Realistically speaking, moneywise as well. If you had to put together an arsenal what would you include and why?

If I had to do it again mine would consist of Four weapons.

1. Long Range Rifle. This gun would be a bolt gun in a heavy caliber, .308 or over, prefferably .338Laupa. It would be customized for long range shooting only, over 400yds. This would mean a strong action, match grade free floating barrel, a bipod, a fire lapped barrel with a recessed muzzle and fluted. Also atop it would set a good scope with a mil-dot reticle.

2. An assault weapon. An intermediate powered weapon that utilizes high capacity magazines and is relatively short. Bayonet optional, flash hider, and muzzle brake equipped. Semi-auto of course and open sites. Zero would be 200yds. Caliber options-.30 Carbine, 7.62x39mm, .223, 5.5mm Russian, .22Mag (minimum), 5mm Rem, .30-30.

3. A shotgun. This gun would be my work horse. So my specs would be a polychoke, 9shot 2.75" capacity, 3" chamber, 12ga, pump action, ghost ring sites, pistol grip stock, all synthetic, a side saddle, heat sheild, and a 24" barrel max.

4. A pistol. Semiauto, hi cap, adjustable tritium dot sites, full sized. Caliber options:.45ACP, .40S&W, .400Corbon, .357Sig, .38Super, 10mm, 7.62x25mm.

This would be my basic arsenal for a static position. In a mobile situation I'd have to go with the Assault weapon and a pistol. If I could hack it, a single shot cut down 20ga would be the ticket for me.

The only thing I don't have is a great long range rifle. I've been working on a Mauser action and .308 barrel that fits the action. It's been an ongoing project that I've been picking up and putting down. What I would like to do is this: Install a match grade trigger, drill and tap for a Weaver Base, turn the bolt down and use Burris Posi-Lock rings to mount a Leupold Tactical Scope. Install this to a pillar bedded synthetic stock and free float the barrel. All together a $800 project.

I wish i knew more about guns. Then I could answer this really cool question. My knowledge of guns (due to my lack of interaction with them) is limited to those found in video games that ive played and movies ive seen.
But I would probably go with some sort of semiautomatic pistol, a submachine gun, and a revolver, in case the semiautomatic jammed. Being that I am fascinated by stealth, i would put silencers on all of them, and some sort of short sword/long knife just for style.. ninja like... i cant get enough of ninja stuff...

Hand to hand:Coup Baton

Short Range: .357 magnum (jhp of course)

Long Range: M82A1A .50 Caliber Special Application Scoped Rifle with a decent LRF

Combat shotgun.



[This message has been edited by Bar room hero (edited 08-05-2000).]

oh my god... mausers are fuckin accurate!!

I think that a shotgun under the barrel would be enough for me, The Master Key, And a grenade luancher seems needed for me, but when it comes to practical uses for it, im not so sure, maybe that under the barrel. I've always dreamed of a high caliber penetration sniper rifle, maybe a .50 Barret, and a H&K Mp5 w/ silencer, but now im just fantisizing. A ghille suit would definantly be in my arsenal and maybe a morter. Ahhhh, Why do I have these urges for firepower.

he said realistic... hell i would get an avenger minigun and an infrared missile salvo...

If I made enough money I'd have lots more neat guns. A person can buy machine guns with the proper paper work and the bucks. An MP5 in good shape will run over $5K easily. My fantasy arsenal would be:
A select fire L1A1, 20mm Lahti, .50 SR-1 by Armalite, MP5SD, Nat'l Match M1, and a Vulcan 20mm complete with depleted uranium tipped ammo. The latter being a little overboard.

oh my god... depleted uranium??? thats like 2k per round or some other real sick amount.

Okay. I don't know that much about guns, but here goes.

1) PSG1 for sniping
2) HK VP90 for almost everything else
3) HK MP5/A for combat
4) One of those funky Crotch-Guns for fun

I don't think a 9mm subgun would be enough for general combat. Subguns have a special place for close range confrontation, but overall aren't the wisest of choices.

A subgun is a crotch gun?

No an MP-5 is a 9mm submachine gun. I have no idea what those crotch guns are, I've only seen them in a Quentin Tarantino movie.

Oh, I just saw the bit where it says I have to factor price into it. Okay, new list.

Firstly, I'd make an assortment of shivs and coches, maybe even a zip gun for throw-away situations. Then I'd purchase either a ninja sword and sharpen it, or a machete and modify it into something more suited for stabbing than hacking.

Then I'd buy a decent pistol, maybe a Glock .40, or Browning HP. Definatley w/ a silencer and maybe a flare suppressant.

