Ok i've discussed this viewpoint i've thought up many times, but I haven't discussed it recently. Ok here it is.

1+1=always equals 2

Two equal causes always yield the same effect

Every cause has a definite effect

This theory basically describes predetermination. The theory that basically says everything that's going to happen will happen.

Even if we change the future, we would of always changed the future in the first place, so in changing it we never changed it at all.

Here is how the bible would look in context with that view which basically describes predetermination.

Well if everything is predetermined, a question that could come to someone's mind is...

How can a loving god send someone to hell for doing the exact thing he created them to do, based on the way he created them.

I'll give you a few moments to ponder that question.


Well according to logic he can't.

How can a loving god condemn YOU to hell, when the only reason you go to hell is because of the causes god created leading to the effect of hell. With different causes god could of given you, you would of never gone to hell at all.

That is my argument, people have used a counter argument that had to do with the quantom theory.

They basically said that 1+1=doesn't always equal 2. According to the path of the photon, which is unpredictable, chaotic photons with the same exact cause don't travel on the same exact path.

Well to make the claim for predestination, you need to know all the causes. Unfortunately we don't know all the causes, we don't even fully understand how all the forces for subatomic particles relate to each other. For all we know there could be another force we don't even know about attracting the photon changing it's course.


Basically I tried to give two sides for the argument that i'm aware of. I haven't studied quantom physics, so maybe someone could help explain it better. I know from what i've learned from people, and using common sense. I also have a mini faq, that I wrote earlier when all these ideas were still fresh in my mind after thinking about it, and contemplating my theories. I might post that up later, and see if it could get put on toste's data base.

Oh and another question i've thought up earlier using predetermination is God had written the bible exactly how he wanted, therefor any mistake made in the original bible and other versions we're intended and allowed to exist because god created the specific causes leading to the specific error or misconception in the bible.

Comments? Suggestions? Critiques?

[This message has been edited by JamesTheGod (edited 12-15-2002).]

God gave people free will. His will does not infringe on your free will. He set down the guidelines to get to Heaven, you can chose to follow them or not follow them. You see, what you call predestination is what the Anglo-Saxons, a semi-barbaric people, called fate. They thought everything was predetermined. God's will is predetermined, but people's will is not. People can do what they want, when they want. Fate is not a part of any religions you are trying to dispute.

Methinks that when the founders of the Judeo-Christian belief system were starting out, they just wanted a stable and believable set of values, commandments and incentives for the followers of the time.

I get the feeling that withstanding philosophical and logical debate 4000 years in the future wasn't one of their major concerns during the design process.

quote:

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Originally posted by JamesTheGod:


1+1=always equals 2

Two equal causes always yield the same effect

Every cause has a definite effect

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1+1 always equals two AND always does not equal two. These two situations exist at the same time in observable reality. Yes, this is not true in common logic simply because it is defined not to be true in logic. That is just another form of faith and proves nothing except that you believe that way, even though it is wrong, except in your mind.

Likewise, the concept of cause and effect is a faith and also does not exist in observable reality as a unity.

Predetermination and free will exist side by side at the same time and are not mutually exclusive. In fact, they are different manifestations of the only unity.

quote:

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Originally posted by JamesTheGod:
Even if we change the future, we would of always changed the future in the first place, so in changing it we never changed it at all.

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This statement is true. We both changed it and didn't change it at the same "time".

Posted by bkc
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1+1 always equals two AND always does not equal two. These two situations exist at the same time in observable reality. Yes, this is not true in common logic simply because it is defined not to be true in logic.
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Ok, Why doesn't it exist in logic? Explain

posted by TreyDay
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God gave people free will. His will does not infringe on your free will
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Our choices are based on the way god created us. Our choices are just the result of a chain reaction, from the initial way god created us, and the world.

So our choices "free will" is a result of the way god created us.


posted by TreyDay
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You see, what you call predestination is what the Anglo-Saxons, a semi-barbaric people, called fate. They thought everything was predetermined. God's will is predetermined, but people's will is not.
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I don't think god's will is predetermined, I believe people's will, actions and thoughts are. Why would barbaracy have anything to do with these people's intelligence? The crusaders in the middle ages were considered barbaric but we still believe in many of their philosophies.

They were not barbaric, only semi-barbaric. Because barbarians belived in fate, not free will. I didn't say they were dumb because they were smi-barbaric.

Well, God knows what's going to happen and when. He knows when He is going to end the world, and He is the only one.

