One of the reasons the U.S. has gun laws as they are is because they figure citizens have the right to over throw a corupt government. All well and good, but you do not use hand guns in a military situation (very rarely). The majority of people in the U.S. don't know shit about gun safety. Art Bell (the talk show host) once he was talking to a caller who kept hearing these foot steps run across his roof. The man would go outside and no one was around. No ladder or any way someone could get on his roof. This kept going on for sometime. Art's reply was he would take out his nine mm and blast away. What an idiot, you never pull the trigger unless you know where the bullet will land. Art has millions of listeners and they hear this crap from someone who was in the Vietnam conflict. The U.S. is full of idiots like this, hand guns serve one purpose and that is to kill human beings. I do not know the numbers but an awful lot of kids get killed playing with dads gun ever year, and thieves steal handguns all the time to use or sell on the blackmarket. Thank God I live in Canada but this country is starting to fuck up on there treatment of handguns.

I think it would be a pain in the ass, but there should be mandatory safety training for every single gun owner. After they get finished give them a certificate. Then if they ever have an accidental discharge and someone gets hurt throw there asses in prison for awhile, no excuses, no loopholes for high priced lawyers to find. There's no excuse for an accidental discharge. Then when it comes to kids I think people should gun proof their kids and not kid proof their guns. When I was growing up I knew not to fuck with my dad's guns or he would beat my ass. If people would just pay attention and pull their heads out of their ass then gun owners wouldn't have such a bad name and alot less people would be dead.

lol Art Bell is going senile last time I heard..

No need to toughen gun control laws, the liberals have already fucked up things enough as it is.

Instead states should toughen reprocussions when a gun is used in a CRIME (forceable felony).

Simular to 10-20-life (bring a gun, display the gun, fire the gun) in commision of a forceable felony.

Even though mandatory sentancing guidlines exist, cons are still realased from their life bid. Happens all the time eh.

Current laws in place...

Background checks, mandatory waiting period (concieled weapons permit holders exempt). Good enough!

Mister Felon or excon sorry no gun for you! Go grab a baseball bat or machette.

A teenager died the other night from a punch to the head after a verbal confratation ensued at a Stake and Shake in Tampa Florida

Gun safety is the owners responsibilty, the state has no responibility to train or teach a individual.

Otherwise funny incidents like this...
http://www.darwinawards.com/stupid/stupid2002-02.html

and this...
http://www.darwinawards.com/stupid/stupid2002-03.html

even this...
http://www.darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin2002-10.html

and most definitely this haha...
http://www.darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin2002-05.html

... wouldn't be as common ... stupid people with guns quickly eliminate themselves from the genepool, good riddens!

Thats a good point on that last one. The fuckin idiots who dont know how to use a gun will sooner or later all end up killing themselves by mistake

I agree with that, but what about the people next door to them? They have a pretty good chance of getting shot if there's an accidental discharge. I say have the mandatory safety training so the "I didn't know any better" excuse can be eliminated.

Alright mandatory safter training also provided should be guerrila tactics training and tactical weapons use, furthermore the right of weapon ownership should be unlimited and concealed carry rights should be implied by the mandatory saftey classes.

Concieled carry & open carry ID card with national reciproicity would be nice for those who pass a background check and safety training, qualification. Even though in my opinion concieled carry gives you sortof a *tactical* advantage, there are times that i'd like to open carry.

I'm glad I live in a shall issue state eh.

Now only another two years and four months and some odd days until the magazine ban (94 crime bill) is due to sunset. Cross your fingers!!

quote:

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Originally posted by rlpinca:
I think it would be a pain in the ass, but there should be mandatory safety training for every single gun owner.

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Safety training.......Yes. Marksmanship traing........No.

There were two local incidents (on the same day, not colocated) where a total of 90 rounds were fired. Result- one person wounded from a ricocheting bullet. Two days later the local NRA petitioned the city to allow the NRA to set up a gun safety/marksmanship course so they could keep kids off the street....duh! That's turning the gang that couldn't shoot straight into steely-eyed killers.

