Islam or Christianity - who knows which one is correct- your thoughts?

NONE.... there is no god... no offence but try thinking about it...

Why do you assume either is correct?

What about the other tens of thousands of religions?

I am a born again christian and I know that any other beief is a bunch of garbage. That doesn't mean I hate the people from the other religeons, I just hate their ways. I did not want come to this forum because I knew that there would be a lot of things agaisnt christianity. There are too many athiests here for my mind to handle so I most probably won't be coming here too much.

BTW, christianity is not a religeon, it's a way of life. If anyone wants argue on this statement, I would gladly put you to shame and prove that christianity is the way to go.

[This message has been edited by DeusExMachina (edited 11-02-2002).]

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Isnt part of the definition of a religion the fact that it is a way of life?


By the way, Christianity is homosexual.

quote:

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Originally posted by DeusExMachina:
I am a born again christian and I know that any other beief is a bunch of garbage.

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Too bad. Hopefully in time you'll get over it.

quote:

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Originally posted by DeusExMachina:
I did not want come to this forum because I knew that there would be a lot of things agaisnt christianity.

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So why did you?

quote:

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Originally posted by DeusExMachina:
I most probably won't be coming here too much.

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Good.

quote:

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Originally posted by DeusExMachina:
BTW, christianity is not a religeon, it's a way of life.

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No it is not. Islam is a way of life. Too bad your narrow scope of religion (ie, Born Again- by the way- did it hurt your mother as much the second time around?) does not allow you to investigate other religions.

quote:

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Originally posted by DeusExMachina:
If anyone wants argue on this statement, I would gladly put you to shame and prove that christianity is the way to go.

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Give it your best shot kid, Nox is ready.

Nox

This is why I thought you hated God NOX

I've already told you my thoughts about God. I am still waiting for Dues to come debate the virtues of Christianity.

Nox

That's going to be an interesting debate.

I'm not holding my breath. I have a nickle that says Dues won't be back.

Nox

Belligerent people like DouchebagExMachina make Christians look worse.

No one said anything to purposely instigate a fight, but he's so insecure about his, in my opinion, complete ignorance that he has to come in swinging.

maybe you should be asking where they both came from: Judism! Maybe Judism is the right one, and those are just insane versions of it! Eh? Eh?

Or maybe the easyest, simplest, most logical and no-nonsense answer of them all being bullshit is correct and the first cause came to be through some unknown means that we don't know?

Of course, that gets rid of the harping illusion of an all-perfect anthropomorphic deity that just arbitrarily happened to exist while showing no discernable evidence of existence and smacks of human construct, but what the hell.

Have you been challenged by anyone else NOX?

quote:

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Originally posted by DeusExMachina:
I am a born again christian and I know that any other beief is a bunch of garbage.
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BTW, christianity is not a religeon, it's a way of life.

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Maybe thats why you suck. You think you know, and are therefore deem yourself an ignorent Assphuck. By not even considering the possibility that another religion could be true you are a closed minded bigot. Tell me, did jesus simply comeback to you so you would gave him a blowjob?
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It's a religion. It has only become a way of life because of all the people who are christians. However it is tainted and has no integrity. Why? Count how many varities there are and, for every one, take away 1 point of integrity. Id sooner be a muslem in islam before I would join your crap.

Niether...

Organized religion defies faith. Faith doesn't mean that you dress up real nice and put nasty perfume and colone (spelling?) on and listen to some guy with osteoperosis TELL you what to do in life otherwise punishable with firey death.

Faith is a way of life, christianity, islam, witchcraft or any other religion is NOT. I am a man of faith; I often say I believe in God, though I wouldn't nessessarily make him as much of a being as opposed to a thought structure. I believe in a bad and good afterlife and I believe that I'm going to the good one, even though I don't have a pair of white church pants and nasty colone (refer to the previous usage of this word) sitting on my dresser next to my "Christians Rule" poster and Buddy Christ figurine (which I am getting off the internet).

Dues, you need to realize this that is doesn't matter what you have faith in, just that you HAVE faith.


~Mai Ancora

[This message has been edited by DaHc (edited 11-24-2002).]

DeusExMachina = Out of God's Machine

Man, isn't a religion what you believe in? Therefore, Christianity is a religion. I don't know why so many of you say it isn't.

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By the way, Christianity is homosexual.

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In what way?

quote:

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maybe you should be asking where they both came from: Judism! Maybe Judism is the right one, and those are just insane versions of it! Eh? Eh?

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Judaism isn't a complete religion, Christianity is its fulfillment.
And Islam did not come from Judaism, Ishmael and Isaac just both came from Abraham. (If you care to read the real version of the Koran, you'll find out how much Muslims are supposed to hate Jews and Christians)

quote:

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Or maybe the easyest, simplest, most logical and no-nonsense answer of them all being bullshit is correct and the first cause came to be through some unknown means that we don't know?

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I find it harder to believe that nothing make something out of nothing, than that God made something out of nothing.

quote:

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It's a religion. It has only become a way of life because of all the people who are christians. However it is tainted and has no integrity. Why? Count how many varities there are and, for every one, take away 1 point of integrity. Id sooner be a muslem in islam before I would join your crap.

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Good point. I agree with you, there are far too many factions within Christianity, but not about becoming a muslim. But then again, there are a few different religious groups with slightly different beliefs within Islam, too.

quote:

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Faith is a way of life

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Isn't faith what you have trust in? :P

quote:

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I believe in a bad and good afterlife and I believe that I'm going to the good one, even though I don't have a pair of white church pants and nasty colone (refer to the previous usage of this word) sitting on my dresser next to my "Christians Rule" poster and Buddy Christ figurine (which I am getting off the internet).

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Personally, if I'm not sure of something, I make the effort to find out....If you're not sure, how can you make others sure?

quote:

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Originally posted by DaHc:
Dues, you need to realize this that is doesn't matter what you have faith in, just that you HAVE faith.

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If I base my life around a faith that torturing and burning my mother at the stake will guarantee me a favourable afterlife, is that better than having no faith at all?

I reckon it is possible to adhere to a self-derived moral/personal code without faith in an external entity or force.

TIGER J I guess you would love listening to Pastor Phil Pringle in OZ ah. He's really good.

I can't say I've ever heard of him.
Who is he?

quote:

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Originally posted by DeusExMachina:
I am a born again christian and I know that any other beief is a bunch of garbage. That doesn't mean I hate the people from the other religeons, I just hate their ways.

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"sounds like your God is full of hate. looks like your on the right path." Sivvy sarcastically says as he exits out of totse with a bad taste in his mouth from such a terrible post.

Hey people... u can not say anything about Islam unless u know about it as much as I know...

Islam wasn't a way of life... it was a Heavenly Religion sent by the Almighty Creator to his faithful Prophet Muhamamd through Gabriel The Archangel

Islam is a perfect religion, it deals with everything in life, and it doens't order of doing anything bad, while most ppl misunderstand the idea of Jihad which screws their idea about Islam

Islam is the last and perfect religion, which deletes the past heavenly religions which includes Christianity and Judaism

and as Allah said: "And who looks forward for a religion but Islam, it will not be accepted from him"

if u know more about Muhammmd, u will know a man like Muhammad won't abberance ppl and he won't lie...

would he whom was called by his ppl till the age of 40 "The Truthful The Honest" lie? And lie on whom, on GOD???