The only way I can think of to describe this is this:
Michael Jordan gets the ball and is wide open with the game on the line. I know what he's going to do, you know what he's going to do, everyone knows what he's going to do; he's going to shoot it, obviously. But he COULD opt to pass to someone else. He has free will to do whatever he wants with the ball, even though I know he going to shoot it.

I'm just going to reiterate to make sure it is clear. In observable reality it is true, when considering the question "Does 1+1=2?", that the answer is both "yes" and "no" at the same time. Both answers are correct in any example you want to pick.

In logic, given that 1+1 is equal to 2,it is a conclusion that this can be the only correct answer. This conclusion is a matter of belief and is not derived from from experience.

He put us on this earth to let us have a choice, in other words he gives us another chance. The only choice we really have is to eather be a good person or "bad". I'm Jewish so thats how I think. for ex. Yeshma'ell (is that how u spell it in enlglish) was destined to be a rasha (evil person) but he ended up being a really spiretial man.

I think that's Ishmael in English, but I'm not sure because the name for Jesus and Jesus in hebrew is real different. It sounds like Yeshawah, or something like that.

Languages - one of my favorite things. Quite interesting if you actaully learn about them.
Yeshmael would be the hebrew way, ishmael the english way. Jesus - english, yoshkah or yeshu in hebrew. Side point - you wouldn't believe how many words come from latin.

doublethink

lol, ppl call jesus yeshka to make fun of him!

If you have a religious God then it is contradicting because it states:

God is all loving
God Knows all
God punishes and sends to hell
God gave you free will

If god knows all, then he knew every possible move/action that you were going to make before you were born. Therefore he created beings in his/her own amusement for predestination. Setting a group to go "here" and "there". So how much free will do you really have? And if God sends to hell, then God is not all loving.

Here is something you can think about. The creator has no Bias. We live in a world of relativity. If God is all, then God is the opposite of All (to complete all) which is nothing. Therefore God is absolute, Hence God cannot Judge. Because "wrong" and "right" is ALL relative from person to person.

What is wrong for me, can be right in another part of geography. and vice versa

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In logic, given that 1+1 is equal to 2,it is a conclusion that this can be the only correct answer. This conclusion is a matter of belief and is not derived from from experience.
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I'm talking about the specific value, not the name we use to call the value. We could call the value of what we use for 3, two.

I'm holding an apple in each of my hands, how many apples am I holding all together (assuming I have two hands). I'm holding two apples. We call "this" value two.

God creates us, then he sends us to hell because we act exactly how he created us to act, knowing we would act that way.

Oh he gives us a second chance, we would never need a second chance, if god didn't fuck up the first time.

The only reason people don't believe what i'm saying, is because they don't understand it. I'm sorry some people aren't intelligent enough to grasp what i've typed.

Heh that should stir some controversy.



[This message has been edited by JamesTheGod (edited 12-20-2002).]

The beautiful thing about someone preaching the Determinist doctrine is they're contradicting themself.

If Determinism is true, then everything you do is predetermined by certain chemical and physical rules which are applied to the world and continue to act in a predictable fashion. Except...

1 - Determinism leads to Fatalism. If everything is predetermined, there is no point in trying to do anything, because if it has been predetermined, then you'll do it, otherwise you won't. You should just sit on your ass because that's what you've been predetermined to do.

2 - No matter how much a person may claim that determinism is true, they will go on thinking they have free will. You don't walk around, believing your every action is governed by set rules and circumstances which make it impossible to act in any other way.

Oh, and regarding the bit about Quantum Mechanics, yes according to our current understanding of it, certain things are entirely unpredictable (like the point in time at which a radioactive substance decays). However, the idea is that you have free will, not random-chance-actions (which are [u]determined[/u] by the decay of random particles in your brain). Therefore, the Quantum Mechanics argument is invalid in the Free Will vs Determinism debate.

I am not omnipotent and I dont live in heaven so get that thought out of your head. Im a mortal just like the rest of you but just wait til im 60 and I bend spoons with my mind.

quote:

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Originally posted by TreyDay:
Michael Jordan gets the ball and is wide open with the game on the line. I know what he's going to do, you know what he's going to do, everyone knows what he's going to do; he's going to shoot it, obviously. But he COULD opt to pass to someone else. He has free will to do whatever he wants with the ball, even though I know he going to shoot it.

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You don't know, you think he'll shoot it. he has the greatest probability of shooting the ball, so you roll with that probability.

Now if you knew for a fact that he was going to shoot the ball, which is a 3 pointer at the buzzer to win the game, during the beginning of the last quarter, or before the game, or before MJ even got into playing basketball, he couldn't choose anything else.

