If anyone can give me some good advice, I need info on which kind of shotgun and load is best for home defense

I've got federal 00 buckshot loaded up in my 12guage. Another person that I know uses winchester game load being less velocity, less likelyhood to over penatrate.

me for my home defence i use my mossberg defender useing rock salt loads that will always get them

www.members.shaw.ca/warweed12/totse/Pict0022.JPG

[This message has been edited by warweed12 (edited 07-01-2002).]

The defender is made by Winchester.

Mossberg is good too.

would #4 buck be a good load also? I've seen this used in CQB with good results and nice close range patterns with little over penetration

#4 is for turkey. If it's for home defense, the first two rounds should be small bird shot (#8). Load the back of the mag with the buck shot.

What's "CQB"?

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Originally posted by user X:
#4 is for turkey. If it's for home defense, the first two rounds should be small bird shot (#8). Load the back of the mag with the buck shot.

What's "CQB"?

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Close Quaters Battle

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Originally posted by Joe Boo:
Close Quaters Battle

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How about action, pump or semi?

I think that your best bet would be with a slide-action, or more commonly known as pump.
Any of the major brands would be good. Excellent choices are:
Remington 870
Mossburg 590
Ithaca 37
Winchester 1300

You should have little trouble finding a cheap used one. Then have a qualified gunsmith inspect it and cut the barrel down to 18 or 20 inches. After that, train with it by taking it to the range at least once every two weeks and putting a box of shells through it.

PS. If you're serious about home defense, take a tactical firearms course and learn about protecting your home with other lines of defense, like impenetrable windows and deadbolts. Volumes have been writen on the subject in dozens of gun magazines and books.

Pump is the most reliable.

Hound, the 870 and the Ithica 37 are bird guns, with short magazines. I couldn't recommend them.

The Mossberg & Winchester 1300 "Defender" require no tailoring, and both have larger mags.

For home defense you might wasnt to go with a model with a detachable magazine. Safer for storage really.

I keep my Mossberg 500 12g loaded but not chambered. 5 in the tube and 5 more on a side saddle that attaches to the gun (picked it up for like $7)

Pistol grip is stock on these, I believe the barrel is at 16" (the legal limit in the US) and comes in a blued finish.

I routinely see them going for $250-300.00 new. You could probabaly pick one up used for half that.

One altercation that I made on the shotty which is noteworthy is the damn rack and load switch. You normally would have to shift your pistol grip hand from the grip itself and away from the trigger or trigger guard to depress a button on the side of the gun to allow you to rack the pump after a shot to reload the next in the tube. I simply wedged up a cut and slightly bent paperclip in there and dropped a little super gooopy glue and it functions fine. Eventually i'm going to detail strip it and do a better job.

I have a Mossberg #50665 590 12g kinda link the 500 but its a 9 shot. And had a bayonet lug that takes a m-16 bayonet. I had the ghost ring sites added to mine and I had the barrel ported to reduce kick and help keep it cool. It had the heat shield on it already. You can see one here. http://www.mossberg.com/pcatalog/Specpurp.htm

Hail,

Now I really get to demonstrate my ignorance. You posted this:

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Originally posted by HailHound:
Then have a qualified gunsmith inspect it and cut the barrel down to 18 or 20 inches.

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A. What is the Federal legal limit on the minimum length of a shotgun barrel?

B. Why can't I take a hacksaw a la Randy Weaver and cut off the barrel myself vs a gunsmith?

Nox

because when a gunsmith does it you have an out if its too short, they know where to cut from, and generaly its just alot safer legally.

Cool. I'm looking for shotguns here in Hawaii now. the only problem is that this is a very liberal state, so I may have to wait until I transfer to NC sometime this year. Fuck this state

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Originally posted by warweed12:
me for my home defence i use my mossberg defender useing rock salt loads that will always get them

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Salt rock is a fucking bitch.

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Originally posted by Dark_Magneto:
Salt rock is a fucking bitch.

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True. Been there, had that. Stealing watermelons.

Nox

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Originally posted by Joe Boo:
Cool. I'm looking for shotguns here in Hawaii now. the only problem is that this is a very liberal state, so I may have to wait until I transfer to NC sometime this year. Fuck this state

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Dude buy some hawaiian pot...you might like your state more

Yes until I take a piss test and get a big positive reading and fuck myself for life...

but yeah I know what you mean about the weed here. At the North Shore I saw a Hawaiian roll about the size of a small road cone.

