Experiment with techniques and preperations are going well, as is my massive catch up effort in Organic Chemistry. ( Honestly, an Economics student has NO place in an Organics section of the libary, It has totally made me forget all I knew about my own subject, and I've got exams coming up!)

Question is this:

MDMA forms a natural right handed molucule, and the effects are as normal, but in some cases can form a identical but left handed molucule. This reacts as normal to the protien that MDMA reacts with, but has unknown effects on the millions of other protiens in the body. This left handed molucule has been cited as the main cause of problems that occur from MDMA, like phycosis, heart stopping etc etc.

This is not new, and a lot has been published in the Organic Chemistry journals about it, cos MDMA, along with other drugs, is considered a bit "WACKY", and has public interest, so gets more than it's normal share of space.

So far, I can't find an article about how to remove or identifty with a higher that 75% certainty, the offending left hand mol's. Does anyone have this info, as when the first batch gets cranked out, my friends don't want to end up fucked up.

RipSlider.

( brief histroy of my MDMA saga: Can't take it myself, as have regular drugs tests, but am tagging along as a couple of chemist friend of mine ( 1 master student, 1 phd student, both organic) build pure clean MDMA from scratch. We have the advantage of NMR, IRS machines etc etc, and all is going well so far. Safrole, and all the required precursors have been chemically syinthisised ( sp?) from not watch-listed chems, and not extracted, in order to give a purer product. )

Well all I can say is that synthing your precursors so that you have "purer product" is wasting your time. The purification steps are quite adequate as they stand when extracting from natural oils. Ground up is not the way to go here, instead stand on the branches of a tree.

All MDMA around is a 50/50 racemic mixture of the left and right handed molecules (the chiral carbon being the one bonded to the nitrogen). And it has been shown that it is a combination of the two isomers that gives the full effects. There is no "better" E that can come of separating the isomers. Shulguin did this and experimented with them in his first book PIHKAL.

Right.....

Oh yeah, why haven't your friends hooked it up yet? Not like it's hard. And as far as chiral separation it can be done by standard techniques that a PhD organic chemist should know. Hint: salting with chiral organic acids....

But that would be a waste of their time. Really you guys are being too paranoid about getting "fucked up". And if you have regular drug tests why don't you do it right after you get tested? It'll be out of your system in three days or so.

I'm inclined to call bullshit.

Not that I care, but thank you for your enthusiasm and understanding. Will address your points.

1) Not done yet becuase it's not an all out effort. It's something they and I find very interesting, more than my own subject. Limits are: When we can be arsed. When nothing else is going on. When the friendly security gaurd is on duty.

2) I don't think it's possible to be too paranoid when developing chemicals that you plan to put into your body, and neither do my mates. I have seen too many people at SpeedQueen, Cream, etc etc white out and end up monged, at best, becuase of the shit they put inside them. I think if you have the attitude that " It'll all be alright" when it comes to making this stuff, your an idiot, and a reckless one at that. Not only with your own body, but with anyone else who pops one of your pills.

3) Why sysnisise. Well, first we don't ahev ready access to Safrole the plant, but thats only a minor point. The main thing is that it's being syth'd becuase it can be. Why start " Up in the branchs?" This is a not for profit set up. All that will be produced is enough for maybe 5 doses, say 550mg. After that, the thing gets dropped. The reason it's being done for intrest only.

4)Chiral groups. I take issue with the 50-50 split. In a series of tests done by a canadian group, the mix was found to vary wildly. This is not a good thing. Second: It's only the right hand molucule that gives the high, which has been proved time and time again. I don't care what Shulgiun says, it just does. Also, there's been NO testing of the left hand molucules on any other body protiens. Until this is done, I think it's far safer to stick with right only.

I guess your gonna argue, but you lost all my respect for you when you stated that we're being to paranoid. This just shows stupidity, and stupid people aren't the people I want advice from.

If anyone else is intrested in reading the most useful papers we've found on MDMA, then I'll post them up on a web page.

RipSlider.

I would like to examine the said reports if you wouldnt mind go over the methods employeed and such...


