I just got a call from my Mom, apparently my paycheck from my last two weeks of work is waiting on me at home. In addition to that I have a business prospect right now which can make me a bit of money (at least enough for a poor college student) quickly. My 21st birthday is next week as well, so I'll soon be able to concealed carry if I buy a pistol. All that being said, I'm finally in a position to purchase a gun.

Even though I'm getting some cash, I can't go all out. I'm planning on budgeting about $250 (the profit that I will make on the business deal) for a new or used gun.

Right now, I'm not sure what I want. I'm looking for either a pistol, carbine, or rifle (I know, pretty wide range.) I plan on buying more weapons in the future, but I want to make a first purchase the will fill my needs until I can afford to buy another gun.

I'm buying the weapon for personal defense against thugs-- both the criminal and the possible jack-booted ones of the future. I'm looking for something that will give me significant penetration, even against vermin with kevlar hides.

As far as pistols go, I'd really like to get a CZ-52. It fires the 7.62x25 round. I like this round because it's available as in FMJ as cheap military surplus. It's supposed to have great penetration against soft body armor. A CZ-52 would cost me about $150 for the weapon, magazine, and holster. That's a pretty good bargain. It's a full size service weapon, but it's pretty thin so it carries a bit better than other service pistols. I have two problems with the weapon, those being range and availablity of ammo. The range problem is inherent to pistols. It would be nice to be able to pick off targets from a longer range, but I know I won't be able to do it with a pistol. While the ammo is available mail order, it would be nice to be able to head over to Wal-Mart and get what ammo I need. Aside from this pistol and cartridge does anyone have suggestions for a good CCW pistol and cartridge that will have significant penetration against up to, say, III-A NIJ standards? I'd love a 10mm converted to BOZZ .224 or a Five-seveN with the SS190, but I can't buy either both for cost and legality reasons.

As far as a carbine goes, I know Marlin and Winchester and I think Remington make some nice lever action carbines firing revolver and smaller rifle caliber rounds. I wouldn't mind a lever action in .44 mag, as long as I can attain the bullets in FMJ form. Also, I know that revolvers configured for .44 mag can also fire .45acp, is this the case with a lever action? A carbine is of course unsuited to concealed carry, but I think it would make a great home defense weapon; although it will lack the range and power of a rifle and also lack the portability of a pistol. It would probably be pretty good in CQB though.

A rifle would be a completely different beast than the carbine and pistol. It would be more effective at long range and crappy at short range. Good for defending a position from far away, but not so good up close. Looking through some ads online, I can get a Czech CZ/VZ-24, which is based on the Mauser 98 action and fires 8mm Mauser, for about $100. I hear ballistically the 8mm Mauser is similar to the .30-06. I guess that would mean one would need level IV armor to prevent penetration from a 8mm Mauser round as the .30-06 requires level IV? Anyone know what ammo availability and price is like for this? I'd imagine surplus ammo is not too expensive. I've also seen a few Enfields in .303 British in my price range. From what I hear this is a very competent round. Anyone know what availability and cost is like for this round? Two rounds I like, but for which the gun might be a bit more pricey, are the .270 and .243 Winchester. Both cartridges are more or less a .308 necked down. I'm just not sure about whether this round can be found in FMJ or if what sounds like it might be JHP (websites often just say "slow controlled expansion") is the best I can do in those calibers. The power of a rifle round and the range are what I like about rifles, even though they're useless for very short range. Maybe if I could affix a bayonet that problem could be solved...

Anyway, that's just what I'm thinking right now. I just found out about the money, so I haven't had the time to check the local pawn shops yet. If anyone has any thoughts, can make a good argument, I'll listen. Thanks for reading through all that shit. By the way, I'm not crazy, I won't go on a shooting rampage against police or anything, but it can't hurt to be really prepared for thugs/civil unrest/zombies/jack booted thugs/etc.

What state do you live in? If you plan to carry a weapon check on your state laws and determine if you can get a permit to carry.
www.packing.org then click on the "state ccw information" tab, following by clicking the state of your choice.

Otherwise, a cheap reliable handgun that i could reccomend, which was actually my first handgun was the Ruger P95DC 9MM. You can pick one up used for about $150.00 and new for about $229.00.