The legal barrel length minimum is 18" and an overall length of at least 26".

I wouldn't bother with rock salt. Maybe I'm cynical or just malevolent, but if someone threatened my family by breaking into my home, I feel that I have the right to seriously hurt them with something worse than sodium. (my 2 cents)

And don't do drugs! Just leave 'um where they're at!

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(6) The term ''short-barreled shotgun'' means a shotgun having one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length and any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification or otherwise) if such a weapon as modified has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.

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U.S. Code : Title 18 : Section 921

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/casecode/uscodes/18/parts/i/chapters/44/sections/section_921.html


I never knew what beyond what length a shotgun becomes short barreled untill now. Only way around this if you desired something shorter would to register it as a AOW - Any Other Weapon a Class III NFA firearm.

I thank all of you for the information. I asked because I am considering a home defense weapon and a shotgun derivative seemed the best option. This shotgun pistol really sounds good.

Another couple questions:

Above what gauge does the gun become uncontrolable with one hand?

Anyone ever had one with a clip?

Nox

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Originally posted by HailHound:


And don't do drugs! Just leave 'um where they're at!

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There is a filipino rap wannabe on an anti smoking commercial here that goes like "leave um were day at" It really makes me want to leave the room to light up (I quit this year finally) I laughed at that post. :O)

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Originally posted by Nox:
This shotgun pistol really sounds good.

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I wouldn't recommend a pistol grip. Shotguns (even IC patterns) are line-of-sight aiming. And, repetitive fire is more dificult in both - control, and cycling the weapon. The butt of the gun has it's uses also.

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Above what gauge does the gun become uncontrolable with one hand?

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410. Shotguns are two-handed weapons.

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Anyone ever had one with a clip?

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Alan mentioned a detachable mag. But then an auto-loader isn't as reliable as a pump. Eight shots not enough?

26 overall, well that fucks my bullpup shotgun idea.

Hey Yo
This message is to let all my peeps know what they should be doing with tobacco products
What's that?

Just leave um where they're at!
Before you pull um out the pack, man
Leave um where they're at!
And if your friends think you're whack yo
Leave um where they're at!
When your body starts to hurting and you don't know what to answer not knowing that you're dying by sticks of lung cancer
Leave um where they're at!
Now smoking is not the cool one
Leave um where they're at!
And if you're smoking you're a fool, son
Smoking is a choice and while you're puffing and you're cruizin', think about the money and the health that you be losin'

You think about buying,
Leave um where they're at!
Little kids who wanna try um
Leave um where they're at!
Three hundred million people dying
Leave um where they're at!
Tobacco company always lying
Leave um where they're at!

These multi-million dollar businesses are run by gray-suit idiots who focus advertisements on our inner-city kids

Don't listen, use your mind, you're in charge of yourself, brought to you by the Hawaii State Department of Health.

Yo, you think they got the message? I don't know, but let's tell them again. Before your breathe starts to stink, leave um where they're at....

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Originally posted by Alan Smithee:
...my bullpup shotgun idea.

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Alan's wet dream

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Originally posted by HailHound:
Hey Yo
This message is to let all my peeps know what they should be doing with tobacco products
What's that?

Just leave um where they're at!
Before you pull um out the pack, man
Leave um where they're at!
And if your friends think you're whack yo
Leave um where they're at!
When your body starts to hurting and you don't know what to answer not knowing that you're dying by sticks of lung cancer
Leave um where they're at!
Now smoking is not the cool one
Leave um where they're at!
And if you're smoking you're a fool, son
Smoking is a choice and while you're puffing and you're cruizin', think about the money and the health that you be losin'

You think about buying,
Leave um where they're at!
Little kids who wanna try um
Leave um where they're at!
Three hundred million people dying
Leave um where they're at!
Tobacco company always lying
Leave um where they're at!

These multi-million dollar businesses are run by gray-suit idiots who focus advertisements on our inner-city kids

Don't listen, use your mind, you're in charge of yourself, brought to you by the Hawaii State Department of Health.

Yo, you think they got the message? I don't know, but let's tell them again. Before your breathe starts to stink, leave um where they're at....

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Damn, you live here too???

Yep, born and raised!

As for bullpup shotguns, y'all should check out the Neostead (http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/sh08-e.htm).
It probably is already illegal in the US, but is damn cool regardless.