However, Safety.....YES!

Nox

exactly right rlpinca, My dad whooped my ass if he found me touching his guns without permission. And when he let me, he made sure it was unloaded and would clock me upside the head if i didn't keep it pointed in a safe direction, and put my finger on the trigger. Guns should be locked up, and when I was in the military and when I hunted, I was taught the four basic safety rules, Treat every firearm as if it were loaded, Never point it at anything you do not intend to shoot, keep it on safe until you are ready to fire, keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire. another good rule is to never fire unless you are sure of your target. It isn't stupid gun owners the liberals target gun laws for but they have some short-sighted thought that guns are evil and kill people. how the fuck can a gun kill someone with no one on the trigger? a gremlin? maybe if it was dropped but for the most part, only certain Machine Guns fire when dropped, and no civilian has any business owing a machine gun

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Treat every firearm as if it were loaded

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Correction - Treat every firearm as if it were loaded until you have checked, then double checked the condition of a gun.

A unloaded gun is just as safe as any other blunt object that may be laying around your house or apartment, if not SAFER!

This rule has always gotten to me because in a way, shape or form it demonizes firearms. Making them into a unstable piece of weaponry that might go off unexpectingly. Even without warning?

A unloaded firearm is just as safe if not safer than walking around the house with a pair of scissors pointed towards the ground.

Sure there are plenty of *accidents* that happen because some moron thought "the gun was unloaded". But for some reason I can't understand why it is so diffacult for some individuals to determine the condition of a gun beyond any doubt? Perhaps some individuals were never meant to handle or posses a firearm or never understood the machinics of a gun (particulary theirs) in the first place. Perhaps they didn't care to read the operators manual that came with their firearm at the time of purchase?

Once I determine that a firearm is unloaded beyond any doubt i'll point it at myself till i'm blue in the face. Over the years i've gotten the opperuntunity to train with qualified individuals, very professional, using actual real firearms, sometimes with snap caps, other times with blank cartridges (except in really close courters). Proper safety precautions in place prior to training excerise.

Bottom line...

GUNS are safe, PEOPLE can be idiots, I rely on the LAW to determine possible reprocussions of the actions that these IDIOTS take. Maybe i've been making a issue out of nothing, nit picking the exact wording of the rules of safe firearm handling. But people should not be afraid of a unloaded firearm.

I see your point, And yes, After I verify a gun is loaded I would point it at my face until I got bored. But, and I think you would agree, You would not point it at another person unless they checked it also and they okayed it yes?

From a strictly constitutional sense automatic weapons are the ones that civilians have the most buisness owning as they are the kind most useful in modern warfare.

Alan Smithee? have you ever touched an Automatic weapon? Do you know the workings of one besides that they have a high rate of fire if that?

Joe,

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Originally posted by Joe Boo:
Alan Smithee? have you ever touched an Automatic weapon? Do you know the workings of one besides that they have a high rate of fire if that?

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Alan is capable of speaking for himself, which I'm sure he will.

However, as one who not only has touched an automatic weapon, but is also qualified 'Expert' with same, I find your post confusing. Go back and look at the Federalist papers and see why the Second Ammendment was added. And even more important, why was it ammendment two, instead of ammendment ten? The founding fathers felt that gun ownership ranked only behind freedom of speech/religion as an absolute right to be guarenteed to the citizens. This fact gets lost for many.

Nox

quote:

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Originally posted by Alan Smithee:
From a strictly constitutional sense automatic weapons are the ones that civilians have the most buisness owning as they are the kind most useful in modern warfare.

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I have no problem at all with the limitations on full autos that are in place at this time. sure I'd love to be able to go out and go apeshit with one, but then again could you imagine the shit some people would do with them? A person armed with just a 249 SAW could wipe out hundreds of people in no time at all. There would be no way to stop him from doing so. Look at the hollywood BofA robbery awhile back. Those guys had the potential to tear some shit up. I know not everybody would do shit like that, but just look at what people do with semi autos. A few nut cases with legal full autos could be a serious threat to the second ammendment. It's already in trouble as it is.