Now I may be wrong however I believe the two MDMA isomers are also known as R and S isomers. SWIM has in his possesion what is claimed to be from a VERY TRUSTED SOURCE (lets leave it at that) a small amount of s-isomer MDMA wich he is planning to injest at some point. From what information I have gathered from users reports the S-isomer to put it in kandy kid terms gives a "smacky" high where the R gives a "speedy". I do realize there has been absolutely no scientific method employeed here however I do feel user reports are worth noteing...

Rip you can be as paranoid as you want and all that, but don't slag me for telling you so. A few reaction byproducts that get throught a recrystallization are not going to be any more harmful than the fumes from pumping petrol at the local fueling station. It's all relative, and I think the "stupid" ones out there are the ones that weigh their risks in an unbalanced fashion. Don't just up and tell one of the most respected chemists on this site that he is stupid.

The people you see at the clubs getting fucked up on their pharmacuticals are doing stuff like PMA etc. or are doing massive overdoses. They aren't doing poorly synthed E.

When you start with safrole, sytnthetic or not after reacting you get an exact 50/50 mix of isomers. This is a simple law of nature. The only way to synth a pure chiral molecule without separating this 50/50 mix is to start with chriral precursors, so nix that idea. You must not talk to your postgrad friends much, if they exsist.

Frey, the myth that some E is smacky or speedy is because of things like K and Meth being added to the pills. It is not in the R,S orientation. All E on the streets today if it is pure MDMA will have the same effect and is 50/50 R,S chirality, it is racemic.

quote:

---

Originally posted by tryptamine:
Don't just up and tell one of the most respected chemists on this site that he is stupid.

---

so modest

LMAO at that last comment hehe...

yes... Im just interested to know is all has to be some difference between the two isomers one would think...

There is a very good paper in Journal of Medical Chemistry vol29,2009-2015(1986)QV 1 J36 by David E. Nichols et.al, It is about the effects and synthesis of S-(+) and R-(-) isomers of MDA and MDMA. Watch that you get the right piperonal,there is some confusion with different manufactures of this compound.

thnx bbell I appreciate that

I mean piperonylacetone is the chemical that manufactures are having trouble with it's nominclature, so be carful when purchasing.

Lets just say that there is nowhere that you can buy piperonylacetone. Unless you have a licence to handle restricted chemicals and you are a legit researcher in a related field and are working on a project that requires it's use and then you would be able to get it shipped to your research facility (university, lab) from someone like sigma.

ie. no one here is going to be able to purchase piperonylacetone ever! at any time!
Cut it out bbell. Thanks for coming out.

As far as being modest, I don't need to be when it comes to this subject. Nor do I care if it makes me look like a dick.

just as Tryptamine said ya can get piperonylacetone from a university laboratory.
Piperonal is used in the perfume industry.
Piperonylacetone is the condensation product of piperonal and acetone. I am not suggesting anyone steal from their place of work,but piperonal is used as an essence.
Phenylacetone is manu. from phenylacetic acid which is also a watched chemical so ya have to manu. this also. From benzyl chloride ya just keep going back to the root compound. But who wants to make speed (makes a lot of people crazy).

quote:

---

Originally posted by tryptamine:

The people you see at the clubs getting fucked up on their pharmacuticals are doing stuff like PMA etc. or are doing massive overdoses. They aren't doing poorly synthed E.

---

He's probably right. I have more faith in PiHKAL than in what these research groups are saying about either the dextrorotatory or levorotatory isomer of MDMA being more dangerous. It's people who are getting adulterated products and taking 5 E pills that are being hurt.

Experimenting has ended.

Asymetric Chiral Synthisis was used to produce a near pure right handed MDMA made entirely from scratch.

Total product produced was 660mg, split into 6 equal doses. 5 very "test driven" and reported to give a very "clean" feeling high, with no reports of feeling wiped out of feeling shitty the morning or days after.

Sixth sample was investigated using various methods, in particular NMR, purely for interest. A chrial spin test found around 0.8% of the product to be left handed, but this was considered well within acceptable limits, as the aim was for a maximum of 2-3%.