The only pump-shotgun with a detachable magazine I know of is the Baikal IZH-81 KM, and those are now sadly banned from importation.

quote:

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Originally posted by HailHound:
Hey Yo
This message is to let all my peeps know what they should be doing with tobacco products....

---

Theres a guy, I don't know if you 've heard about this guy, he's been in the news lately. There's a guy, he's English, I don't think we should hold that against him. But apparently this is his life's dream because he has been going country to country. He has ascended here and is coming up in this country in a couple of weeks, and this is what he wants to do.

He wants to make the warning on the packs, bigger! Yeah, he wants the whole front of the pack to be the warning. Like the problem is we just haven't noticed yet' right? Like he's gonna get his way and all of the sudden smokers around the world are gonna be like "Yeah Bill, I got some cigarettes. HOLY SHIT! THESE THINGS ARE BAD FOR YOU! SHIT I THOUGHT THEY HAD VITAMIN C IN EM' AND STUFF!

It doesn't matter how big the warnings are. You could have cigarettes that were called the warnings. You could have cigarettes that come in a black pack with a skull and a crossbone on the front called "TUMORS" and smokers would be lined up around the block "Well I can't wait to get my hands on these fuckin' things. I bet you get a tumor as soon as you light up!".

It doesn't matter how big the warnings are or how much they cost. Keep raising the prices, we'll break into your houses to get the fucking cigarettes OK? They're a drug, we're addicted, OK?

I love to smoke. I smoke seven thousand packs a day, OK? And I am never fucking quitting! I don't care how many laws they make. What's the law now? You can only smoke in your apartment, under a blanket, with all the lights out? Is that the rule now, huh!? The cops are outside, "We know you have the cigarettes. Come out of the house with the cigarettes above your head.", "You'll never get me copper! I'm never coming out, you hear? I got a cigarette machine right here in my bedroom. Ya! See? Ya!".

Know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna get one of those tracheotomies, so I can smoke two cigarettes at the same time. I'm gonna get nine tracheotomies all the way around my neck. I'll be Tracheotomie Man! "He can smoke a pack at a time! He's Tracheotomie Man!"

I'm looking forward to cancer, man. I want that throat cancer. That's the best kind. You know why? You get that throat cancer, you get that voice box thing. Know what I'm talking about? Sure it's scary, but you can make a lot of money with a voice box. Get a voice box, walking around the streets of Manhattan, (voicebox sound)"You got any spare change?"(/voicebox) "Ahhh!! Here's my whole wallet, get away from me! Ahh!"

Imagine a whole family with voice boxes. That'd be creepy, wouldn't it? They'd be out in that backyard everyday during the summer. (voicebox sound)"Dad, can we go to the beach?", "Yes, get your mother and the dog. We'll leave right now. Sparky, come here.", " Arf Arf Arf Arf Arf Arf Arf"(/voicebox) Aaaaah!!

Or the ultimate irony. A guy with a voice box pulling up to the drive through window at McDonald's. That has to suck, huh? (voicebox)"Can I help you?". "Big Mac and a large order of fries.". "Stop making fun of me.". "I'm not making fun of you.". "I'm getting the manager.". "Get the fucking manager, I don't care."(/voicebox)

I can remember a time in this country when men were proud to get cancer, God dammit! When it was a sign of manhood! John Wayne had cancer twice. Second time, they took out one of his lungs. He said, "Take 'em both! Cuz I don't fuckin' need 'em! I'll grow gills and breathe like a fish!".

Babe Ruth, greatest baseball player to ever play the game. He had a voice box. He was the first American to have a voice box. Yeah! "(voicebox)This is Babe Ruth, the Sultan of Swat, the Bambino, I smoke twenty-five God damn cuban cigars a day. I had meat for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. I fucked eighteen prostitutes a night! 'Course, I'm dead now. I'm up here in Heaven, Lou Gehrig is up here with me,(/voicebox) God love Lou Gehrig. Jesus Christ, poor Lou Gehrig, died of Lou Gehrig's disease, how the hell did he not see that coming? You know. We used to tell him, "Lou, there's a disease with your name all over it, pal!", There ain't no Babe Ruth disease, I'll tell you that much right now. Have a hot dog and a Hummer. Go ahead, it's on me."