Double-Barrelled sawn off, for most situations, just hide it in my trenchcoat.

Sniping rifle w/ scope. Probably a bolt-action chunky one, 308. or something along the lines of that.

And then a combat weapon, something fast and concealable, like a Mac-10 macine-pistol or maybe one of those old Schneisser nazi guns.

For artillary, a couple grenades and a flash bang, and I'd obtain a couple of mortars and put delays on them, so I could set them up to blow a house, then charge from the opposite direction after they explode.

[This message has been edited by Trippy_McGee (edited 08-07-2000).]

Taking price deeply in to consideration.

Smith & Wesson .38 special. low rate of misfire good stoping power

pump action shotgun. Good stoping power, can be modified to act as a grenade launcher.

Springfeild bolt action model 1903 with night vision and optic scopes. Durrible and accurate. This is probably the most expensive thing i've mentioned so far.

and lastly a bush master folding knife with a five inch blade. Can be opened with a flick of the wrist.


[This message has been edited by Alan Smithee (edited 08-07-2000).]

Para-Ordinance P-14
.45 ACP, Hollow Point Ammunition, 5" Barrel

Mossberg 500
12 Gauge, Flechette Shells, Short Barrel, Extended Magazine (7+1), Riot grip

Bavarian SA-93 (AK-47 rip off)
7.62x39, FMJ

Czech vz28
8mm Mauser, FMJ (teflon would be nice), bayonet lug

hehehe... seems to me like a lot of you guys know guns only from tv and movies. While mp5s are wishes came true of PDs, I wouldn't choose these unless in a stealth needed, urban environment. I d prefer to go for a G-36 from HK (am a big HK fan...) or a FNP-90 from Fabrique Nationale (if anyone interested it's that bad mother in Goldeneye 64 known as the srp-90, probably for trademark purposes. It became public around christmas time this year). Next id have a mossberg security with nine rounds loaded with slugs. For a pistol id go for a full equip mark 23 from HK (also known as soccom). Finnaly id get me some baseball bat with some rusty nails in it : I mean, its more fun to beat someone with a bat than to shoot at him dont you think ? (flame throwers would be nice...)

Seth

AKS-74U shorty assault rifle.
PKSMN gen.purp. machine gun.
http://www.aviapress.com/book/other/book038.htm

[This message has been edited by sckbch (edited 08-07-2000).]

An MP5 is much easier for a citizen to get a hold of than an FNP90. A citizen that is not a class 3 dealer cannot legally own a P90. But you are right, there is a lot of Hollywood education here on guns.

Poor choices I've seen: Sawed off shotgun for most situations, a machine pistol for a combat weapon, silenced weapons out the wazoo, a flashhider for pistol, ninja sword, calling grenades artillery pieces, using flechette for main shotgun round, bayonet lug(?).

1. Shotguns are not the best choice for general carry in combat. Though they are very versatile weapons they aren't a good gun if you don't know what is going to happen. Example, combat breaks out and you are fired on from a range of 250yds persay. A shotgun will do you know good, where as an assault rifle or battle rifle will do, even a bolt gun would be better.

2. Pistols for main combat. If you are in combat in pistol range, consider yourself fucked because you have either been very surprised or have failed to destroy the enemy from a safer distance. Tis better to run like hell, take cover, fire and repeat, till the enemy is dead or gets tired of chasing you. Machine pistols have a very high cyclic rate. This means less than 25% of the ammo fired will hit an intended target if you are competently trained. A MAC has a rate of 900-1200rpm, expect to need to change the mag everytime you fire a burst. 32rnds per mag, 1 mag per burst=alot of ammo in no time at all. Can you carry that much ammo and change a mag that fast? I doubt it.

3. Silencers only make a weapon quieter and are useless without proper deployment. Cover noises are required for proper use. Noises like a passing car, a ringing phone, etc. Something louder than the gun itself.
Silencers require heavy maintenance, they must be clean to work properly, and add some length to most guns.

4. A flash hider on a pistol. Again if you are in pistol range in combat a flash hider will do nothing for you. I'd say in shotgun range a flash hider will do nothing for you.

5. Never bring a knife to a gun fight, nough said.

6. A grenade is artillery? Since when?

7. Flechette over all suck ass. I've handloaded thousands of them. They are good for penetrating heavy naturaly cover at close range, 25yds or less. They are too light to do any real damage much further and the wound cavities they leave are horrible. Small wound cavities mean less bleeding, less bleeding means better chance of living. Might as well give the enemy acupuncture treatments while you are at it.