ISLAM IS THE RELIGION,
CHRISTIANITY WAS THE RELIGION

it sounds like you practice Islam, but why then do you practice such a modest religion yet post your name so cheesily: BIN LADEN from Egypt. im not trying to rag on you or nothing my friend, but an enlightned person isn't so tasteless. i've read the Koran though, i couldn't get much from it. i think the transilation was off or something. however, i am interested in Islam, and your passage on it only makes me more curious into your culture. do you have any literature you would like to share?

I believe Christianity - after all I won't trust a rich man who walks out of a cave, believing he has seen God.

quote:

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Originally posted by margeri26:
Judaism isn't a complete religion, Christianity is its fulfillment.
And Islam did not come from Judaism, Ishmael and Isaac just both came from Abraham.

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You dumb shit! Abraham was a jew when hagar had Ismael. Abraham had to get rid of him and his line formed its own religion.
-----------------------------------
And dammit ill say it again! Christianity and Islam are Jewish expansion packs! What do you think messianic Jews are? They are the original christianity! Judism by itself is perfectly complete. When you add a messiah that doesnt really save, that would turn down 90% of the applicants to heaven, you better wonder!

My goodness, what a thread.

BIN LADEN wrote: "...while most ppl misunderstand the idea of Jihad which screws their idea about Islam."

If either Christianity or Islam were so very "perfect", as some of you seem to believe, they would not be surrounded by such stigma. I am not one to lean very heavily upon public opinion when coming to abstract conclusions, but that so many people find the three religions (a few of you mentioned Judaism) in question to be so unsavory reinforces my belief that something is very wrong with all of them. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, as currently practiced, are mutually contradictory. It doesn't take much research in order to see that.

I was once a very active Christian, but a series of experiences, both happy and sad, prompted me to loosen my deathgrip on the dogma and pursue further enlightenment. From time to time I am afraid that indeed I may have crossed the proverbial line, but a still small voice inside tells me to relax, that GOD (he/she/it) cannot be described or contained by the religionists; they simply mold the graven image to suit their own needs, to deepen their hold on the souls of their followers.

I put my faith in a Force that cannot be exploited by mere men.

P.S. Who are the Discordians? I am intrigued by what I've heard thus far...

quote:

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Originally posted by BIN LADEN:
Hey people... u can not say anything about Islam unless u know about it as much as I know...

Islam wasn't a way of life... it was a Heavenly Religion sent by the Almighty Creator to his faithful Prophet Muhamamd through Gabriel The Archangel

Islam is a perfect religion, it deals with everything in life, and it doens't order of doing anything bad, while most ppl misunderstand the idea of Jihad which screws their idea about Islam

Islam is the last and perfect religion, which deletes the past heavenly religions which includes Christianity and Judaism

and as Allah said: "And who looks forward for a religion but Islam, it will not be accepted from him"

if u know more about Muhammmd, u will know a man like Muhammad won't abberance ppl and he won't lie...

would he whom was called by his ppl till the age of 40 "The Truthful The Honest" lie? And lie on whom, on GOD???


ISLAM IS THE RELIGION,
CHRISTIANITY WAS THE RELIGION

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CHRISTIAN MANAFESTATION - MOTHER TERESA
ISLAM MANAFESTATION - OSAMA BIN LADEN

Please don't tell me Laden is your hero. Well let me share on what I know about Islam.
Of coarse the West will think you guys are bad. Its not you guys as persons but perhaps the ideals you follow! Islam founded by Muhammad(SP?) is based on an old Moon worshiping religion in which Allah is the Moon Gods name. Furthermore Mohammad may have been a prophet but his personal life wasn't line with the standards set by God in the first place. E.G Mohummads many wifes and his one which was only 9 or 10 years old. Sounds Pedephile to me! However the Book he wrote the Koran has most of its scriptures quoted from the OLD TESTIMENT and if you read it enough it tells of the Messiah Christ, Jesus. (As old testiment prophecies say) Its sounds like a religion of control as Mohammed conquered many places during his reign and special emphesis on Mecca to now most devout Muslims play to facing east. Historically recorded Nebukanzzer did that though his idol and where is he now? Even personal experience of demonically possed people who's demons are kicked out in the name of Christ Jesus. Never has anyone done that in the name of Allah. Extremist Muslims just seem to blow themselves up in that name. Even the guy who tried to kill the Pope failed and later while he was in jail the Pope went to him and forgave him. He later became Christian!

Believe me I know about the Crusades and how wrong the "so called" Christians did to alot of people. Butchering umarmed people not right and I'll apologise on their behalf. No one is perfect you see but the God that we worship is. Does that make sense? And though him Christ Jesus we are make perfect so as to enter heaven with God and be with him!

Well I don't blame you guys for being angry at the western world and Christians but as the sayings go "Two wrongs don't make a right".

quote:

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Originally posted by Manglemere:
My godess, what a thread

P.S. Who are the Discordians? I am intrigued by what I've heard thus far...

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You had been slightly closer to the answer if you had made the typo I have now manipulated into your post.

Do you want to to know why a pyramid has five sides?

Do you want to learn about the teachings of Sri Syadasti?

Did you know you have a lopsided pineal gland?

If so, we can help you!

Hail Eris! Hail Hail!

FoxLeonard ordained Pope of POEE

Quote: "You had been slightly closer to the answer if you had made the typo I have now manipulated into your post."

Lovely. How often do you misspell the word "goddess"? It's a very bad habit, considering... LoL.

Manglemere!

Never! Except when I make a typo for you...

But to misspell it is actually correct, considering...

FoxLeonard

cmon guys there is no god all that crap was in the past. tell me how do you even know all that stuff existed when you werent even alive back then you have to give me some proof and you better not hand me the bible or the quran cuz thats no proof. you dont even know that some guy wrote that stuff sitting in his front porch



[This message has been edited by PakiprototypeX (edited 11-27-2002).]

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Originally posted by Sivvy:
it sounds like you practice Islam, but why then do you practice such a modest religion yet post your name so cheesily: BIN LADEN from Egypt. im not trying to rag on you or nothing my friend, but an enlightned person isn't so tasteless. i've read the Koran though, i couldn't get much from it. i think the transilation was off or something. however, i am interested in Islam, and your passage on it only makes me more curious into your culture. do you have any literature you would like to share?

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The name doesn't make a big difference, my friend... My name BIN LADEN is just a way to express someone who refused the American tyranny...

anyway, I am a Muslim, actionally a very-thinking Muslim, that means I read nearly all Holy Books and asked about all religions Heavenly and non-Heavenly, but found no religion better than Islam, Islam is truly an ending religion, in it God and his Messenger teach u everything in life beginning from what to do if u visit someone until what to say if u go to the bathroom....!! it just never forgets any earthly thing a man needs...

But my friend, if u have noticed or read b4 that a translation of The Koran is not The Koran, God mentions many times in the Koran that he has sent it in Arabic, a great part of the miracle of the Koran is in it's language, The Koran was sent to the Arab ppl who were great in their language and they wrote great poems and literature so when The Koran came by a non-reading Messenger, there faces really turned black!