I don't know. Personally, I think Billy Martin said it best when he said, "Hey! I can drive!" Because we tried to be nice to you non-smokers, we fucking tried, OK? You wanted your own sections in the restaurants, we gave you that, huh. But that wasn't enough for you. Then you wanted the airplanes, we gave you the whole God damn plane! You happy now? You own the fucking plane! I'd like an explanation about that one folks, because I will guarantee you if the plane is going down, the first announcement you're gonna hear is, "Folks, this is your Captain speaking. Look, uhm, light 'em up, 'cause we're going down, okay. I got a carton of Camels non-filters, I'll see you on the ground. Take it easy." (jumps out with parachute). Actually, it'd be more like this, (voicebox)"This is your Captain speaking. Smoke 'em if ya got 'em. Rawr Rar."(/voicebox)

The filters the best part. That's where they put the heroine. Only us real good smokers know that fucking secret. Yeah, we tried to be nice to you non-smokers. We tried. But you just fucking badger us, you know? You won't leave us alone! You got all your little speeches you're always giving to us. All these little facts that you dig out of a newspaper or pamphlet and you store that little nugget in your little fucking head, and we light up and you spew 'em out at us, don't ya? I love these little facts.

"Well you know. Smoking takes ten years off your life." Well it's the ten worst years, isn't it folks? It's the ones at the end! It's the wheelchair, kidney dialysis, adult diaper fucking years. You can have those years! We don't want 'em, alright!? And I guarantee if I'm still alive, I'll be smoking then. I'll be in my wheelchair, with my adult diapers on and my twenty-five year old non-smoking born again christian son behind me. I'll be going, "Hey! Make sure you wipe this time, I was itching all week for Christ's sake! And get me some more wippets. I'm almost out, you fucking pussy! Come on!"

Because you're always telling us, "You know, ever cigarette takes six minutes off your life. If you quit now you can live an extra ten years. If you quit now, you can live an extra twenty years." Hey, I got two words for you, OK? Jim Fix. Remember Jim Fix? The big famous jogging guy? Jogged fifteen miles a day, did a jogging book, did a jogging video, dropped out of a heart attack when? When he was fucking jogging, that's when! What do you wanna bet it was two smokers who found the body the next morning and went, "Hey! That's Jim Fix, isn't it?" "Wow, what a fucking tragedy. Come on, lets go buy some butts."

It's always the yogurt sprout eating mother fuckers who get run over buy a bus drive by a guy who smokes three and a half packs a day. "Sorry officer, I didn't see him. I was too busy smokin'!"

*Nox passes the hat so he can buy Dark another pack. Stays away from User X*

Nox

Hey! I only get sticky fingers in church.

Another Dennis Leary fan, eh? Cool.

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Another couple questions:

Above what gauge does the gun become uncontrolable with one hand?

Anyone ever had one with a clip?

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I can shoot my 12 guage one handed. But with two hands I can reaccquire my target a lot quicker for the second and subsaquent shots.

I've never had a shotgun that used a magazine, just the tubes. When I think of a shotgun with a magazine I usually think a semi auto instead of pump. Which I haven't owned either.

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Eight shots not enough?

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You can also buy those side saddle ammo carriers that clip or screw onto your shotgun for less than ten dollars. Mine holds a extra five rounds.


[This message has been edited by I Love Poop (edited 07-09-2002).]

benelli M3's are nice. 12 round tube. semi. 12 gauge. http://securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/0400/414.htm

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Originally posted by HailHound:
Another Dennis Leary fan, eh? Cool.

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Dennis Leary is the greatest.

theif of bill hick's act.

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Originally posted by Alan Smithee:
theif of bill hick's act.

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Amen brother...Amen...
Bill Hicks, the last great Texan...and a Dead American Hero...

We miss ya Reverend Billy

any shotgun is good if you cant hit your target with a shotgun i feel sorry for u....

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Originally posted by w00o:
any shotgun is good if you cant hit your target with a shotgun i feel sorry for u....

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Shotguns aren't like what you see in movies where one shot causes mass explosions and such. Rather, they can be capable of taking out a hostage taker with most of his body behind his hostage if you are good enough. And it goes to more then just yanking it back and chambering. What load should you use to prevent over penetration of the target into the room of your sleeping infant in the next room? How small can it be since it's going to be in a VERY cramped space?