The pistol with a in the waistband holster can be concealed with reasonable ease. Also preban hicapicity fifthteen (15) round magazines are cheap, only demanding a price tag of about $20.00 each. Eighteen (18) round ramline magazines commonly go for $30.00 each.

Range ammunition, FMJ Winchester 115grain 9MM 100ct white box $10.96 at walmart.

Self defense ammunition, JHP Federal, Speer, Winchester Ranger, etc. 20 rounds for $15.00

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It fires the 7.62x25 round.

FMJ

I'd love a 10mm converted to BOZZ .224 or a Five-seveN with the SS190

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All of the above are actually poor when it comes to self defense situations, atleast urban situations you might find yourself. Not the type of round you want on the streets.

Correction / SS109 (european) M855 (american) steel penatrator.

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Originally posted by beatmeofficer:
Also, I know that revolvers configured for .44 mag can also fire .45acp, is this the case with a lever action? .

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Please do not try to do this. You sound like you have potentail as a human being. If you do find some way to cram .45 acp rnds in a .44 mag cylinder and get them to fire, I can't imagine anything good comming of it. You can fire .44 specail and .44 russian rounds out of a .44 mag though.

It sounds like you are worried about body armor wearing combatants. If that is realy the case a good shotgun is the way to go. A one ounce slug will produce enough blunt trama to put anybody down. Even peppering somebody from 10 yards with buckshot out of an cylinder bore will almost guarantee a head and neck strikes if you aim center mass. I have a friend who killed a home invader with a 12 gauge, and he swears by 00 buck.

You can also get 9mm to chamber and fire in a .40 S&W (or vice versa I forget which it was). I saw that at an indoor range one time. It was a pretty interesting sound.

lol no!

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If you do find some way to cram .45 acp rnds in a .44 mag cylinder and get them to fire

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I can't believe i read right past this!

No no no! And no .40S&W in a 9MM or vice-versa lol.

I saw the gun after the guy said he confused the 9mm and .40. I didn't see the round that caused it, but the rest in his magazine were the opposite of what they should have been.

Alright so .45ACP in a gun designed for .44 Mag is a very bad idea. I probably shouldn't have said that I "know" they can work in the same weapon. It was one of those hazy things I thought I'd read somewhere that came from way back in the head.

I'm in Texas. I have no criminal record. I talked with a friend who used to teach CCW courses; He says I shouldn't have a problem.

I looked at the P95DC online and it looks like a pretty nice gun. Reviews I read were favorable. Looking at NIJ standards, it seems level II is rated to stop a 124 grain FMJ 9mm at 1180 fps. A +P load ought to push a 124 or 115 grain over 1200 fps out of a 4 inch barrel, right? In any case, my instructor friend reloads for his Glock 19, so I ought to be able to get him to load me some really high velocity rounds. I'll definitely keep the P95 in mind.

While looking around on the net, I found a great deal on Yugoslav SKS's. The semi-automatic fire and bayonet might make it a better self defense weapon than the bolt-actions I was considering.

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All of the above are actually poor when it comes to self defense situations, atleast urban situations you might find yourself. Not the type of round you want on the streets.

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re: 7.62x25, Bozz .224, and SS109/M855

Are your concerns more with the possibility of overpenetration or with the small size of the holes that these rounds make? In my complete lack of knowledge in the tactical use of firearms, I like rounds that will penetrate deeper rather than bigger rounds. My thinking is that I'd rather have a .30 cal hole going all the way through a person than a .45 that expands to .80 but doesn't penetrate enough to hit vital structures. There are lots of different camps when it comes to terminal ballistics, that's where I am. I might move from there, might not, who knows.


Right now I guess I'm torn between a higher power, less portable rifle, and the less powerful, but more portable pistol. Eventually, I'll own several of both. I'm kind of leaning towards the pistol side right now, but not by far. I'd really hate to need more gun than I have, while at the same time I'd hate to need any gun and not have it on me.

If you're looking for a pistol for concealed carry or self defense you really don't want over penatration.

Quality self defense ammunition chambered in 9MM will penatrate on average 10-15" and expand up to .60" give or take a tenth of a inch.

Sure getting enough penatration is ideal, take for example a slower moving 147grain 9MM. It'll over penatrate but is not moving fast enough to realiably expand. Therefore smaller temporary and pernament tissue cavity = less loss of blood pressure.

