How does an HCl salt form? I don't really
understand how the reaction occurs.

I'm sorry that I'm too lazy for a full explanation but this might answer your question:

An acid + a base => a salt + water
eg.
Meth-base + HCL(acid) => Meth-HCL + water

Is this the answer to your question?

Ghost in this case (forming amine salts) you get no water. The acid molecule simply sticks to the basic amine and kinda stays there as it is an energetically favorable position.

[This message has been edited by tryptamine (edited 12-07-2002).]

[This message has been edited by tryptamine (edited 12-07-2002).]

So basically the HCl forms a hydrogen bond
with the N, and it makes a "salt" which isn't
really a salt because no ions are involved?

Yes and no, they do sorta form a weak bond it's not a hydrogen bondbut it is like one. And yes it is a true salt, as it involves an acid and a base, salts need not require ions.

well... dictionary.com says that a salt is
formed by replacing hydrogen in acid with
metal ions or electropositive radicals. But
dictionary.com isn't always right.

Would you call an ester a salt?

dictionary dot com is not a chemist. I would call an ester an ester because it is produced upon reaction of a alcohol with an acid. Nor do esters have the properties of salts. Esters are definitely not salts.

The basic nitrogen of the amine group takes in an nitrogen anion from HCl. In the case of plain ammonia:
NH3 + HCl---->NH4(+) + Cl(-)
Then, they will act like a salt, because the amine base gets changed into a normal positive anion when the hydrogen gets absorbed. Opposites attract, so the anion will react with the cation, forming a salt:
NH4(+) + Cl(-) ----> NH4Cl
The best way I can describe would be like to picture a person drowning in a pool. This person would be the amine. Then someone throws a life preserver to them. This person is the acid. The life preserver is the hydrogen anion, and the person who threw it is the chlorine cation. The drowning person is going to grab that life preserver, and the person who threw it is going to pull then in with a rope. See the relationship?

Mind you madchemist that the problem with using ammonium chloride as an example is that it is an ionic inorganic salt. (BTW you made a typo: hydrogen not nitrogen)

Organic amines are a bit different.

Ahhhhh, I see. Amines are bases so it IS a
neutralization reaction.

Would adding NaOH to an amine HCl form NaCl +
freebase? It seems like the methods of creating
freebase amines differs from drug to drug.

Absolutely correct! Adding NaOH to the amine calt liberates freebase amine (which is then extracted using a non-polar solvent) and NaCl which remains in the water.

would NaHCO3/NH3 be safer to use?

There are no safety issues here as long as you can make the solution basic enough your golden.

I'm assuming MOST amines are nonpolar and
therefore insoluble in water (ephedrine cos
of OH, maybe an exception?) therefore, why
would I need to use a solvent?

Couldn't I just dissolve the HCl in a basic
solution and the freebase just precipitates,
and they'll seperate into layers?

Or will they form a suspension? :/

Yes they will form two layers but the freebase layer is hard to handle efficiently without loss. Plus some freebase gets left in the water layer and must be washed out with a solvent that it dissolves in.

Damn you people are smart, ive never seen so many new people so smart before.

CTR