I indeed have much interesting literature to send u, maybe to ur e-mail later

but for now try to read about Islam and maybe u can begin with Islam.com

u ppl who doubt Muhammad have no true knowledge...

u cannot doubt his manners, since he is God's last Messenger..

about his marriage, yes, he married many women but not for joy since he got old when married the third woman in his life ever, he couldn't have sex then, u can't say it was for joy...
if u look carefully, he used to marry divorced & old women, and whom husbands have died in war so as to settle them, since he couldn't have sex anymore then

when he married the 9 year old Aisha, it was his dearest partner's request, as I said he couldn't have sex anymore, the reason Abu Bakr (her father) offered him to marry her was that he wanted his daughter to be living in The Prophet's home since her childhood so to be a great great woman in the future

Muhammad was not a lier, which his enemies agreed on as they used to call him "The Truthful The Honest", and Muhammad didn't write the Koran, he was a non-reading man!!
He couldn't read or write, can u imagine??

In The Koran it is said: The Romans are vanquished,


[30.3]

In a near land,
and they,
after being vanquished,
shall overcome,


[30.4]

Within a few years.
Allah's is the command before and after;
and on that day the believers shall rejoice,


[30.5]

With the help of Allah;
He helps whom He pleases;
and He is the Mighty,
the Merciful;

it isn't really a few years but in Arabic it is called "bide" which means a number from 3 to 9, and indeed The Romans have beaten The Persians later after 7 years, while the circumstances didn't show their victory at all!!!

can anyone know that?? or at least whould, if he was the one who wrote the Koran, take the risk that he might say fals things and the Romans won't win, so then his religion would completely fall!!


also Muhammad was the only Prophet who said that Judaism and Christianity are Heavenly Religions from God, why would he do that if he has invented the religion for his benefit??

why someone get hit, kicked out of country, take his money, torture him, hit him with stones till ppl couldn't c his face, and for a false religion as u ppl say!?!?!?

if he was a lier, when his enemies told him we r going to make u our leader and the richest among us if u leave this religion, he would have accepted, but he didn't, he swore in the name of God that he won't ever do what Jonah did!!

if u want to know who Muhammad was, ponder upon this:


These words were said by Prophet Muhammad Ibn Abdullah (570-633 A.C) the prophet of the heavenly religion of Islam. These words were said by him to his army.

"Do not deceive, and do not rancor, and do not betray, and do not portray (with an enemy body), and do not kill a young child or an old man or
a woman, and do not cut a plam or burn it, and do not cut a fruitful tree, and do not slay an ewe or a cow or a camel unless for eating. And you will pass by people who emptied themselves in the hermitages (he means the worshipping Christians and Jews) so leave them and what they emptied themselves for. And you will pass by people who (will) bring you containers with kinds of food in it, so if you ate from them a thing after a thing so mention the name of God on it.
GO ON WITH THE NAME OF GOD."


How merciful, peaceful and tolerant was that Prophet! He thought of the enemy as his brothers or friends, he wanted no harm for peaceful people.
He was really a non-repeated man. May peace and prayers be upon Muhammad.


Is there any leader in all the history who told his army words like that before a WAR with an ENEMY??

quote:

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Originally posted by BIN LADEN:
In The Koran it is said: The Romans are vanquished....it isn't really a few years but in Arabic it is called "bide" which means a number from 3 to 9, and indeed The Romans have beaten The Persians later after 7 years, while the circumstances didn't show their victory at all!!!

can anyone know that?? or at least whould, if he was the one who wrote the Koran, take the risk that he might say fals things and the Romans won't win, so then his religion would completely fall!!

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Were the Romans specifically mentioned?
If he was the one who wrote the Koran, why did he include an irrelevant piece of political prophecy?

Jewdiesm is one of the oldest religions in the world. It came before christianity and islam. Every religion is based on Jewdiesm and therefore Jewdiesm is the true religion. (I know that Im a horable speller)

P.S. Im not trying to diss any religion just pruve my point

Fox I wish I understood half of what you write.

quote:

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Topic: Islam vs Christianity - which is the true religion

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"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than dreamt of in your philosophy."

- William Shakespeare, Hamlet

Hello bin ladan or who ever u are. Im not trying to couse trouble im only trying to understand ur religion more (not that i want 2 convert into islam, no affence). Ive heard that muslims dont treat women as well as men. Is that true?

oh yea and another thing bin ladan! one more questian! who wrote your chumash, bible, holy book r what ever of islam?

please take more english classes Artz. And the name of the book is the Koran. Maybe a few comparitive religion classes would help you as well.

quote:

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Originally posted by govinda:
Fox I wish I understood half of what you write.

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So do I...

govinda!

Jokes aside, hang in there, I�ll be back for some revelations!

Did you, by the way, check your e-mail lately, or did something get lost?!

FoxLeonard

oh sorry Fox that address won't accept anything from places it doesn't know.
this one works: govindas_dice@hotmail.com

i'll update my profile

Peace be upon you and God's mercy and his blessings:
that's what our Prophet taught us, that's the greeting of Islam

what a perfect religion which doesn't even forget how to greet ur ppl


about what my friend, Nox said that: Islam is a way of life!
Sorry, but if u meant that Islam is nothing but a way of life, then
u are greatly mistaken, coz a religion like Buddhism or Satanism is
a way of life... some may say: and does it differ?
Indeed it does, a religion is a message that deals with the belief in God with proofs, and that deals with the way to thank god and greatify him, and deals with ways of worshipping God, and that must be supported by a Prophet who miracles ppl, and with a Holy Text to tells ppl how to know their God and how to worship the almighty creator, which leads to teach ppl how to live their lives.
Christianity isn't THE perfect religion, bcoz when God sent Jesus he knew it wasn't time yet for Jesus to be last Prophet, yet God was determined to end his message to ppl on Earth by sending our master Muhammad (PBUH) with The Holy Koran, the exact words of God which were written on The Conserved Board centuries b4 the creation of Adam!!
Islam is THE perfect religion, and from it being perfect it greatly deals with the way of ppl's life...

Also, I say Christianity is not a way of life, it indeed is
a Heavenly religion sent from God, but it was send to memorize
The Jews of their God and of his right on them, that makes it not
a complete message, while Islam was sent to all the ppl of the Earth, that's why Muhammad worked hard to in spreading God's words to all ppl of the Earth, from East to West, and from North to South...

and DaHC, what u said that u won't be: sitting on my dresser next to my "Christians Rule" poster and Buddy Christ figurine (which I am getting off the internet).
u must first know that God prohibited on Muslims drawing pictures of Prophets so as to not happen what happened to Christians who has gotten Jesus as their worshipped figure.
u must also believe that the Christian teaches are not the exact teaches of God whom he gave to Jesus (PBUH), but changes has gotten on this religion on ages, and has changed the idea of Jesus as God's messenger, and made him God himself!! Even a young kid won't believe that God has lowered his great place as the Almighty Creator and has gotten himself in the body of a man (which isn't the most handsome man, or the richest man, or anything that makes him better than any other person) and has gotten himself hit, kicked, slapped, spit in his face, and at last crucified!!! And I say God is high, and he has highed himself that what aberranced ppl say.
And I challenge any Christian to get me a passage from their Bible itself that Jesus tells his ppl "I am God (or God's son), WORSHIP ME"
or didn't Jesus make himself clear?? I know Jesus is God's messenger and he is higher than that!


margeri26: quote:
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(If you care to read the real version of the Koran, you'll find out how much Muslims are supposed to hate Jews and Christians)

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there isn't nothing called the real version of the Koran!! do u say God's words have versions!!! God's word is exact and never changes!!
And The Koran is here opened for anybody to read it, and I dare anybody to get me a verse which says Muslims should hate Jews or Christians, but on the contrary, The Koran says Muslims should take Jews & Christians as partners, friends and good neighbours, and that they should prefer them on any other religious ppl, and that they shall ask them about God and The Bible, and it is said that God sent Moses & Jesus with right, and that The Torah & The Bible are Heavenly Books from God, and who doesn't believe in that isn't a Muslim!!