NOX, I am not speaking against gun ownership, and yes i know why they put firearm ownership second only to freedom of speech, and I too am qualified as an expert with an automatic weapon. four consecutive times. maybe it came out the wrong way, but an assault rifle can kill someone as well as a WWI bolt action rifle. However riddle me this, My ruger 10-22, with the addition of a folding stock black plastic in color, and a compensator, and a pistol grip, is Classified as an assualt weapon. remove them and it is no longer an assualt weapon. It's a bullshit ban that doesn't help at all

well I would need to know which automatic weapon but the basic principle is that the some of the force of the cartridge is redirected through recoil or more commonly gas mechanisms to eject the cartidge and to cock the weapon. If the firing mechanism isn't halted by releasing preasure on the triger the pin will strike the primer causing the primary nitrocellulose/cordite/pyrodex charge to detonate on a low order; releasing several square feet of CO2 from chemical bonds within milliseconds propelling a most commonly copper jacketed lead charge down a barrel with spiraled grooves, rifling. If the weapon functions on a gas blowback system an apature will be present in the barrel that will siphon of a quantity of the gas used in the explosion to eject the shell casing, cock the weapon, and in cocking the weapon load a round into the chamber to be fired. Are you satisfied or would you like me to go into the mechanics of a recoil ejection system?

No, my apologies. I mis-understood your earlier post

What i'm saying is that the modern assualt weapon (with the exception of a few) are as accurate, or better then, the factory built rifle right from the gun shop. In modern war the assualt weapon is useful, but not very often in a combat situation will you see a soldier empty his magazine unless panicked or anything related like that. and Some Shooters have been known to fire a lever or bolt action faster then a semi auto

perhaps, however the doctrine of fire power which has persisted since world war two has been that of volume of fire. That is to say, spit out enough lead to make the force opposing yours keep their heads down long enough for part of your force to manuver to a more advantagous position against the opposing force, get them in a cross fire, and liquidate them. In such situation the rate of fire is the most effective force multiplier.

True, But always with well-aimed shots.

Not necessarily, you don't aim at a person you aim at a location to make the other people keep their heads down and then manuver against it. you fire aimed shots when you have a superior position to do it from.

Is the AK-74 more accurate then previous AK models? I can't find any solid info online anywhere

Try doing a search for ballastic performance. Given the AK47 is generally chambered in the 7.62X39MM whereas the AK74 is chambered in the 5.56NATO round (I believe). I sincerely doubt accuracy between the various models has a lot to do with the firearm itself (unless its been beat to hell, obvious reasons, etc).

From what I recall the 5.56NATO has a flatter trajectory as opposed to the 7.62X39MM round.

I've fired both rounds and still perfer the 5.56 (.223)

I've never gotten the oppertunity to fire a select fire (full auto) AK or firearm in the 7.62X39MM round before. Although I can drop really tight groups with my bushmaster 5.56 in full auto fire.

I looked it up and saw that it is chambered for 5.45 mm supposedly because the Soviets thought that if the 5.56 performed better then the 7.62 then a smaller round for theirs is better. I've read that it wasn't very accurate, due to variations in loading the propellent in the cases. Apparently they were forced to manufacture this round and quickly put it into production that sometimes they would overfill and underfill the cartriges. Though that's only a rumor that one of their soldiers told me

Kalashnikov fought tooth and nail agianst them changing the round to a 5.45. One of the nasty little advantages of the 5.45 is that it turns up in flesh causing hydrolic shock.

[This message has been edited by Alan Smithee (edited 05-30-2002).]

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hydrolic shock

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Ouchy! Thats never a good thing

Yup compression wave travels trough the area rupturing organ tissue, Afganis called the 5.45 tainted or poison bullets because even if the bullet hit in a non vital area of the trunk it was still likely to kill the person.

Considering the average velocity of that type of round is about what... 2,200+ fps ?? hehe ouch.

