Please tell me that they are not!

Yes they were cause Satan before he wen't to hell was God's top angel. That is until he lost the plot and wanted God's position.

Your friends with Satan what are you on about!

But the question was Friends. Friends implies equals. Friends was Satan's preception. God sent his 'friend' to hell. Think about it.

Nox

quote:

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Originally posted by mysterychick:
Please tell me that they are not!

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God and Satan are not friends.
There you go.

Actually, if you think about it, Satan was god's best friend even after going to hell, as it was the "boogie-monster's out to get you" idea of Satan that the church created that kept so many people faithful to it. Without Satan scaring people towards christianity, god would've fallen off the face of the Earth long ago.

As I see it you can't have light without darkness. So the evil in the universe is nessesary for good to be a choice that we all can make. That's why it's called by some the dark side of what is good.

quote:

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Originally posted by danameric:
As I see it you can't have light without darkness.

---

aka Yin and Yang.

Nox

Wouldn't Yin and Yang also imply equality?

quote:

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Originally posted by Nox:
God sent his 'friend' to hell.

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I see Satan as more of an employee of god, who then got fired and went to work for the competition, where he constantly bad-mouths his former employer. Look at the market share he picked up for himself.

On a side note, where does the banishment myth originate? It's interesting that, evil; becoming seperate and whole, out of the single and only good, could represent some actual event that would also be indicated by the differences in the New and Old Testament gods. The old god liked his vengeance, but the new one is more like a pacifier.

quote:

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Originally posted by Bogey Man:
Wouldn't Yin and Yang also imply equality?

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Yes.

Nox

i wouldn't call what happened to satan a punishment at all. i mean, he got his own realm, from which he can do all the evil things he wants. And he seems to be much coser to the hearts of man.

I see god and satan as parents who have had a divorce. Satan just let's people stay up late and eat junkfood. That's why he's my favorite.

Evil is kind of like non-existance trying to catch up with creation.

Judism's view:
Satan is not truly evil, he is gods prosecutor! Would you call the DA (Defense Attorny or the person who sues you for crimes against the state) Evil? Thats basically all satan (lucifer) is.

When did they stop being friends?

They were lovers in the Bible. They were always hanging out together, plotting together, talking about things, working things out.

I don't remember any part in the Bible where they actually stopped being friends. All I remember is that they fought a lot.

Personally, I think they were gay lovers.

But, that's just me.

Just kidding.

Sort of.

Cheers,
Lost

quote:

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Originally posted by LostCause:

They were lovers in the Bible. They were always hanging out together, plotting together, talking about things, working things out.

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Seems you�re talking about Sophia and God, rather than Satan and God...

FoxLeonard

[This message has been edited by FoxLeonard (edited 11-16-2002).]

There is only one mentioning, in Isahia ch 14, of this fall, and it only mentions Lucifer (the lightbearer, or the day star; i.e. Venus, the morning star).

Isa 14:12 begins: "How art thou fallen from heaven, oh Lucifer, son of the morning..."

The passage describes the fall from heaven of one who said "I will make myself like the Most High". Hell is mentioned, but Satan is not even hinted at. Yet, this is the whole - weak - basis for the belief that Satan was an angel who rebelled against God and was cast into hell.

To make it even more strange, the Latin Bible uses the term "lucifer" for the signs of the zodiac (Job somewhere). And for Jesus! In the Second Epistle of Peter 1:19, the english text says:

"We have also a more sure word of prophecy, whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts"

In the Latin version it ends: ...and Lucifer arise in your hearts.

This is undoubtedly a prophecy about the Messiah, whether Jesus or not. And note that it makes much more sense to use day star/morning star/lightbearer/Lucifer, as a metaphor for (the coming of) something positive. We speak of "the light at the end of the tunnel" and "s/he brought light back into my life". We speak of wise men, such as Jesus, as enlightened, while we speak of evil things as dark, and of Satan as the Prince of Darkness.

Satan as Lucifer the fallen angel, is a far-fetched idea by some Church Father(s), and nothing else...