God creates the ball. God has the ball. God shoots the ball knowing full well where it will end up. God knows if he shoots the ball in a particular way, a guy namesd Michael Jordan will score a winning 3 pointer in a basketball game at the buzzer.

Out of all the possible ways God could have shot the ball, he choose to shoot it in a way in which that 3 pointer would be shiot to win the game, where a man named Hitler in Germany would be born and be exposed to certain stimuli he provided with which would cause him to think certain things that lead right up to the third reich.

God has the choice of shooting the ball where Joe goes to hell and Bob doesn't, where Bob goes to hell and Joe doesn't, where they both go to hell, or where they both don't. He knows this an eternity in advance.

If God chooses to make the universe where they both come into existence and then he chooses to damn them to hell after they die their death, which he also designed, how is he not deciding what happens? he could have chosen to create a world where they are exposed to stimuli that makes them thing thing X and in thinking thing X they go to fictional location Y, but he didn't. He chose to provide them with stimulus Q, and in thinking thing Q they go to hell because they didn't think thing X.

quote:

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Originally posted by Pr0x1mo:
If you have a religious God then it is contradicting because it states:

God is all loving
God Knows all
God punishes and sends to hell
God gave you free will

If god knows all, then he knew every possible move/action that you were going to make before you were born. Therefore he created beings in his/her own amusement for predestination. Setting a group to go "here" and "there". So how much free will do you really have? And if God sends to hell, then God is not all loving.

Here is something you can think about. The creator has no Bias. We live in a world of relativity. If God is all, then God is the opposite of All (to complete all) which is nothing. Therefore God is absolute, Hence God cannot Judge. Because "wrong" and "right" is ALL relative from person to person.

What is wrong for me, can be right in another part of geography. and vice versa

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You had it, then you lost it. God (theoretically) knows every POSSIBLE move you could make. However, every possible action does occur, albeit in a different universe. Whenever any situation with multiple outcomes exists, reality branches off into a universe for each possible outcome. So, in theory, a being existing outside of time and reality entirely - God - would be able to simply see every single possible outcome. This doesn't preclude you from choosing which outcome you will actually pursue.

At least, that's my understanding of the theory. Those of you with more scientific acumen, please correct me if I'm wrong - I'm a political science major, not a physicist.

Why do people keep saying that god sends us to Hell for being how he created us? It never struck me as difficult or unnatural to follow the Ten Commandments.

It's like if you build a pipe bomb, knowing all the effects of the pipe bomb before setting it off, and thus deeming all of them acceptable, being able to create the pipe bomb in which anything you want will happen when detonated, choosing to make the pipebomb where the majority of all people that will be created as a result from the exlposion will go to hell for not believing in you due to reasonable doubt and gross lack of evidence, setting that pipebomb off, knowing fully well everything that will happen as a result, even at the quantum level, and then getting pissed off at the results, therefore making you schizophrenic because you could have had the results wind up differently but chose these ones above all others.

Drak Magneto you have just received the award for posting the longest paragraph comprised of a single sentence,

*re-reading*

damn that one was long

Anyways there is no god or devil, there are only eleven colors and clear. They go from dark to light. Learn about it and apply it to all matters of existance and become enlightened.

Goddammit, I thought you were the messiah and the Anti-christ?

Thank you DarkMagneto,

At least someone here understands what i'm talking about. Of course they'll think before they respond to what you posted because you're the big bad moderator, while they won't think before they respond to me the one with about 10 posts. Also I may have to steal your example
Oh by the way, did you realize this determinationism idea all by yourself?

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1 - Determinism leads to Fatalism. If everything is predetermined, there is no point in trying to do anything, because if it has been predetermined, then you'll do it, otherwise you won't. You should just sit on your ass because that's what you've been predetermined to do.
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You're right there isn't any point in trying to do anything. Still you have to act like you can change it. Otherwise you won't fit into the mold of society. You can't say an examples wrong because you can't "Live" thinking like that, because you can.

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2 - No matter how much a person may claim that determinism is true, they will go on thinking they have free will. You don't walk around, believing your every action is governed by set rules and circumstances which make it impossible to act in any other way.
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People do choose their choices, they only choose them once. If you believe in the existance of a higher power, then he chooses what you will choose, but you still choose based on what he wanted you to choose.

Sigh, you can't argue with people too stupid to at least figure out what the you're talking about.



[This message has been edited by JamesTheGod (edited 12-26-2002).]