I've heard conflicting analysis about our round, for example we use the Nato ball 5.56 which has a tungsten carbide tip. Great penetrator but shitty because it supposedly goes right through. I personally think this is bullshit. When I was in infantry school a good friend of mine bled to death after 8 hours after being stitched in the hip with a M249. 5 rounds went into his left hip and out his right shoulder after tumbling around inside him. the rounds only traveled about 50 ft to him. so I think our NATO ball would fuck up someone. and of course it all matters where you hit

that is the trade off though, penetration versus internal damage. the best round really is this hard rubber that penetrates soft tissue and mushrooms but if its stopped by armor it has a flechette that it transfers its energy to so it can penetrate. a nasty fucking round. but back to the shot man Provided he wouldn't have bled out he probably would have died of organ failure with one round of 545 in the abdomen or inner shoulder. Essentialy its like being depth charged inside your body.

Oh wow! Do you have a name for that type of round or who manufacters it? I once was reading through some balastic wounding charts, a round creates two cavaites, a temporary cavity and a permanate cavity. The 5.56NATO created a big permanate cavity, ouch!

It's available through shotgun news magazine i think. i have seen advertisments in there for it

Shotgun news magazine has everything short of a small tactical nuclear device.

yeah i got a reat deal on a 8 mm German Mauser and all the parts that came with it. I'm trying to find a 1903 Springfield with no luck though

did everyone get off topic on this or what?
could you please stick to original statement.

Well we are talking about how great it is to own firearms in the land of the free

quote:

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Originally posted by Joe Boo:
I've heard conflicting analysis about our round, for example we use the Nato ball 5.56 which has a tungsten carbide tip.

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Nope, it's just a fmj. Alot of rumors get started about those rounds though.

quote:

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Well we are talking about how great it is to own firearms in the land of the free

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Amen.. but we need to put more emphasis on securing these freedoms for our children and our children's children.

After all take into consideration the million moron march, these people would be extremely happy to see every firearm stripped from the ordinary citizen.

Fortunitely I live in a state that doesn't require too much policing of the politicians and demanding the reinstitution of our second ammendment rights. Take kalifornia for example and in new jeresey it is illegal to carry hollow point ammunition, lol.

We have to stay on top of things, for they can get out of hand in a instant. Incidents like columbun put the spot light on hollywood figures who called for unilateral firearm seizure from law aibiding citzens.

Getting involved in politics, voting in officals starting at the local level who are freedom minded and gun friendly is for starters and something we can all do. Regardless of what you think your vote does matter!

One small victory would be the sunset of the 1994 Crime Bill (product of the klinton era) which is set for 09/04. This limits the magazine capacity to any post 94 firearm to ten rounds.

Do you think the average gang banger stopped for a second to think, "My magazine holds a capacity greater than ten rounds and has a date code of 1996 thereby i'm in federal violation of..." before doing a drive by shooting?

rp are you talking about the Nato Ball which has a green tip or Regular Ball which has no colored tip?

I'm with you on that on Poop. I read the Representives and Senators speeches in favor of the Assualt weapons ban. If you want a real laugh you can look it up (I watched it on C-Span) And got great laughs for mall the bullshit they were saying.

quote:

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Originally posted by I Love Poop:
Shotgun news magazine has everything short of a small tactical nuclear device.

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[Homer Simpson voice] but I want a tactical nuclear device, I don't want to kill anyone, just keep the nuclear option open.[/Homer Simpson voice]

You americans sure think different than us canucks.Hand guns are for one use only that is to kill humans at close range. Rifles are what you need in a war.I think americans are crazy because of their love of handguns. I owned a colt M1911 years ago (illegal possesion). When I showed it to someone their eyes would bug out and they could not wait to touch it, all very juvenile.Very basic human thinking. Even my boss (a millioniare) started to twirl it on one finger, no checking if loaded safety on, besides the point twirling a gun is a definate no-no. The Canadian goverement gave him a handgun liscence a few months later.All I am trying to say is there is no need for the possesion of handgus.

bbell,

I find your comments interesting. Have you ever been the victim of a crime? Not petty malicious mischief, a real crime?