FoxLeonard

wow that's really interesting... if you don't mind me asking fox but how do you know all this?

quote:

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Originally posted by govinda:
wow that's really interesting... if you don't mind me asking fox but how do you know all this?

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By studying the history of Satan/the Devil, or, more correctly, mankind�s depictions of evil through the ages. And by studying the Bible and some theology, including alterantive theology, and Gnosticism. Among other things...

But don�t believe I knew it all by heart. Especially not in english. For the qoutes I had to use my King James� bible.

FoxLeonard

quote:

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You can't have light without darkness...

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But you can have darkness without light.

So a necessity of darkness would imply evil as the original state.

quote:

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Originally posted by VeneFrigus:
But you can have darkness without light.

So a necessity of darkness would imply evil as the original state.

---

It might seem so, but if you look upon it again, the assumption is made from a literal interpretation of the metaphors good=light/evil=darkness.

At the dawn of cultures, this had (from what we can understand) a literal meaning. Man was afraid of the darkness of the night (also for practical reasons); afraid that the sun wouldn�t come back the next day, or that the moon wouldn�t arrive to shine when it was supposed to. It also seems that man very early realized the importance of the sun; that it actually gave life and not only light. Instinct or intuition, rather than science, but that is beside the point. Worship of the Sun and the Moon, are (among) the earliest religions we know.

Since then mankind has carried this double metaphor through many cultures and religions, using it, and sometimes abusing it.

To assume that evil was the originate state of the Cosmos, because light needs darkness, is abuse of the meataphor.

It also makes a bad metaphor in itself, as light in reality doesn�t need darkness, not even to be seen. Use a bright enough light and you see it in full sunshine. Light needs relative darkness, and that is contained in light itself.

Look at the symbol of Yin and Yang. One half of the circle is black, the other white. Note that they are not divided by a straight line, but by a curve, suggesting that they are interlocked; undivideable. In the black part, there is a white spot inbedded, and in the white part there is a black spot. This suggests that there is no such thing as pure white or pure black, as they each contain a little of the opposite.

Perhaps they existed separately at one point, but even then they contained a little of the other. This would also be true if one existed before the other...

In addition to a "yes" and a "no", the Universe contains a "maybe".

FoxLeonard

quote:

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Originally posted by SpaceFalcon2001:
Would you call the DA (Defense Attorny or the person who sues you for crimes against the state) Evil?

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Sometimes.
___

quote:

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Originally posted by VeneFrigus:
But you can have darkness without light.

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I disagree. How would you know what darkness is, if you didn't have light to judge it by? Light and dark need each other for, at the very least, their basic identities.

[/quote]So a necessity of darkness would imply evil as the original state.[/QUOTE]

One cannot exist without the other, so they both came into being at the same time. If they've both existed for what we call infinity, then it's just as moot.
___

quote:

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Originally posted by FoxLeonard:
This suggests that there is no such thing as pure white or pure black, as they each contain a little of the opposite.

---

How can just your observations (the mixture of light and dark in our earthly realm), bring you to the assumption that the SOURCE of these influences isn't pure?

And as far as the Yin and Yang symbol is concerned, I always thought the curved line represented the ebb and flow of the two forces.

user X

It might be that I have some kind of hang-over after answering too many of Blue-Rocks muddled posts, but at the moment I don�t understand your question to me, in reference to your post as a whole.

First you reply, to VeneFrigus:

"One cannot exist without the other, so they both came into being at the same time. If they have both existed for what we call infinity, then it�s just as moot."

This I take to mean that Light and Darkness allways exist as a pair. As far as I know, that is also what I said, in reference to the black and white in the Yin & Yang symbol.

If you refer to the sentence: "Light needs relative darkness, and that is contained in light itself."

There I happen to quote myself, as I use that phrase very often when teaching stage lighting.

When replying to VeneFrigus I realized that my phrase was (seemingly) applicable to what I was trying to say, as well as to the black-with-white/white-with-black symbolism of Yin and Yang. I did not try to make any assumptions about the true nature of Good and Evil, from that passage. Perhaps it seems like I did, but then it is because I have made it murky by "inventing" that metaphor while writing.