8. Bayonet lug? I'm not sure what you mean. Do you plan to mount a bayonet or do you just want a lug on the stock? In WW2 the most popular job of the bayonet was opening C-Rations and digging, though it did help morale a bit. If things got to bayonet range, most ran, and most that ran lived.

If any of you really plan to build an arsenal, at least make it realistic and practical. I'd rather be armed with my single shot 20ga in most cases than any machine pistol.

Also modern autos are in fact more reliable than revolvers.

I don't mean to flame anyone, but damn stop learning from movies. Pickup Guns Magazine, Guns and Ammo, or something. Join a shooting club that has matches such as ISPCA, etc.

Real, I totally agree. Peoples should know what there talkin' about. And not what they learn from hollywood.

A) I know firearms from having a family with extensive Military and Law Enforcement background, and spending time at the range. I also to try to pick up the gun mags when when they seem to have something interesting to say, but honestly half the time I think they are so biased I can't take 'em for much until I can try something myself. I never claimed to be an expert, only an enthusiast.

B) I also believe that there are few situations where subguns could not be outperformed by another firearm.

C) The Real, you don't seem to be considering Urban Indoor combat situations as part of your assesment at all.

D) In regards to Flechette, the Shotgun in my opinion is the main indoor combat weapon so the limited range is of no concern. I figured the same aerodynamics that make it more effective in brush would make it more effective against light armor such as military flak vests(not for stopping bullets people!) at close range as well. Honestly I don't know what wound trauma from a flechette looks like, but I assumed a belly full would take the fight out of most soldiers. Realistic applications, remember?

E) My vz28 has a bayonet lug on it. I don't have a bayonet for it currently because I haven't been going to the shows recently although I do have my eye out for one. The opened cans with them because they had Uncle Sam's supply lines to keep them in ammunition. I do not have that luxury, and I if for some unusual reason I was without any shells for any of my arms, well my Mauser is the biggest, gnarliest, rifle I've got and sometimes there's no where to run.

Sure I'm taking in urban combat. It's obvious that you don't know what wound ballistics with flechette or other shotgun ammo is like. Flechette are great for what they were built for, but for everything else they suck. Hell, originally flechette were never designed for use in a shotgun. Flechette are placed in bombs, mines, artillery, and rockets. They were intended to be fired in high volume, at high speeds, at short range. Out of a shotgun you can only achieve the close range. Volume is missing and I've never clocked flechette at over 2000fps, they were intended to go 4000fps+. I also highly doubt that flechette fired from a shotgun will penetrate any type of armor with consistency. I've heard they will penetrate a level 2 vest, I've never seen them fully penetrate a 2x4. There are many other better loads for a shotgun in urban combat. There is #4 buck which will not penetrate too another room, there is also tactical buckshot in OO that also will not penetrate to another room. If you handload, then a whole new world is open to you. You can mix different types of shot and tailor the velocites. But some people get real dumb ideas like loading fishhooks or tacks. Even worse some people buy these joke rounds as avaliable from Firequest.

The shotgun has been used in combat more successfully as a support weapon. A better weapon for urban combat would be a carbine or an assault rifle. I think your selection is good, much better than most I've seen on this board. Just that Flechette are a very specialized round, meaning they cannot handle a generalized task. Weight when considering ammo is very important, as it is one of the factors that determine KE. Another important factor is energy dumping as well, this is the ability of a bullet to transfer all it's energy to the target. To do this the bullet must stop within the body. Flechette at close range, not having to penetrate any cover, will likely not stop. And even if they do stop, they have little energy to transfer. Flechette rounds also suffer from ineffecient powder burning. With no weight to increase pressure in the shell at time of combustion, the powder doesn't burn as it should, weakening velocities. I have overcome this in one way. I buffer flechette with lead shot, the smaller the better. The down fall, it decreases the amount of flechette you can fit into a shell by over half.

As far as the bayonet goes, thanks for clearing that up. And I do agree that though a bayonet is handy and can be useful. The bayonet is only a very last ditch effort.