There are a few companies that sell "special" ammo for shotguns (ie: Dragon's Breath flame-thrower and bean-bags to name a couple). They sell 12 gauge rounds that use hollow copper balls instead of pellets, these flatten on impact and will not over penetrate (say, your standard in-house sheetrock/gypsum wall). As for pistol grip versus standard shoulder gunstock, you should shoot a 12 gauge with just a pistol grip first before you decide that is for you. Your shoulder absorbs the recoil with much less felt pain (think of it as holding out your hand and letting someone whack you in the palm with a baseball bat). The only way to counter the recoil is to lighten the weight of the load, or use less powder in the charge, or make the gun heavier. As for tube or clip fed and capacity, tube is less likely to stovepipe jam and if you didn't hit him with your first two shots, you are already dead. A 20 gauge is equal to a 12 in the hands of a trained person, less felt recoil and little difference otherwise.

1. A shotgun is a 2 handed weapon, use it as such

2. Any gauge will kill a person when used correctly

3. Loads should be based on the set up of your home, do you have dry wall or plaster walls? Small home or no?

4. Pistol grip stocks are for very special situations, such as very cramped spaces or when you will be doing a lot of hip firing, which is not recommended. A pistol gripped shoulder stock will give you the best control.

You should pick a reliable design, The Rem 870, Win 1300, or Mossberg 500 are all good guns, but are not defense ready out of the box. Guns built on these models do great. However the Mosserberg 500D, the Mossberg 590 and the Winchester 1300D are quite ready out of the box. My 590 came with a heatshield, sling, and bayonet lugs. I had installed ghost ring sites, and a pistol gripped stock. It'll hold 9 shots and is very accurate, though it has a cylinder bore.

If you have drywall use a light game load, a modified choke though may be prefferable. Plaster walls can stand up to heavier loads, such as #4 buck, which is NOT used in Turkey Loads! #4 Shot and #4 buck are not the same thing! Both of which though will kill a person.

A Gunsmith does a better job on nearly all modifications to a gun. You can use a hack saw, but you will have a rough cut that needs to be finished an blued. I have used a pipe cutter with good results, but then I've been doing much of my own gunsmithing for years, except for drilling and tapping (I don't have the proper jigs), I do my own.

Stay away from fantasy ammo or less lethal ammo. None of it has been proven effective. And I doubt that shooting fish hooks at people will stop them. Dragonsbreath is a joke for all a practical purposes, neat to see, it's just a novelty.

Taking a class is about the best thing yo can do, buy from a gun store that has a range so that you may try out the weapons before you buy them. Find a gauge you feel comfy with, you may decide you'd rather have a 20ga, and there is nothing wrong with that. I've hunted with a 20ga for years and can out shoot all my buddies, mind you they all carry 12ga pumps, my favorite gun is a my 20ga NE Topper Model. I can get off well aimed shots just as fast as they can with their trumpet guns. Kinda odd though I've always thought. I paid $100 for that NE used with 2 barrels, I paid over $250 for each of my other shotguns and old Stevens, Ithaca 37 Featherlight, 3 Mossberg 500's, and a Remington 870E (which does hold 6rnds), and time after time, I'm picking up the cheapy. It's a lot lighter to carry around all day, and damn it's fun. But I wouldn't go to war with it.

Accessories you many be interested in are a side saddle shell carrier, ghost ring sights, and sure fire light on the forearm. Some people add a laser, but that's personal prefference for fast shooting I'm much better at instinctive shooting than using sites on a shot gun, even some of my rifles, and definitely handguns. But a light is very useful. Make 911 the first thing you use. It's during your wait you should try to leave the building taking your family with you, if things get complicated during that time, well, that's what you have the gun for.

Whatever you get practice clearing your home often, of course with the weapon unloaded. If you rearrange things, practice twice as much for a few weeks. But then your arrangements should have some tactical thought to them as well. Also keep a cell phone or a cordless phone near your weapon at all times. Make

lead pheasant shot is the best normal ammo to prevent over penetration, while still maintaining a respectable feild of fire capable of killing or incapacitating.

My unclee has a sherif shot gun with a nineball load(not sure of acual name) but it has nine minie slugs.

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Originally posted by Crusader:
A pistol gripped shoulder stock will give you the best control.

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I disagree. A conventional stock allows more flexibility when using the stock itself as a weapon. The pistol grip is too awkward for that particular purpose.

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Crusader:
...#4 buck, which is NOT used in Turkey Loads! #4 Shot and #4 buck are not the same thing!

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I stand corrected! I will read more carefully next time!