I have found that people's attitudes towards gun ownership take a 180 degree turn when they become victims.

Nox

bbell...

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You americans sure think different than us canucks.

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If your post is in representation of the average canadian then your country is in trouble.

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All I am trying to say is there is no need for the possesion of handgus.

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#1 I could begin by nitpicking your spelling, for shit sakes you cannot even spell handgun correctly!

#2 You admitted to us that you owned a handgun illegally.

That tells me you are not a responsible firearm owner and you have no respect for the law.

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When I showed it to someone their eyes would bug out and they could not wait to touch it, all very juvenile.

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Choose better friends. "guns go bang, cool man haha."

quote:

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touch it, all very juvenile.Very basic human thinking. Even my boss (a millioniare) started to twirl it on one finger, no checking if loaded safety on

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You don't allow someone to "twirl" your handgun. Not only this is fuckin stupid, even if it was unloaded, it could be dropped and ruin the finish.

It is your gun, your responsiblity. You are obviously too immature and not ready for firearms so pawn them off and go by a X-BOX or a PS2.

CORRECTION - There is no need for you to possess a handgun.

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Hand guns are for one use only that is to kill humans at close range.

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I carry a hand gun in a professional manner on a daily basis. Hand guns are generally a SELF DEFENSIVE TOOL.

Assult riffles are a offensive weapon.

The military spent a lot of time and money contracting HK, COLT, etc to build a "offensive handgun". You don't commonly see these guns holstered on a LEO or CIVILIAN.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bbell:


>>Hand guns are for one use only that is to kill humans at close range.<<

Many Gun owners hunt with handguns. I have. Where I grew up in West Virginia I would carry a 22 cal handgun to use on cottonmouth snakes that I would come across. As for the killing of humans at close range, it is, You use A rifle to kill at long range.


>>Rifles are what you need in a war.<<

What war is in our country? We use rifles for hunting and other forms of recreation.
And Self Defense
The same goes with any firearm here unless it's used for criminal purposes.

>>I think americans are crazy because of their love of handguns.<<

Everyone thinks Americans are crazy for a number of other reasons


>>All I am trying to say is there is no need for the possesion of handgus.<<

Story, My uncle in his hometown was at a gunshop when a man tried to rob the owner at the business. Like in the movie Pulp Fiction when the two robbers came up with the idea of robbing the resturant because you never hear of a resturant being robbed. He must have thought the same about a gunshop. Unfortunatly, As we say in the Marines, Good Inititative, bad judgement, because The Gun owner carried a handgun on his person, and had a shotgun behind the counter, and all 8 customers were armed. The Robber was shot dead, which probably saved my Uncle's state money by not incarcerating the dumbass, and made my Uncle a firm believer in Gun ownership and Concealed carry. 6 months later, a man tried to rob my uncle at an ATM machine with a homemade shank. Imagine the robbers surprise when he found a 4-inch 357 Magnum at his forehead. My uncle called the fuzz and turned the moron in. It turned out that the handgun my uncle carried saved his life, The robber was going to walk him back into an alley and stab him. The moral of the story is, If people carry firearms, it's called Crime deterrence, and would save millions of dollars a year in taxpayers money.

Would in not be nice to live in a country where nobody has handguns,like Canada,Slavic nations Sweden etc. Thieves don't have them (very rarely). A thief breaks into your house thinking you probably have a handgun so he brings his own. A real nice situation. And no I do not follow my nations laws to a "T".Possesion of pot against the law! A bunch of crap, even though I do not smoke my self. Your x prez said he smoked but did not inhale. Throw him in jail. As for the possesion of the handgun i had, i took it from a couple of kids playing with it. And handing someone an unloaded gun no rules broken there. Besides a model 1911 colt is a very poor weapon in my books. I still have not heard a good reason for handgun ownership. And yes my spelling stinks,so what I am not perfect.

shooting snakes with a 22 handgun,shooting at the ground close range,any rocks around? A knife would not do. This is all coming from a Canadian who has let off about 20 rounds in his 50 years.