A 9MM round that is growing in popularity with law enforcement is the Federal 124grain +P+ i'm tempted to pick up a couple boxes.

You seem pretty concerned about penatrating body armor, why?

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than a .45 that expands to .80 but doesn't penetrate enough to hit vital structures

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Imagine the ammount of blood loss. That's the number one killer unless you're lucky enough to neutralize your target with a upper spinal cord or head shot.

Start off with a pistol, something that fits your hand well, is a natural pointer in your hand, easy to opperate and something you can see yourself concealing well and get your permit to carry.

Eventually get yourself a nice rifle. They are not only fun at the range but i replaced my home defense 12g shotgun with my ar15.

One shot stops are a practically a myth regardless of caliber. Of course shot placement is key. Practice with your gun putting 2-3 quick and accurate COM shots. That's your best bet. Grab a set of snap caps (dummy rounds) when you pick up your pistol and practice dry firing at home. This will get you acquainted with the trigger pull. A lot of shooters loose accuracy in the trigger pull.

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You seem pretty concerned about penatrating body armor, why?

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I probably do seem a little monomaniacal on that point. The reason I want something that will penetrate is half pragmatic and half political. If I'm going to be shooting at someone, I want to incapacitate or kill them no matter what. That won't be the case if someone is wearing body armor and my round won't penetrate it. Street gangsters wearing body armor are probably few and far between, but it can't hurt. As far as politics go, this guy says much of what I would like to say better than I could. Shooting a round that will pierce armor is a 2nd Ammendment issue for me. I think having "cop killer" (ridiculous media buzzword purposely used) rounds helps to maintain a little bit of a balance of power established government and the people.

So, really, I'm not crazy, or at least don't think I am. I know it's silly to let my political beliefs influence selection so heavily, and I try to rationalize, but somehow a very few ideals are deep seated within me and that is one of them.

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That won't be the case if someone is wearing body armor and my round won't penetrate it. Street gangsters wearing body armor are probably few and far between, but it can't hurt.

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lol, you are crazy man. Unless you plan going up against a law enforcement officer, forget it.

12-15" of penatration isn't enough for you? And that's even through a few layers of denium?

my first sugestion is to get some armor of your own.
second is to get a big knife, a sharp one.
third is to have ur palls draw one of the stupid ones into dark area in which you can stab him with the big knife.
forth is DONT JUMP ANY FUCKING COPS YOU QUEER!


now Mr. King, they already beat the shit out of you once, why try again?

[This message has been edited by SeerLost (edited 11-26-2002).]

if Your going for defence, range and penetration should take seconed place compared to stopping power and convienience of carry.

im not saying that You should go out and get the biggest hand cannon You can find. (that just wouldnt be practicle)but what i am saying is that for general defence, at home or abroad, a handgun should be Your first and best line of defence.(that is if You discount Your legs runnung like hell as a defence mechinism.)

dont buy anything You cant find ready amounts of ammo for. stay away from obscure rounds because more often than not, they are old military surplus rounds and i for one would never trust my life to something that was made in haste 20 or more years ago.

go for whats tried and true if you value your ass. you dont want something thats just gonna poke tiny holes in a target either. a 165 grn 762x54 will carry alot of energy and make a sizable hole but it travles so fast that it passes through the target before the target feels a thing. a 230 grn .45 on the other hand makes even big men painfully aware of what just happened.(vest or not)

the perpose of a defencive weapon should be to buy time to get away from an intruder. You dont need to be able to hit em from 200 meters because at that range, You still have room to get away. forther more, weapons that penetrate searve as a major problem in houses and appartments. i would much prefer something that stopped at my target rather than going through and hitting an innocent victom.

damnit....i feel like im rambling...

anyway, my suggestion would be a 1911 or compatable chambered in .45. ammo is easy to come by and its not to bad to carry (though its uncomfortable to drive with it in a consealed holster.) llama makes the max 1 for about $170 and it will fit factory colt 8rd mags. i bought one at a gun show years ago and i never had a problem with it. i could engage targets out to 50yrds comfortably and it shoots about as straight as my springfield.

outside of that, EAA makes a wittness in .45 for about $250 and i hear its a real shooter.

good luck

[This message has been edited by Count Ugolino (edited 11-21-2002).]