Please tell me the few situations where a subgun comes out winner. I can think of several where it would be one of the last guns I would want. They eat ammo up fast, max effective range is just a little bit further than a pistol in combat. If you are taking fire from a range of say over 100yds, might as well run if you armed with a subgun, they weren't meant for that. Subguns were designed with close quarters combat in mind. Fast action, high intensity, close range, short lived confrontations. In that arena they excel probably over any other weapon. Take them out of that environment and you have something a little better than throwing rocks. Situations that subguns excel:Room clearing, house to house combat they are formidable (but are better as support). That's it. In general combat they are a poor choice. Coming from a police background I would expect you to know that. Lood at Swat for example. The guys entering the doors are armed with either a handgun, shotgun, or subgun. Subguns usually take the lead, shotguns the rear, pistols in the mid and sometimes up front. This is a setup foor room clearing. Almost always are there several people armed with M-16 variants, Mini 14's, or Mini 30's close by. Remember the LA shoot out in which the bandits were wearing armor? Pistol caliber ammo could not down them, it was a rifle that finally took them out, a much better choice in that scenario. Even in general urban combat the Subgun isn't the best choice. Have you looked at how bullets will penetrate cover commonly found in an urban scenario? Cars, dumpsters, signs, etc. Unless you have AP and are close range pistol calibers are pretty much useless till the bad guy makes a mistake or gets unlucky. Where as an assault rifle will have much less difficulty, a shotgun would even to better, but not better than a .223 or 7.62x39mm.

My experience comes from growing up in a Marine Corp family. I've been shooting since I was 6yrs old and have been an enthusiast since then. I read mags whether they catch my eye or not. I also know may combat veterans and some policemen. I have taken pistol, shotgun, and carbine training classes along side of policemen and was on a division of the USMC shooting team. I've been reloading for 6yrs now and still learning. I don't claim to be an expert, I've never been in what I'd call actual combat. I've shot about every type of full auto there is (by category not my model). MP5's, MAC-10, M16A1, M16A2, M-60, M-249, and an RPK. I've fired modified SKS's, Ruger 10/22's, Ruger MkII, an M2 Carbine (done by a SOP 2 dealer, it was legal). I've fired USMC Nat'l Match target and sniping rifles (M1's, M-14, M40A1, M1).
I too spend a lot of time at the range, the books, and at the bench reloading.

I've been to simulated combat zones and watched soldiers using real life tactics as they practice. I've watched anti-terrorist units practice as well as entry teams. I've read works by Rex Applegate, Jeff Cooper, Masaad Ayoob, et...al. I've also studied FBI studies on cadaver and ballistic gelatin testing.

But I think greater info comes from people who have been in combat, been shot at, returned fire, killed an enemy, etc. Those that don't mind talking about it still remember things as they saw it when it happened. What happened, how they saw it, mentality, where they were shot, where the shot the bad guy, number of hits it took, etc. The best data comes from real time experience, not in a lab. Most of what I have heard comes from Vietnam, Persian Gulf, Panama, and some special forces missions from Army Rangers and Marine Recon.

Someday I hope to be called an expert in the field, though I hope I can earn that title without engaging in combat.

Real, i may be wrong but I think that flechette were invented during the Vietnam era to be shot from an M-79.

Actually, I'll just nuke all of us. Problem solved. Big kaboom, a lot of radiation, no arsenal needed. See you all in christian hell. There's your fuckin shroom like apparition, slowly rising up there close to midwest.

you actually are. flechette date back to world war one. they were used by the french as "bombs". the avaitor would just drop these things upon infantry soldiers. it was real nasty

Flechette's have been around for ages as funny little metal thingy's that you put into people, hell they used to load caltrops into catapults along with other garbage and there were always shuriken in the east before that. In regards to the Flechette shotgun shell, I believe that the US Military started putting them in circulation towards the end of the Vietnam Police action if not just after it, as the dense vegetation of jungle warfare proved detrimental to the effectiveness of of standard shot.

REAL: You seem argumentative on the subguns. I was agreeing with you, perhaps my wording was a little confusing. I think a shotgun is a superior general purpose Urban Combat weapon if you stock a variety of shells. The few situations I can think of where the subgun is ideal are the ones you've already mentioned. Room sweeping where it's close quarters and penetration is an issue (almost always). Particularly if you're not working alone (again, usually. If I'm expecting this kind of combat, I'm not trying to go in alone). So basicly apartments, storm drains maybe, and airplanes.
As far as the shlls, well I don't think I've said anything about other shells really so how do you know what I've studied about them? I've spent my fair share of Quail shot and 00 buck over the years, I just don't really know how it relates to Flechette, which I have no practical experience with, only theory. I assumed that the greater penetration at close range from steel flechettes would better penetrate light armor most soldiers and criminals might wear as well as punch through most cover one would take indoors (light doors, walls, couch, cabinets) but still not be a great threat to those outside the sturdier exterior walls and doors on a building. Do you think I am mistaken?
I don't have law enforcement training, but my point was that I come from a background where I have had firarms around all my life. Simply a point I was trying to make in light of your Hollywooditus comment.