Thanks to those who took an interest, I'll post a full selection of journal articles and papers that were of great help, when I have a bit of spare time. No thanks to Trypmanine as the stupid ( and pompously given ) advice that was recieved from himwas of no use, and is obviously not backed up by a sufficient amount of knowledge as to not be considered dangerous.

There is a saying, trypmanine, I believe it goes.. " A little knowledge is a dangerous thing..."

RipSlider

Well rip, I could have written that writeup four years ago when I knew absolutely nothing about chemistry. How about you give us the full methods/reagents used. And no, I still don't believe any of your shit. I trust the analysis that the worlds greatest psychadelic pharmaceutical chemist has given to optically pure MDMA.

Full methods, including yields at each step, yes a full on writeup. I call bullshit even louder when I hear that you used an asymetrical synth. This is pure bullshit!! Any chemist would know that the easiest way to go here is making racemic product (50/50) and separating it.

Why the hell would you waste doing an NMR test (what were the results anyways?) and Describe the "chiral spin" test for me, cause I doubt you know what it is if you didn't look it up (you don't even know the correct term for it.)

trip i like your attitude , I am new to the board and just saying hello,

I had a dream I was in Holland 1 month ago and was met at the airport by a friend who knows a guy that produces MDMA. I had all I wanted in Holland but my problem was in the dream getting it to the USA. Would you of ahd any suggestions in my dream?

I'm inclined to call bullshit as well.

I also have faith in PiHKAL, which basically said what you re written in your own words (talking to rip).

quote:

---

Originally from PiHKAL

with 100 mg of the "R" isomer) There were the slightest of effects noted at about an hour (a couple of paresthetic twinges) and then nothing at all.

(with 160 mg of the "R" isomer) A disturbance of baseline at about forty minutes and this lasts for about another hour. Everything is clear by the third hour.

(with 200 mg of the "R" isomer) A progression from an alert at thirty minutes to a soft and light intoxication that did not persist. This was a modest +, and I was at baseline in another hour.

(with 60 mg of the "S" isomer) The effects began developing in a smooth, friendly way at about a half-hour. My handwriting is OK but I am writing faster than usual. At the one hour point, I am quite certain that I could not drive, time is slowing down a bit, but I am mentally very active. My pupils are considerably dilated. The dropping is evident at two hours, and complete by the third hour. All afternoon I am peaceful and relaxed, but clear and alert, with no trace of physical residue at all. A very successful ++.

(with 100 mg of the "S" isomer) I feel the onset is slower than with the racemate. Physically, I am excited, and my pulse and blood pressure are quite elevated. This does not have the 'fire' of the racemate, nor the rush of the development in getting to the plateau.

(with 120 mg of the "S" isomer) A rapid development, and both writing and typing are impossible before the end of the first hour. Lying down with eyes closed eliminates all effects; the visual process is needed for any awareness of the drug's effects. Some teeth clenching, but no nystagmus. Excellent sleep in the evening.

---

There you have it. You are better off using the racemate.

There is one stereo specific synthesis that I can think off to produce d-MDMA. Maybe fermentation of piperonal to a stereo specific ketone (levo, l-MD-PAC?). That ketone could be reacted with methylamine and reduced with Al/Hg amalgum to an ephedrine like derivative of MDMA (3,4-methylenedioxy-1-OH-methylamphetamine). Reduction methods could be applied similar to regular l-ephedrine, to produce dextroratory MDMA.

However, like tryp said, it is better and cheaper to just synthesize the racemate and separate with optically active acids. You would be able to procure the HCl salts of both isomers.

[This message has been edited by madchemist (edited 07-18-2002).]

Not to be a dork but there is no such thing as a stereospecific ketone. The chiral carbon is the one that the ketone is attached to and it only becomes chiral after it is aminated. An asymetric synthesis would involve attaching a chiral methamphetamine side chain (or precursor) to a benzdioxole sp? group.

Yes I have wonderded this myself. You have to consider all of the literature though, which refers to that ketone as l-PAC (levo-phenylacetylcarbinol). Unless maybe I misunderstood something. But I too wonder, maybe it is the hydroxyl group on the chain that changes the properties.

Also, those methods would be impratical for anything other than research anyway. D-MDMA is inactive by itself.