I don't know from where did u bring what u said, indeed I reassure that The Koran is a book that is the same in the whole world,
a letter in it cannot be changed, on the contrary of Christianity which has different versions of Jesus's life-story as what's called Matthew's bible, John's Bible... etc. There is one and only one Koran, as there is one and only one powerful God!

MSW2006: quote:
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after all I won't trust a rich man who walks out of a cave, believing he has seen God.

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What?? Are u refering to Muhammad?? first, Muhammad wasn't rich at all, he had no need in this life, he looked forward for life in Paradise with his God, and if u talk about trust, he is the most who should be trusted: didn't his ppl always call him "The Truthful The Honest"!? He didn't lie on ppl, would he lie on God!?!?
And Muhammad never said he saw God, if u mean the story of how Muhammad became a messenger, it refers that Muhammad always went to The Cave of Hera' so as to pray that The Creator of this Universe would lead him to the right path, and then he met The Archangel Gabriel, who told him to read in the name of his God, who created the universe, and created man, and taught ppl to write, and taught what he didn't know!!!
I say little knowledge u have!!


Also I wanted to tell nz man that it was indeed smart from him to choose Christianity and Islam, coz they are the religions that have got the largest number of worshippers in the world .`)


Enough for now as I might have been long on u,
but I still have lots to say....

SpaceFalcon, u must know a Messenger from God doesn't get rid of his wife and son, but God plans, and what God plans is indeed the better plan, coz there was hate between Sarah and Hagar, which God cured by separating them, also he wanted Ismael to be the result of a miracle so that ppl won't doubt him being a Prophet, God saved him, and under his feet in the burning desert, he exploded out a big water pond which is until now found in Mecca, and I've tasted it's delicious water, myself!

And u must know that Jews were not true worshippers, coz God has chosen them from upon all ppl, but they still were not right with themselves on their worship!!

We see when Moses told them go and fight, they paniced and said: Go u and ur God and fight, we r going to sit here and wait!! We also c when Moses left them to get teachings from God, they aberranced and they worshipped a Golden Cow!!!
or u might also tell me why aren't there more than 15 millions Jews on this Earth, while they are more than 1400 million Muslims??
I say coz they didn't walk on the right path of God

And Islam and Christianity are not expansions of Judaism, they are continuity to it, they differ in the rules of it, but they don't differ in the concept that "There is no God but Allah"

And who r more: Satanics or Jews??

first of all spacefalcon dont tell me to take classes about other religions when u dont know enough about your own religion. second of all ben laden ppl make mistakes even jews. G-d asked all the cultures in the world if they want G-ds Tora and they all asked whats in it first and then didn't want it. But when G-d asked the jews they said that first they will do then they will hear. They knew how pure the Tora was (and still is ofcourse) and therefore it didn't even matter how many rules there are in the Tora.

nz man, u must know Bin Laden isn't my hero, coz someone who kills innocents isn't a hero, it's just a name to express how Muslims are opressed all around the world and to express how do I say "NO" to the American tyranny, and if the name offences, I'll change it now...
and yes The West thinks we bad, coz they don't know us!!
and sorry Islam wasn't founded by Muhammad even if supposed, coz if u say that then on the samem thread u must say Judaism was founded by Moses, and Christianity was founded by Jesus, and in that time u would be doubting God!!

And hahaha, Allah is the name of God in an old Moon worshipping religion!?!? Do u know what's Allah, Allah is just a translation for the name God in Arabic, just like Yahweh is his Jewish name, if u read the Arabic translation of the Christian Bible, the word God is written as Allah!!

u said: demons are kicked out in the name of Christ Jesus. Never has anyone done that in the name of Allah...

sorry, but u just have no knowledge in that subject, coz here in the Middle East, Muslim Scientists kick out demon possessed ppl indeed in the name of Allah and by reading verses from The Koran!!

And also there isn't a single verse in The Koran taken from The Old Testament!! The Koran just agrees with Judaism and agrees that God sent his Messiah to proseltyze ppl!! which I can see nothing strange in that!!
BTW, The Old and The New Testaments was not translated in Arabic in the sixth century if u know that!!! So how can Muhammad take info. from them?? Also, The Koran says stories that happened centuries earlier about the ppl of 'Aad' & 'Thamoud' whom God killed them all for being blasphemous, and that ain't mentioned in any holy book!!
I say Muhammad came with things pointed to The Arabs, that's why his Message is all supposed to warn Arabic and tell them stories they knew but forgot, how could he exactly know these incidents himself!!
In The Koran God also talks about The Forces of Nature and the incidents yet to happen, and comes with great information of Physics, Chemistry & Biology, Koran has also a great Miracle for ppl of Mathematics!! How can after all of that u say Muhammad wrote the Koran himself!?
Also Muhammad cannot be the writer of The Koran ever, the man couldn't read or write!!!!! He was never interested in Arabic language, poems or literature, which The Koran came as a Miracle to the Arab ppl who were very great in those things that deals with Arabic language, The Koran is written in a very beautiful Arabic way, it has got a very nice way of sounding that it touches ur heart, the ppl of The Arabic Island tried to write a lot of verses that similizes the Koran, but they failed coz God said in Passage 17

"Say: If (all) men and jinn should combine together to bring the like of this Quran, they could not bring the like of it, though some of them were aiders of others"
Muhammad is indeed very high that what u say, nz man!

Also quote that: "There is no such thing as moderate Islam and extreme Islam; there is Islam, and then there are extremists

Suicide bombers in the name of Allah, Allah is innocent from them, not that they blow themselves, but that they blow innocents with them, but when it comes to someone who attacks army men by blowing himself if he has no way else to fight them, I see no shame in that!

And it was indeed very awful from u, nz man, to say that Osama Bin Laden manifest Islam, couldn't u say that Abu Bakr Al-Seddeek, Omar Ibn El-Khattab, Utham Bin Affan, Ali Bin Abi Taleb manifest Islam???
of course u couldn't, coz u don't know these ppl, who come just afer our Prophet as the greatest Muslims to ever come, ponder upon how Merciful, Peaceful, Fair, Generous & Kind they were, and how can they not be so, they were taught by our master Muhamamd (Peace be upon him and Allah's mercy and his blessings)

And anyone who tries to kill The Pope, he isn't a Muslim, coz he tried to kill a Christian BROTHER either it's a Pope or not.
And YES, Christians are the brothers of Muslims, God told us that in The Koran and we believe in God and what he says!!

Also, I already replied in previous thread on this topic about Muhammad's wives!


nz man: quote:
--------------------------------------
Believe me I know about the Crusades and how wrong the "so called" Christians did to alot of people. Butchering umarmed people not right and I'll apologise on their behalf. No one is perfect you see but the God that we worship is. Does that make sense? And though him Christ Jesus we are make perfect so as to enter heaven with God and be with him!

