I've been making AP a lot recently, and I've been wondering how boiling the H2O2 affects the yields. I just started an experiment to see. I'm making 2 batches of AP, side by side. Both batches used 30mL of acetone and 16mL of sulfuric acid. I know I'm adding a bit more acetone and acid than reccomended, but I have ample supply. One batch uses 200mL of standard 3% H2O2. The other uses 20mL of H2O2, boiled down from 200mL of 3%. So far I have only gotten to the point of cooling my acetone/H2O2 mixture. I'll let you know what the results of this little experiment are in a day or two.

Notes:
-I poured the acetone into the H2O2 while it was still really hot and I'm pretty sure some of it reacted. It turned a little bit white. I guess I have dicycloacetone peroxide. Remind me not to do that again.
-It took quite a long time to boil the H2O2 down.
-The boiled down H2O2 has a yellowish tint.
-The batch with the boiled H2O2 kind of sizzled as I added acid.
-The heat spike that happens with the addition of the acid happened much more rapidly in the batch with the boiled H2O2.

[This message has been edited by DavidThePyro (edited 12-03-2002).]

Alright, I did the 3% batch normally and it's sitting in the fridge, and no one will be drinking it. The 30% batch was actually scary. The acetone/H2O2 actually hissed every time a added in a drop of acid. I accidently added two drops at a time in the same spot, and the liquid jumped in the air a few mm and turned brown before diving back in the beaker. The temperature of this stuff got to about 15-16 degrees, so that sucks. I'll keep you all posted on what happens to the batches. I also think I'll do another batch of 30% or 15% later in the week. To recap, 30% is scary, and I'll mostly stick to lower concentrations. :-O

Edit: Ever seen ice boil? Just drip ~3mL of H2SO4 on a cube and watch the edges bubble. It's also interesting how H2SO4 will melt a hole in a piece of paper in only a couple seconds. You can tell I was bored waiting for it to cool down...

[This message has been edited by DavidThePyro (edited 12-02-2002).]

Do you have a scale to weight final yields? I'd be interested in seeing if you get more from the 30% or if it just affects reaction speed...

As a matter of fact, I do. I have a My Weigh mx-200 that looks just like the mx-120 on Rat's site.

����I always thought the hydrogen peroxide would decompose if you boiled it. Interesting.

~Zero

Gently boiling it won't necessarily decompose it (as opposed to a vigorous/violent boil), however, once it does begin to decompose (doesn't have to be at the time of boiling either) it goes fairly quick and there's no stopping the process that I know of...

����Right. The vaporizing points of water and hydrogen peroxide are very close, as I recall. I've had more luck freezing the stuff and skimming off the ice.
����In any event, I'll be as interested as any to hear the results.

~Zero

I thought it would decompose too, but I figured it would be worth a try. Anyway, I'm about to go filter out the ap in my fridge from the boiled batch, it looks ready. Actually, it's almost solid, and the only reason it isn't even more solid is because I added ice to cool it down. I'm going to give the other batch another day or so just to be sure.
+++++++
Fast forward:
To preserve the integrity of the experiment, I will hold out on filtering either batch until tomorrow. I might as well wait, seeing that I get my scale back tomorrow from my stoner friends.

[This message has been edited by DavidThePyro (edited 12-02-2002).]

By the way, there's obviously alot more AP in the boiled batch.

i might try AP soon, but for now i am sticking to black powder and flash powder(i heard that they make almost identical sounds in a firecracker, but i am not sure. The black powder and flash powder make some really loud firecrackers anyway).

I've had much better luck simmering my H2O2 down as well. I try to keep the bubbles just around the edges of the pan.

As for that 15-16*C AP, I wouldn't take it out of solution. Anything over 8-10*C is dangerous. And after Boris's accident, i hope this hits home.

