

[This message has been edited by Armed&Angry (edited 01-06-2003).]

---

Just a couple of comments.

FWIW, "Kel-Tec Firearms" won't be sending you packages. They'll be coming from Kel-Tec CNC Industries, Inc.

Now hold on a second. I was reading your earlier posts in this thread. You said that this rifle was for shooting squirrels, etc. A .223 is NOT what you want for that. Neither is a 9mm. Just get a nice .22LR bolt action or semi-auto.

How about that AR-7?

Bottom line is decide what you are looking for and then it will be a LOT easier to find the right gun.

cc

i didnt name anyone in particular, but the fact you jumped at my remark might say something.

though i didnt particularly have you in mind

seriously though, most of the people here arnt quite of age yet. you have 15 year olds talking about carrying guns and all. would you trust a 15 year old to be responsible with a loaded gun in his pocket ? it is theorised that teenagers drink drive and speed, because they cant comprehend the consequences of their actions (their mind isnt mature enough). im thinking that little kiddies (under 21) carrying loaded pistols isnt a good idea either. too immature, too easily spooked into drawing their weapon, too hot headed to rationally use it for its proper use (self defence).

the majority of people over 30 would make good candidates for gun carry. id be willing to give up my own right to carry a gun (im 18 at the moment), if i knew that there were more responsible citizens carrying guns, and not just kids thinking they are such a target that they need to carry.

plus, im not sure if id be happy with kids my age being able to carry a gun. believe me, a lot of the people i know just arnt responsible enough yet. and i know good people, not drunks and drug addicts. id like to think that the next time someone my age doesnt like something i say, he wont have the opportunity to shoot the crap out of me.

but hey, i live in australia, the land of gun control. but im trying to present a logical argument to one of the limits of the freedom to bear arms.

Well, after some thought, I'm really not sure anymore. I mean, I could go with that AR-7, but then, target shooting and squirrel hunting are ALL that it'll be good for. Maybe the rest of you have a pretty good flow of income, but I can't afford a new gun constantly. If possible, I'd like a weapon I could grow into.

This is why I came to Totse before simply hauling off and buying a gun. I need any advice people can give. Back to the original topic - good gun for a beginner. If an AR-7 is really the gun you folks would recommend, I'll give it another look. But I'm trying to stay flexible.

But dude, what do you want it FOR? You talk about growing into it, but a gun is not a pair of shoes. Personally I think you should wait a little longer and read up a lot more before plunking down hard cash for something you may simply not need right now.

That said, if you want a gun for personal security, concealability from the parental units, and fun to take to the range now and then... find a way to get a 3-4" .38 revolver. Dependable and easy for a novice, concealable from the parents now, and possibly CCW later (when legal, ok?)

Just don't shoot any squirrels with it.

cc

quote:

---

If an AR-7 is really the gun you folks would recommend, I'll give it another look.

---

I never recommended this firearm. Start off with atleast a decent nine millimeter and then work your way up in calibers. You'll wish you had after taking that gun to the range a couple times.

I suppose all the hitman wannabes would reccomend the AR-7 in a heartbeat.

This thing has gotten all over the place - maybe we should start from the top. Originally, I just wanted a gun that I could use to go plinking with friends, and I would upgrade to a practical self-defense weapon at some point in the indeterminate future. But the more I think about it, the more I'd rather get a defensive weapon now.

I don't have tons and tons of cash, and I don't foresee EVER having tons and tons of cash (pity me, I'm a PoliSci major). As a result, I'd like to have to buy as few guns as possible. A good defensive weapon can protect me, and I can still plink with it if I want to - indeed, for entirely pragmatic purposes, I'd have to do a fair amount of practicing with it anyway, right?

So, let me reevaluate what I'm looking for here. I want a quality gun that I can use to reliably defend my home. Since I'm only going to be 18, concealed carry seems to be out of the question at the moment.

The more I think about it, the less I think concealability will be a problem. Since I first posted, I've come up with numerous clever ideas for hiding a gun, even if it's a full rifle. In retrospect, I don't think there's really any reason to worry about concealability.

And I'm on a budget. I can go to five hundred bucks - unless I see something truly spectacular.

Spend some time looking around, i've seen used but not abused P228's going for around $450.00

Ruger P95 DC = $200-250.00

I've sometimes seen used USP 9's going for around $500.00

If you seriously want a twenty two caliber for budget plinking grab yourself a Ruger $170.00 Mark II type and then a P95 for something bigger =)

Very plausible post Poop (nice alliteration, oui?).

$500 could easily = 2 guns. A .22 cal plinker and a decent handgun in a decent caliber.

And all for a decent price.

cc

hi-point firearms

very cheap. i hear the quality isnt bad. but if something does go wrong, they will fix it good and proper. ugly guns (well, that is the general concensus, but i dont think they are that bad looking in pics anyway), but it shoots well from what i hear

avaliable in .45 9mm, etc.