Well I don't blame you guys for being angry at the western world and Christians but as the sayings go "Two wrongs don't make a right".

--------------------------------------------

Very Very very right!! actionally the only right in this reply u wrote

But u must know God always victories Muslims, that's why I'm keeping still as I believe his victory is still to come, he broke us victory on The Crusades b4 and he will make us victory on the unjust cruel U.S.A, I don't mean the ppl of U.S.A, I mean the government, as Bush himself said "It's a Crusade war" which intends that Muslims reply for it, which I don't blame Bin Laden on it, but I tell him "u should have asked Allah to give u patience, bcoz patience is a lot better than killing hundreds of Christian brothers"

First of all i wan't to welcome
Ussama bin Laden from egypt
in fact the muslims in totse are so rare
we are now (i think)
3 of us
my self
you and tarik Mujahid who doesn't post here
any more this makes any post dealing with islam so unfair an including mostly
anti islam views
let me introduce my self i'm from morocco
and my role in totse is to defend palestinians , muslims and all the opressed by the wild globalisation regardless
of their relligion and you will be surprised
by the non muslim anti zionists here

secondly i wan't to give some explanation to non muslims

islam dating is based on moon calendar but this doesn't mean we worship moon
in koran god stated that pagans worshiped
stones statuts ,planets and stars so how can
we do like them

concerning the roman prediction in koran
arab called romans the bizances who ruled in the eastern part of the old roman empire
(turkey + syria +palestine and lebanon+parts of irak ) at the time there was a rivality
between the persians and the bizance
and in the first round persians won
in mekka in arabia pagans where very happy since they supported persians and hated mohamed with whom they found a similarity with cristian orthodox romans of bizance
so alah told muslims who supported romans at that time because they were people who believed in god that romans will win and the prediction realised ten years later
i read somewhere that many christian historians reverted to islam when they knew this and i will give you names later when i will check my old books

you never answered my questian. By the quran(is that how u spell it?) is a muslim man aloud to beat his wife? If so then why would he be aloud to? And do u think a life of a muslim is more important then a life of someone that isn't muslim?

I could be wrong, but I don't think it said anything about men being allowed to beat their wives. It did, however, say that women are the property of men, like their fields, and so are allowed to tilth them as such. "Tilth" means tilled earth, or to cultivate the land, which seems appropriately vague for a religious text.

aahh interesting

OK, artzy. we have answered ur question several times, and i provided you with two links that give you what you rae looking for.

Tiger, if you understood islam you would change your mind, because what you hear in your country are lies about islam, iff you read about it more thoroughly, from islamic sources , you would not attack it, but probably defend it, if you see muslims acting improperly, don't blame islam blame the people themselves as they are not acting in an islamic manner, there are many muslims around the world who wear the title of a muslim but do not actually act islamically.
Tell me if that still does not answer your question so i spend more time answwring it and clarifying my point further.

To artzy:
i will post these links again to answer ur question of whether it is allowed to beat ur wife, remember these are two different views so read them both:


http://www.answering-christianity.com/beating_no.htm
http://www.answering-christianity.com/beating_yes.htm

"But Allah Almighty also on the other hand, didn't say to gently tap (i.e., "(lightly)") them when it's time to physically punish them as some Muslim scholars like to make it appear." this is something that was said in one of the sites u gave me. Well, why would a man be aloud to hit his wife (which i don't apruve of no matter what reason)? what if a man cheats on his wife (which happens more offten then a wife cheating on her husband)?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Blue-Rock:
Tiger, if you understood islam you would change your mind, because what you hear in your country are lies about islam

---

I agree. And this messageboard isn't exactly full of Muslim scholars either. It's so hard to find good information these days.

quote:

---

iff you read about it more thoroughly, from islamic sources , you would not attack it, but probably defend it, if you see muslims acting improperly, don't blame islam blame the people themselves as they are not acting in an islamic manner, there are many muslims around the world who wear the title of a muslim but do not actually act islamically.

---

I didn't set out to try and attack Islam, but just to balance the inane subjectivity of arguments that were put forth by others before me.

And i think there is now a more-or-less general consensus that people will be people, regardless of what they call their faith

Arzy, the Quran clearly shows wife beating is allowed [4:34], but the real issue is not the beating itself, but how this activity originated. Why don't we make like a lawyer, and ask some serious questions?....for example:

Why does the Muslim "Allah" have to tell men to beat their wives before seeking family council? What was "Allah" really thinking?

Why does "Allah" include a command to beat wives in the Quran, but does not command men to love their wives?

What kind of foundational relationship is this establishing between a husband, and wife? I believe that husbands, and wives have the right to disagree, and even refuse to do certain "NON-SINFUL" actions. We each have the right to make personal choices in our lives.

How does Muhammad's statement that women lack self-control, and placing men over them effect a woman's self esteem, and her relationship with her husband, and family?

Why does Muhammad place women under man by using the isiom meaning women are in-between slave, and free?

What is the social, and phychological significance for women in the long run, knowing they are physically subjected to men, and can be beaten by their husbands, if they begin to suspect that their wives are disobedient to them?

Islam establishes a wife's position with regards to her husband....he is her custodian. He takes care of her, and she obeys him. If the wife persists in disobedience to her husband's requests, the Quran commands husbands to beat their wives. This is a brutal way to subject women. As in Saudi, and other places, it causes women to become almost de-humanized. BY establishing that a woman is not able to control herself, placing men as "mangers" of women, and further even commanding men to beat women, women are relegated to a servant's position in life. Like a kept prized animal, women are people who are to be treated kindly, but severely disciplined when they get out of line. There is no way to justify this degrading, institutionalized, physical, and psychological abuse of women allowed, and commanded by Islam. Islam is not the solution, it is the problem.

Obviously, Islamic wife beating is a problem. It is much bigger than outsiders think, because may Muslim women are unwilling, or unable to get help. Many Muslim women accept this abuse as "Allah's will", consequently, they will not go for help, because that would be a greater degree of rebellion towards their husbands, and God. This is a tragic dilemma for these unfortunate women. They are trapped between an abusive husband, and a god that allows the abuse.

One more thing Arzy....when you strike someone "lightly", without inflicting "pain", how is this considered a "beating"?

quote:

---

Originally posted by artzy1989:
"But Allah Almighty also on the other hand, didn't say to gently tap (i.e., "(lightly)") them when it's time to physically punish them as some Muslim scholars like to make it appear." this is something that was said in one of the sites u gave me. Well, why would a man be aloud to hit his wife (which i don't apruve of no matter what reason)? what if a man cheats on his wife (which happens more offten then a wife cheating on her husband)?

---

Ok a man isn't allowed to hit his wife severly either to do any damage, the purpose of hiting is to make your wife aware that she is doing something wrong.
And if a man cheats on his wife he gets killed , does that make you happy?lol

quote:

---

Originally posted by Volar:
Arzy, the Quran clearly shows wife beating is allowed [4:34], but the real issue is not the beating itself, but how this activity originated. Why don't we make like a lawyer, and ask some serious questions?....for example:

Why does the Muslim "Allah" have to tell men to beat their wives before seeking family council? What was "Allah" really thinking?

Why does "Allah" include a command to beat wives in the Quran, but does not command men to love their wives?

What kind of foundational relationship is this establishing between a husband, and wife? I believe that husbands, and wives have the right to disagree, and even refuse to do certain "NON-SINFUL" actions. We each have the right to make personal choices in our lives.