When i make AP i use huge amounts of acid to speed up the reaction. I have my own fridge so iv turned it down to 1.C and chill all them chems first then i add them all at once with a few ice shards. ths keeps it cool and in about 3 hours i filter it and put the liquid back in te fridge. mean while the AP dries i use it then filter the rest of the AP. Just before i stuck an AP cracker in a potato. A quite bang a little louder then a party popper but such force. Bits were flung like 30feet into the air. Next time i will film it cus its sooo much fun and better then wasting the dogs toys

Alright, I just filtered out the AP from both batches. There's almost nothing in the unboiled H2O2 batch, while there's almost TOO much in the boiled H2O2 batch. I'll weigh them when they dry. (by the way, how do you spell weigh? and what happened to the "I before E except after C" rule?)

����You got it right. "I before E except after C, and when sounded as A, as in (something) and (something)," and I've long since forgotten what the silly examples.

~Zero

"I before E except after C and when sounded as A as in 'neighbor' and 'WEIGH'

Doesn't look right... oh well. Is it just me or are there 4 question marks before Zero's posts? I see them but it might be my weird browser or something.

Results:
200mL 3% H2O2: .5 grams
20mL boiled (1/10 original volume): 15.5 grams
I don't have enough experiance to know if anything went wrong in the first batch, it kinda seems like it though. It doesn't really matter to me, though, because I did this experiment to see if it's worth it to boil the H2O2 down, and it is. I think I'm going to use 1/5 volume H2O2 from now on.

That's quite a difference! Good job on the experiment. Once I get around to making AP (I should have time in a few weeks over winter break) I'll use unboiled 3% just because I don't want to make much, but if I ever need a larger quantity I'll know what to do...

quote:

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Originally posted by DavidThePyro:
I don't have enough experiance to know if anything went wrong in the first batch, it kinda seems like it though.

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Its very possible nothing went wrong. Higher percentage H2O2 yields faster. If you would have let your first batch sit longer I bet it would keep producing more.

quote:

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Originally posted by DavidThePyro:
Doesn't look right... oh well. Is it just me or are there 4 question marks before Zero's posts? I see them but it might be my weird browser or something.

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����Are you a Mac user? The characters before each of my paragraphs are ASCII character 0180's. In Windows World they behave exactly like spaces, but they aren't techncally whitespace characters. That means I can use them to make indentations without the system automatically throwing them away when I make the post.
����You can try it yourself, if you want. You can't insert a tab into a web forum text box because pressing tab will move the brower's focus to the next item. You can insert tabs by using copy-and-paste or inserting the ASCII character directly, but when the text is sent via the HTTP protocol all the tabs except the first one are for some reason thrown away. The same happens if you try to use spaces instead of tabs.
����In Windows you can hold down Alt and press 0180 on the number pad to insert one of my goofy half-spaces. Try it on your system and see if it's a question mark or a space.

~Zero

Interesring. Well, I just destroyed a bucket of water with my 15g AP, and I have a video Here.
Edit: I hate UBB code.



[This message has been edited by DavidThePyro (edited 12-05-2002).]

I tried AP again for the 5th time and I was unsuccesful again. I mixed 300ml 3% H202 and 50ml acetone. I didn't use any acids but the sludge at the bottom of my jar was the same when I put the Draino in. I filtered out the sludge lost half of it in the drain and the other half fucking disappeared when it was on my filter paper. I am fucking pissed and I need an anwser why this is happening.

Do it like it says Here. If you have only 3% to work with, use 10 times as much H2O2 and SULFURIC ACID.

I don't have sulfuric acid...

ok deux il tell u what happands when i make AP. when i mix all the chems (at6%h202) after about 1 hour the mix is milky white sand sometimes it isnt. when its milky white i filter it through a coffie filter (or tissue) into another container. there is a fluffy white powder on the filter. i leave this in the fridge (i know i dont washs it) and let it dry. when it doesnt do milky white i waite over nite and then filter it. i think it all depends on how much acid i use

If you don't have a strong acid, do not bother. The H2S04 I use is sold as 'Masterjack' drain opener. In the fine print it says it's sulfuric acid. DrainO brand is NaOH, a strong base. If you mix the H2SO4 and the NaOH, you get a bunch of gas, so it might make a good pressure bomb. Anyway here's a test to see if something you have is actual H2SO4: put ~1 teaspoon of sugar into a small glass and pour a few mL of your substance on the sugar. If it's sulfuric acid (or some other powerful dehydrating agent), the sugar will turn into a big blob of carbon after a minute or so.