But the Yin & Yang symbol clearly suggests that there is no such thing as pure white/good(among other things) and pure black/evil(among other things).

As for Yin & Yang and "interlocked" vs ebb and flow, I have, in a couple of interpretations read that they are (slightly) interlocked or intertwined, or gripping at eachother; helping eachother not to slide apart. And the tidal waves work to the same effect; when one flows the other ebbs, and they are therefore all the time in total contact, from one end to the other.

As I still suffer from Blue-Rock-hangover. Have some mercy if this was not the answer you were asking for, or if this made a murky statement into total darkness. In other words, ask again!

FoxLeonard

me thinks this has gotten semi off-track

Err your my friend mysteryskank!

Some Native Americans said that the creator and the destroyer were twin brothers born of the same woman who decended from the plane of exsistence above ours, or something very simalar. Now take that basic philosophy into account where as the creator and the destroyer are exact compliments, or equals (yin and yang is a good example) created by a higher power than both of them. Pretty interesting if you think about it. It makes a lot of sense too. It is pretty common in a lot of ancient religions.

Interesting!

Looking at the Native American concept and the Yin and Yang mentality, which tell of equality, I'm wondering if Christianity is the only religion that emphasises that makes such a big deal of Satan/negative force , instead of accepting its existence as part of the world.

If they actually exsist, then chances are they played together as children, and then satan was jealous of god and turned to the underworld mood, and decided, to hell with god.

My reply to Vene was separate. I believe that one cannot exist without the other.

quote:

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Originally posted by FoxLeonard:
But the Yin & Yang symbol clearly suggests that there is no such thing as pure white/good(among other things) and pure black/evil(among other things).

---

One of my past martial arts instructors taught me that it represented light and dark, and that we existed on the line in the center. Light and dark's influences will come and go in our lives (i.e. the curvature of the line), as these two forces battle each other for dominance of the whole. Life on the line may consist of both forces, and it may seem to be a gray area there, but that doesn't mean that each force doesn't come from a pure source.

quote:

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Originally posted by sedqon:
i wouldn't call what happened to satan a punishment at all. i mean, he got his own realm, from which he can do all the evil things he wants. And he seems to be much coser to the hearts of man.

I see god and satan as parents who have had a divorce. Satan just let's people stay up late and eat junkfood. That's why he's my favorite.

---

Satan didnt immediately want to do mean and nasty torturous things to everyone, he just wanted to be god, number one ... like head of a company - yeah bad motives, but being punished in such a painful way, saught revenge with the equal punishment of everyone else. i guess

im a spiritualist anyway, i dont believe in god or satan - they're just really powerful metaphors

quote:

---

Originally posted by FoxLeonard:
There is only one mentioning, in Isahia ch 14, of this fall, and it only mentions Lucifer (the lightbearer, or the day star; i.e. Venus, the morning star).

Isa 14:12 begins: "How art thou fallen from heaven, oh Lucifer, son of the morning..."

The passage describes the fall from heaven of one who said "I will make myself like the Most High". Hell is mentioned, but Satan is not even hinted at. Yet, this is the whole - weak - basis for the belief that Satan was an angel who rebelled against God and was cast into hell.

To make it even more strange, the Latin Bible uses the term "lucifer" for the signs of the zodiac (Job somewhere). And for Jesus! In the Second Epistle of Peter 1:19, the english text says:

"We have also a more sure word of prophecy, whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts"

In the Latin version it ends: ...and Lucifer arise in your hearts.

This is undoubtedly a prophecy about the Messiah, whether Jesus or not. And note that it makes much more sense to use day star/morning star/lightbearer/Lucifer, as a metaphor for (the coming of) something positive. We speak of "the light at the end of the tunnel" and "s/he brought light back into my life". We speak of wise men, such as Jesus, as enlightened, while we speak of evil things as dark, and of Satan as the Prince of Darkness.