How does Muhammad's statement that women lack self-control, and placing men over them effect a woman's self esteem, and her relationship with her husband, and family?

Why does Muhammad place women under man by using the isiom meaning women are in-between slave, and free?

What is the social, and phychological significance for women in the long run, knowing they are physically subjected to men, and can be beaten by their husbands, if they begin to suspect that their wives are disobedient to them?

Islam establishes a wife's position with regards to her husband....he is her custodian. He takes care of her, and she obeys him. If the wife persists in disobedience to her husband's requests, the Quran commands husbands to beat their wives. This is a brutal way to subject women. As in Saudi, and other places, it causes women to become almost de-humanized. BY establishing that a woman is not able to control herself, placing men as "mangers" of women, and further even commanding men to beat women, women are relegated to a servant's position in life. Like a kept prized animal, women are people who are to be treated kindly, but severely disciplined when they get out of line. There is no way to justify this degrading, institutionalized, physical, and psychological abuse of women allowed, and commanded by Islam. Islam is not the solution, it is the problem.

Obviously, Islamic wife beating is a problem. It is much bigger than outsiders think, because may Muslim women are unwilling, or unable to get help. Many Muslim women accept this abuse as "Allah's will", consequently, they will not go for help, because that would be a greater degree of rebellion towards their husbands, and God. This is a tragic dilemma for these unfortunate women. They are trapped between an abusive husband, and a god that allows the abuse.

One more thing Arzy....when you strike someone "lightly", without inflicting "pain", how is this considered a "beating"?

---

That surah means if the men do beat their wives then they are not allowed to inflict any damage, just enough pain to make her realise you are not happy with her, because you already told her twice before how you feel and that she is doing wrong to you. I think this is doing good to the wife, since the man is not leaving her to live alone and raise the kids by herself like in what many people do in the non-muslim world.

You may think that we are all stupid and think everything cannot be stopped or change, but all mighty allah has given us the power to choose what to do i our lives, and if a woma feels she is being beaten unfairly thens he can go to an islamic court that would punish the man for his actions (severly punish him).

So men don't usually beat their wives more than they do in your society, so don't try to mae us sound bad like yourself, we try in our lives to prefect ourselvs as much as possible to get closer to allah.

In islam men are supposed to love and care for their wives so i dont know where you got thi BS from, go read somethings about islam then come back because im not an expert so if you want to genuinly ask these questions there are many sources to read from.

Allah does not allow us to abuse our wives, beat her once to know she is doing wrong thats all.

And volar when you are talking to me don't give me examples from saudia arabia or other wahhabi sources, the wahhabis are honestly primitive and uneducated. Read about REAL islam.

Peace out
May allah blees you all

"And if a man cheats on his wife he gets killed , does that make you happy?lol"
Yes, that deos make me happey.

"Allah does not allow us to abuse our wives, beat her once to know she is doing wrong thats all."
That doesn't make me happy. If she cheats on her husband then she should be taken to court or he could just leave her. If she loves another man she could go to him rather then stay with the guy she cheated on. But he should not even beat her lightly without her permission. A woman is not a dog. The ambarrisment she feels after getting cought is enough to "teach her a lesson".
Oh, and America also has muslims living in it.

Well, Volar, God's enemy, u do not say on Muhammad's followers lecherous u Islamophobic lunatic

Muhammad's Companions were the best ppl on Earth, they believed him when ppl doubted him, and they had a target which was to make the right flow on this damned ball of dirt...

They wasn't after sex or anything, they just wanted God to be satisfied on them...
And the idea of having sex in Paradise is undoubtable coz it's a reward for good ppl, and it's known if someone had adultery or illegal sexual lust, and he then entered Paradise by any mean, his girls would get less, u get what I say?
So having girls in ur Paradise or "Hour Ain" (which means beautiful-eyed) is a fact that would make us look forward for Paradise, and try not to commit any sexual sins for that issue...

Well, if God tells u not to commit adultery, then what do anyone expect as a reward?
Of course, a better girl to legally have sex with

or when God tells u not to drink wine? What do anyone expect as a reward?
What about a better wine which do not make u get drunk

so everything God prohibits us from, he compensates for a better thing in Paradise

Not like what some Christians believe that Paradise would be a place for spirits who would just have to praise God all their immortal coming life in Paradise!!!!!!!!! While their religion didn't even speak about any description of Paradise, but The Koran spoke a lot about Paradise and it's description, but althought Allah said "I've prepared to my worshippers what no eye ever saw, or an ear ever heard, or what ever came to a human's mind"... Aren't we all eager??

And also, u do not talk shit and say women have the rights to watch their men have sex in Paradise or anything!! That was never said, and also it isn't a fact that a woman goes to paradise with her husband or anything, another humourous fact or what?? I DON'T THINK SO


About the Incident of Falseness as Allah named it about Aisha and Safwan, umm... actionally u well related the incident, so no need to re-relate it

to ur questions: Didn't Aisha's slaves realize that the howdah was empty?

- Well, that question would better be asked to the slaves themselves (since Islam prohibited slavery, I'd rather call them guards coz that's what they really were), but about the 'howdaj' it is known that's it was a very big wooden box or what similes, it was supposed to wheigh more than 120 kg, so when distributed on 4 strong guards to just arise it on the camel's back, it isn't a sure fact that they feel that the howdaj is 120 kg wheight and not 170 (+Aisha's weight) :Physical theory says "Small wheight when distributed upon different matters might eventually disappear"
Also, I c no point in this question, coz the guards have nothing to do with the issue!
Also, they do not have the right to put their sight on The Prophet's wife in any position, so they couldn't look in the howdaj and c if she was there or no, also it was supposed that the whole army which was thousands have gathered, and it wasn't a possibility that they would doubt that she didn't come...

And also all must know Aisha had no previous relation with Safwan or any other man!
And also God protects his Prophets from scandals so he sends them wives (either good or bad) who wouldn't commit a sin that would make a scandals to The Messenger himself, so anyone must believe she was innocent

Second quest.: Couldn't Safwan ride faster to get Aisha to the army?

Well, it was known that Aisha ahs waited for awhile until Safwan who coincidantally got late too, and noticed her... So the army should have been quite far at that moment
Also it was known armies travel on highest velocity possible bcoz travel on horses and camels was slow compared to now a days and could take weeks, so they must hurry, so Safwan couldn't reach them.

Also, no point in this question

Third quest.: Isn't the duty of the rear-guard to get to the army in time, and warn them of an attack?

Well, I c also no point, but what if they just came from a Ghazwah, and also he wasn't the only rear-guard, they were tens, also men do mistakes and do not by all means always get in time!!


Fourth and most important quote.: However, it's imperative to understand that the point of this story is NOT innocence, or guilt of Aisha, but the way these verses were revealed to Muhammad. It seems that whenever Muhammad was in need of help, Allah was there personally at his service, providing him with whatever be needed, from finding him virgins to giving him excuse to kill people.

Well, u must first get the fact that Muhammad never said Allah personally spoke to him (although it isn't a far thing on God's Messenger) and he never gave himself the gift of Moses who spoke to God face to face, but he always said that whenever Allah wanted to tell him anything, he sends him The Archangel Gabriel responsible for Prophets' Revelations upon ages.

And if God didn't provide his Messenger of what he needed when he is need of help, whom would God provide else??