It would also be nice to live in a world where magical unicorns bring me bottles of fine irish whiskey at my slightest whim and gysers of stew erupt thrice daily, but eventually we have to leave big rockcandy mountain and step into the real world. Brittan has many handgun armed thugs despite its ban on the instrument. Im sure you'd like it much better if the theif breaking into your house simply used a kitchen knife to threaten you into submission while having his way with your wife, but myself, I think I'll stick to fighting.

Also, a browning model 1911 Is a fine pistol, I belive it you the weak link in the equation. Granted it doesn't have the finest balance it has a truley impresive rate of stopping power.

[This message has been edited by Alan Smithee (edited 06-05-2002).]

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Hand guns are for one use only that is to kill humans at close range.

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My handgun (which is holstered on my waist as i'm posting this) is carried for lawful self defense purposes only. If you could figure out a way for me to CCW my M4 Carbine then i'd switch off

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Would in not be nice to live in a country where nobody has handguns

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You mean *where no lawabiding citizen owns a handgun* leaving them to fear the criminal element that doesn't give a shit about the law in the first place. Who is more likely to commit a crime with a firearm.

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A thief breaks into your house thinking you probably have a handgun so he brings his own.

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If a theif breaks into your home and is aware it is occupied it usually becomes a home invasion. In which case they are generally armed and have murdered and brutually beaten it's occupants.

Better to be able to defend your life and the lives of your loved ones with your semiautomatic pistol on your nightstand. Because sometimes your louiesville slugger just won't do.

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As for the possesion of the handgun i had, i took it from a couple of kids playing with it.

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I think you are lying but you still had possession of a handgun illegally. Regardless of you took it off the hands of a couple kids (likely story lol) you would still be guilty. Instead of possessing it you should have turned it over to local police. Because not only you were not legal to possess you could have been in possession of stolden properity.

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Besides a model 1911 colt is a very poor weapon in my books.

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lol your opinion doesn't matter due to your lack of firearm knowledge.

The model 1911 colt has a place in history, was used in many wars and the .45ACP is a proven one shot stopper.

Those guns demand high prices, are widely used in competetive shooting till this day.

There are countless manufacters that have copied off the 1911 colt.

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I still have not heard a good reason for handgun ownership.

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Well considering your country makes it more diffacult for a civilian to purchase a handgun be happy. Vote to abolish handgun ownership in canada for all I care. I don't live there, I live in the land of the free (well considerably free).

I've said many times, I carry a handgun in a professional manner for lawful self defense purposes.

If my adversary has a weapon then that is why I have my handgun.

Just a few weeks ago I was reading about a mugging that took place in NJ. Some elderly lady was approached while she was withdrawing money from the ATM. Something distracted the robber and the elderly lady tried to run, she gained some distance however the robber eventually caught up to her and stabbed her, took her purse and left her to bleed to death. If she would have had a handgun in her purse she could still be alive today.

This still fuckin doesn't make sense to me...grrr...

YOU LIVE IN CANADA! WHAT THE FUCK DOES USA GUN LAWS HAVE TO DO WITH YOU?!?

The topic DOES NOT read "Canada stupid gun laws".

quote:

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Originally posted by bbell:
Would in not be nice to live in a country where nobody has handguns,like Canada,Slavic nations Sweden etc. Thieves don't have them (very rarely).

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Last night I was watching a show that had police videos on it, and They had a special of cops in the U.K. They aren't armed. They must have to carry their balls around in a wheel barrow, because in every single video they had on there the criminal was. Face it, once guns are banned then criminals will still get them. In America we have a saying, "When Guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns".

quote:

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Originally posted by bbell:
shooting snakes with a 22 handgun,shooting at the ground close range,any rocks around? A knife would not do. This is all coming from a Canadian who has let off about 20 rounds in his 50 years.

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Yes, Rocks around, with .22 cal shotshells. My brother blasted me with this load at 16 feet and it didn't break any skin just hurt like a bitch. Also, Have you ever been bitten by a snake? A venomous one? Yes a knife would not do