*mentions something vague about derringers* *giggles*

If you want a good revolver for your price range try the Charter Arms Bulldog in .44 caliber. Its light weight, small, and used one can go for $180, that's the price I got mine at. What I don't like about it is that the gun only holds five rounds, but hey, its only one round less.

I have a question about the .50 Desert Eagle. is that thing even practical to use as a handgun? I have never fired one and they seem large and cumbersome with a small round capacity (but they are huge fucking rounds).

nope. they look 5 times bigger in real life than in the movies. and the weigh a fucking ton. basically they are expensive and chambered in rather rediculous calibers.

They are jam-o-matics.

They're basically novelty guns. Just something cool to have in your collection, but impractical for self defense.

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though its uncomfortable to drive with it in a consealed holster

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I've conceal carried plenty of different types of firearms, driving, holster positioned at three or four o'clock and don't find it uncomfortable. The only problem i can see with car carry is lack of quick access with a seatbelt on.

I think there was a recent "bump and rob" here on one of the freeway. Or it was a "red light ambush", one of the two. Victim was not injured however the robbers did brandish firearms.

i dont understand why he wants to shoot for range, if his main purpose is 'self defense'. since when could you legally shoot someone 40 m away ? as in, how can you tell someone 40 m away means to kill you unless they start shooting at you ? even then, you have the opportunity to run, and if you dont take that, you get chucked in jail. its called reasonable force. you cant just shoot someone cos he says 'im gonna kill you'. he has to actually make a move which is severely threatening. in this day and age, you want to avoid shooting someone if you can help it. but dont let that make you hesitate if you have to do it

stop living the rambo life man, get in touch with reality.

and a rifle for 'self defense', ive heard, is a very bad idea. the rounds penetrate through a lot of things, and it wil be your luck when one of your bullets misses/goes through the assailant, and hits an innocent bystander. again, youll go to jail

shotguns with buckshot, and a snubnose revolver are probably the better weapons for home defense. the shorter barrel on the revolver makes it harder to pry from your hands should you get into a struggle.

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a rifle for 'self defense'

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Sure why not? My AR15 5.56N quickly replaced my tweleve gauage as my home defense weapon. It's shorter than my shotgun, holds thirty rounds, ballasticaly is a proven winner, does not overpenatrate, light recoil, etc.

Although i'm sure a Springfield SAR-8 (although a really nice gun, looking at specs of one right now) wouldn't be too good for home defense. 20 rounds of .308 (7.62x51mm) with plenty of penatration :-/

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Originally posted by I Love Poop:
Sure why not? My AR15 5.56N quickly replaced my tweleve gauage as my home defense weapon. It's shorter than my shotgun, holds thirty rounds, ballasticaly is a proven winner, does not overpenatrate, light recoil, etc.

Although i'm sure a Springfield SAR-8 (although a really nice gun, looking at specs of one right now) wouldn't be too good for home defense. 20 rounds of .308 (7.62x51mm) with plenty of penatration :-/

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wouldnt most rifles over penetrate ??

just from what ive heard, rifles arnt too good for home defense. i guess it depends on the specific situation and how your house is. if you live in an apartment, it might be a bad idea. if you live in a farm, its probably a good idea. if you confront them outside the house, its a good idea. if you confront them inside a cramped house, maybe its a bad idea

the muzzle flash can be a problem too. apparantly your eyes might not get used to it and you could be temporarly blinded after firing a few shots.

I went to a gun show today and picked up the weapon. I looked around. I was set on a fairly nice looking pocket pistol in .32ACP-- I think it was a CZ-70, when I ran across a Russian SKS with folding bayonet in pretty nice condition, even better, right next to it was a beautiful CZ-52. I decided that I would have one or the other. I went to an ammo booth a few yards away and compared prices between 7.62x25 and 7.62x39. The 7.62x25 Russian surplus was a little more expensive than the x39. I held each, looked down the sights, and imagined using each for a home defense situation and eventually settled on the CZ-52. The gun cost me just a little under $200 and I spent $30 for 200 rounds of good new ammo. It came with a holster and extra mag. I can't wait to shoot it.

nice buy ! remember, treat it with respect

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg58-e.htm

a bit of info on it, dont dry fire the weapon (fire it without a round in the chamber)