Finding virgins and giving excuses to kill ppl??? I'll skip that part, God is higher and higher than to do anything like that!!

About the verses revealed to Muhammad (PBUH) that proves Aisha's innocence, which any Muslim believes (although it doesn't interest anyone) it says: In the Surah An-Nur (The Light) Allah - praised and thanked - says: "Surely they who concocted the falseness are a party from among you.
Do not regard it an evil to you; nay, it is good for you.
Every man of them shall have what he has earned of sin; and (as for) him who took upon himself the main part thereof, he shall have a grievous chastisement.

Why did not the believing men and the believing women,
when you heard it, think well of their own people,
and say: This is an evident falsehood?

Why did they not bring four witnesses of it?
But as they have not brought witnesses they are liars before Allah.

And were it not for Allah's grace upon you and His mercy in this world and the hereafter, a grievous chastisement would certainly have touched you on account of the discourse which you entered into.

When you received it with your tongues and spoke with your mouths what you had no knowledge of,
and you deemed it an easy matter while with Allah it was grievous.

And why did you not, when you heard it, say: It does not beseem us that we should talk of it; glory be to Thee! this is a great calumny?

Allah admonishes you that you should not return to the like of it ever again if you are believers.

And Allah makes clear to you the communications; and Allah is Knowing, Wise.

Surely (as for) those who love that scandal should circulate respecting those who believe, they shall have a grievous chastisement in this world and the hereafter; and Allah knows, while you do not know. [The Koran: 24.11-19]


A last fact, Muhammad had no interest in the innocene of Aisha, and wether she was innocent or not, The Prophet was with the suggestion that tells he divorces her, but God was there for him, so as not to let The Prophet be unjust to anyone, and revealed to him the truth upon Gabriel(PBUH)

ummm... Prisons in Islam, if u stick anything to Islam, it must be in the period of The Prophet's life and The Age of The Legal Caliphes only, coz after that anything done should be sticken to the Muslim who he is afterall a sinning human, coz now the governments do not follow the rules of God, and torturing suspects is not an Islamic rule, but it was taught to nations by the highest Blasphemy, The U.S. itself

Smart from Volar to say these rules are just a small example, although they r the only rules known in that issue:

Stealing: punished by hand amputation (TRUE)
Murder: punished by neck amputation (TRUE)
Adultery: punished by public flogging (TRUE)
Drinking: punished by 40 or 80 lashes (TRUE)
Resisting Islam: punished by death, crucifixion or the cutting off of the hands and feet (FALSE)

No rule in resisting Islam is put in that matter, but in the other issues, I do not know why would anyone rather to follow man-made rules and not follow God's rules, God's rules are strict and strong, and they throw fear in the hearts of criminals, but I do not know why would anyone feel sorry for a thief or an adulterous or a drunk asshole or a non-hearted murderer!!! I c no point in that
Also, I must point that statistics prove that Saudi Arabia (the only Arab country which applies Islamic rules) has the least number of thefts and murders in the whole world!! Common fear?? Well, that's what criminals need!

Allah says in The Holy Koran in the Surat Al-Fat-h (The Victory): "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are harsh on the Infidels, (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration. This is their similitude in the Taurat; and their similitude in the Gospel is: like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward [48.29]

Clear verse that says Muslims should be compassionate amongst each other and other good ppl, but harsh on Infidels and on Criminals, and so is God compassionate on believers and harsh on Infidels and Criminals.

quote: Under our system in the United States, there should be no discrimination among citizens bases on sex, color, religion or race. Would Islam treat men, and women equally when:

hahahahaha, go to Guantanamo and c by yourself the justice and freedom of U.S. (Religious oppression)

Remember Rodney King and his likes?? (Racist oppression)

America is the biggest dictator country ever, they invade lands indirectly, they kill, torture, steal Muslim nations, their resources and their lands... They just wanna hit a Muslim country coz it searches for weapons to protect itself, but when it comes to Israel, "NO, they r Jews, they r brothers, let them have as much Nuclears as they want!!!!!"

And other many examples, but God prohibits all of that, in one old Battle, The Muslims brought many war prisoners with them, one of them was The Prophet's uncle Al-Abbas (who was still didn't join Islam), Muhammad loved Al-Abbas much, so when they imprisoned him and they tied him (they tied The Prohet's uncle!!! There is no favoring in Islam, Muhammad didn't say that's my uncle, leave him or anything) they tightened the rope, so The Prophet (by heavenly means) at night heard his uncle's moanings, so he couldn't sleep, a man asked him about that, so he told him "Al-Abbas's moanings are in my ear!!", so the man went secretly to the prison and loosened the tie on Al-Abbas, so when he came back, he found the Prophet going to sleep, so he asked him about the reason he went to sleep, he said "Al-Abbas's moanings have silenced!!!" So the man didn't believe himself for this miraculous incident, so he told the Prophet "u know what, when I heard u, I went to the prison secretly and loosened his tie" So The Prophet anxiously replied "And did u do the same with the other prisoners!?!?!" The Man said "No!!", Muhammad said "Now GO BACK AND DO THE SAME WITH ALL OF THEM!!"

That's what I call no discrimination and no favoring, that's Islam, not what u name Muslim governemts, or what u say about ur Divided States, God's system is the best, and God's Messenger is the best upon creatures, he cared about Unbelievers who fought him in order to kill him in battle, he equalized them with his dear uncle!!! Peace be upon u, Muhammad

First I must clear that VOLAR is a LIAR, and fact slanting, so don't take any word from him unless u c it's critic


Look Volar, u must know that the fact Islam was very general, and that Muslim preserve many of The Prophet's sayings gives Islam a unique favor upon other religions which do not go to subjects like these, and just lead to talk about God and his worship only, but Islam came putting rules upon everything that concerns man, and clearing facts so that gives ppl like u a chance for doubting, and if other heavenly religions really leaded to putting rules like these, they wouldn't differ from Islamic rules (only slightly due to means of suiting the age and the ppl) coz God's word is exact and everlasting and non-changing, but hey, God knows his creations better than anyone else, and when Allah says that men are superior to women, I c no shame... Coz this doesn't mean it gives men the right to take natural women's rights from them, or the right to obligate them to anything... But being superior to women is a natural thing we see everyday, well, the elements of superiorism in life are in means of Power (men are noticably much stronger than women), money (men are always richer than women in means of work), and contactibility (men can be very contactable, but women cannot due to their feminine nature)...
I mean men go to wars, men are supposed to bring their women all their needs (which is a great right provided from Islam to women as Islam didn't prohibit women from working, but Islam gave them the right to rest and not work while it obligated men to work and provide their wives with their needs)
Also, we must know The Prophet's first wife Khadijah was a working woman, and she had her own commerce and she had her own separate income, so Islam didn't prohibit women to go out and work or anything, but they must follow deciency as they mustn't go out half naked or in tight clothes, or go out to walk with every man she knows and stay for laughing or for amusement....
Special to dear artzy about hitting women, this isn't supposed to be painful or violent hitting, but only refinementing hitting, only in case that the man and the women still want to keep their marriage, but the women is not walking the right path (I mean she have been acting suspiciously, I mean caught with a man... u know), only in that case refinementing hitting is allowed, and if the woman doesn't want her husband anymore, hitting isn't allowed, but a divorce is obligated on the man, and the woman could leave him by her own will!!! (Did any religon give women a right like that??)
[And yes a life of a Muslim is more important that a life of a non-muslim, coz it's a life of a message, worship and continuous praising of God, and being eager to his satisfaction, not a life of amusement and earthly needs]
Women's work is allowed, The Prophet's wife used to work and also my mother is a working woman, she is a doctor, just because womn are complete creatures as Islam stated, and they have the right to be doctors, lawyers, & engineers... etc As well, they have complete control on domestic means
Also Islam didn't tell women to cover their faces, Islam said that all body should be covered in public, except the face, the hands & the feet!!
So I doubt the groom cannot be able to c his bride!! (VERY WEIRD THINGS U SAY)


About the other fact said that Muslims are said not to befriend Jews or Christians, that's very wrong from u, Islam says that Muslims should rather Jews & Christians on other races, and that they should befriend them and that they should ask them in religious matters and that they should exchange greeting whenever they meet and that they should be good neighbours!!