Satan as Lucifer the fallen angel, is a far-fetched idea by some Church Father(s), and nothing else...

FoxLeonard

---

That's not the only passage. There are other books to the religion than those in the Bible, but they're called unorthodox. There's a book that would go before Genesis and it talks about time before Earth. Satan was an angel in heaven and in charge of music. That is why back in the old days of America and they thought secular music and dancing was evil because they thought it was controlled by Satan.
And everyone who spells it god and not God, you're just dumb. If you capitalize God, it means you're talking about the one in the Bible, if you spell it god, then you're talking about the Greek and Roman gods and aren't specifying which one. You're not disrespecting God when you spell it god, you're just showing that you are talking about the Roman and Greek ones. And I don't think they knew much about Satan.

Originally posted by VeneFrigus:
But you can have darkness without light.

What is really darkness? When its night time theres still the moon right? I would rather think of it like this: Your in a room that the only light comes from the windows. When you close all the window it becomes completly dark. So our conclusion is that we can not have alittle of each (darness and light).

quote:

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Originally posted by user X:
My reply to Vene was separate. I believe that one cannot exist without the other.

One of my past martial arts instructors taught me that it represented light and dark, and that we existed on the line in the center. Light and dark's influences will come and go in our lives (i.e. the curvature of the line), as these two forces battle each other for dominance of the whole. Life on the line may consist of both forces, and it may seem to be a gray area there, but that doesn't mean that each force doesn't come from a pure source.

---

Well think about that. It wouldnt be possible for one to exsist on its own.
B/c you wouldnt know what light was until you reached that line where dark met. Then you would say... "Oh so this is light".

Meaning, "Light" would have no clue of it's exsistence if "Dark" wasnt apart of it.
The source could be 100% pure. But pure what ? A pure un-identified somthing or other.

So I dont think it makes sense to say that you believe one isnt without the other. But then say they come from a pure source.

Or maybe I just missed your point.

[This message has been edited by abstractAffect (edited 12-18-2002).]

Well it says in the tora that at first G-d created such a pure and beutiful light that we weren't spectial enough to see. If someone is a really good and spiratual person then when they die they will be able to see just for a second that beutiful light.

quote:

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Originally posted by abstractAffect:
The source could be 100% pure. But pure what ? A pure un-identified somthing or other.

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Their purity is an abstraction. The point where they become pure is beyond our reach, so we extrapolate their existance. So they have an abstractAffect on our lives. heh.

quote:

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Originally posted by artzy1989:
If someone is a really good and spiratual person then when they die they will be able to see just for a second that beutiful light.

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But they would only recognise it because they had seen darkness during their life, and therefore have something to compare it to.

LOL... Good one X.

Your need for darkness to compare light with is born of our own mortal minds, not an inherent law of the cosmos.

Satan and God are the same person. I am the 3rd Antichrist and the Messiah.

Actually, I'm pretty sure you're an idiot.

I know you are but what am I? Besides the antichrist or messiah?

quote:

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Originally posted by Kia Kordestani:
I know you are but what am I? Besides the antichrist or messiah?

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Caught inbetween, perhaps?!

Just a guess...

FoxLeonard

Your right. They both rest on each one of my shoulders representing "good" and "bad".

quote:

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Originally posted by Kia Kordestani:
I know you are but what am I? Besides the antichrist or messiah?

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I am the Satanic Walrus of Unholy Doom, also known as Rosie O'Donnell.

Maybe we could get back to the topic here?

quote:

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Originally posted by Armed&Angry:
Your need for darkness to compare light with is born of our own mortal minds, not an inherent law of the cosmos.

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Human emotion and instinct - probably aren't a universal physical law, but that doesn't disprove the darkness.

quote:

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Originally posted by Armed&Angry:
Your need for darkness to compare light with is born of our own mortal minds, not an inherent law of the cosmos.

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And yet you use your mortal mind all the time to judge the cosmos (or at least the interpretation of it) - is it not impossible to do otherwise?