Maybe u got that wrong fact from an Islamophobic source or u just got it from a bad interpretation to The Koran as most of the verses u quote mislead.
Coz The Koran is written in a hard Arabic language, it was a miraculous book to The Arabs who were the best in their language, so when interpretated by foreign Muslims scientist who are mostly not very good in Arabic language, clear mistakes happens... And I have books which compares Verses before and after translation and the mislead clears much in many Verses...

In the translated verse [5.51] that misleaded u it says: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and: They are but friends to each other

but when rightly interpretaed by my own good language: it is said Do not take the Jews and Christians as 'awliya' as written in The Koran in Arabic which means protectors and war parteners but friends in Arabic means 'asdeka', so when badly translated, u know...


----The Quran imposes "Jizya" (tribute tax) on Christians and Jews that will be collected only from them, and not from Muslims---

Well, that's in case of Muslim countries only, coz whem Muslim used to open new lands, they must put defence lines on it and they must form an army that protects these new lands from upon ppl who would join Islam from this new land itself, but Muslims cannot trust the Jews and Christians in military issues which are very suspectible and sensetive, so as a result to their exempt from military serve, they where asked to pay what equals now 100$ a year, only to be collected from able ppl, cannot be collected from women, old ppl, teenagers, poor ppl or any other individual that this small money amount would affect him... And I c no shame in that, but I c love and pace and trust!!


----Muhammad says that a Muslim may not be killed if he kills a non-Muslim----

Muhammad never said that, u must quote a Hadith from sahih Bukhari or Muslim, to prove ur idea


And The Koran isn't like The Old Testament at all, u better put a comparison and prove ur self literally, until then just SHUT UR BIG MOUTH
And The Koran isn't barabaric...

And all the verses u quote and The Hadiths u said prove nothing, these r rules between a man and his wife, and the punishes mentioned are only to be done upon mutinous women!!!

---She is forbidden to spend any money without the permission of her husband, and it includes giving food to the needy or feast to friends---

Muhammad never said that, I said u only quote Hadiths from Bukhari & Muslim, Tabari is not 100% trusted

All others Hadiths u said are clear rules which do not take any right from the women, and u should also see the rules affecting men according to their wives...!!


And a last word, Freedom is not walking naked, but Freedom is respect, if u have freedom u must rule it with respect and refinement, but not like Americans which believes having sex as much as u want and walking naked is freedom
USA decieves it ppl by giving them sexual freedom, but other means of freedom, 'HELL NO'

Great posts binladen.

Artzy , you find it fair to kill a man when he cheats on his wife but a man can't hit a woman ( not violently or on the face or that does any damage- it's only like a warning)
just to tell her she's doing something wrong?
When he has talked to her and explained to her how he feels, but she still disobeys him, you are very unfair artzy. While he is obligated to provide everything for her, EVERYTHING, islam is a bit sexist to men i should think, lol.

Volar- GO TO HELL, BURN IN IT GOOD, I HOPE YOU WILL. You deserve every bit of it, you might laugh at us now, but later we'll have the final laugh, actually i'm laughing at you right now. HAHAHAHAHA.

And honestly i haven't heard the term islamophobic being used before but it's a very smart term from binladen. NICE ONE brother.

Peace out!

Ben Laden, you are a piece of work. Would you like to kill me? I am very positive you would. Now, the problem is, just how would you go about de-programming a Muslim Male? Well, I expect the best way is go give them enough rope to hang themselves. I will answer your questions later when I have more time, but meanwhile here is a link I'm sure you will find most interesting.
http://rense.com/general32/false.htm

This is Islam at its finest:

1. Hijab has been forced on every woman whether she likes it or not. Wearing no hijab may invite severe punishment. And what that punishment can be? Let us hear from the mouth of Prosecutor-General, Abolfazl Musavi-Tabrizi. "Any one who rejects the principle of hijab in Iran is an apostate and the punishment for an apostate under Islamic law is death" (August, 15, 1991)

2. Women are baby-growing fields. Unbelievable isn't it. Let us hear from Ayatollah Mutahari. He said, "The specific task of women in this society is to marry and bear children".

3. Women are banned from studies such as Engineering, Agriculture, Archaeology, Restoration of historic monuments, handicrafts and many other fields. 1

4. Provisional marriage is lawful. A man may have four "permanent wives" and as many "provisional wives" as he likes.

5. The marriage age for the girls was reduced to 13 and then further reduced to 9 years. This is in keeping with the tradition of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) who at the age of 51 married a 6 years old child (Ayesha) and had sex with her when she became 9.

6. Iranian women cannot marry foreigners without the written permission from the Ministry of Interior.

7. Divorce is an indisputable right of men and a woman can be divorced without any prior consultation.

8. A married woman cannot travel, work, join organization, go to college or visit her friends and relatives without husband's permission.

9. Married women cannot travel overseas without a written permission from their husbands. This written permission must be presented to the authorities. The authorities are also considering banning all women from traveling overseas for higher study.

10. A husband can inflict any physical violence or any other form of torture on a woman. You say 'this is absolutely cruel and unacceptable in Islam'. Let us hear from an Islamic scholar on this matter. Hojatoleslam Imani, a top religious leader says, "A married woman should endure any violence or torture imposed on her by her husband for she is fully at his disposal. Without his permission she may not leave her house even for a good action (such as charitable work). Otherwise her prayers and devotions will not be accepted by God and curses of heaven and earth will fall upon her."

11. Women are stoned to death if their husbands charge them for adultery. A woman was stoned to death even when no man was found to have committed adultery with her. A Mullah took only sixty seconds to arrive at the decision and she was stoned the next day. Before stoning her to death the mullahs shaved her head and she was buried in mud up to her shoulder. Her husband and her two small children witnessed this 'rahmat' of Allah.

12. Women political prisoners are treated as war criminals. So, they are captives (right hand's possession). Therefore, their guards can do whatever they like. Their captors regularly and systematically rape them (the women prisoners).

13. Virgin girls who are sentenced to death are not executed till their captors had sex with them and rendered them un-virgin. Since virgin girls go to heaven when they die, the Mullahs want to make sure that these girls can never enter paradise after they are executed. It is alleged that this type of sexual intercourse with virgin girl prisoners takes place on a daily basis.

14. A report by the Organization of Women against execution in Iran gives the following data for the period from 1981 to 1990.

1428 women executed

187 were under the age 18

9 girls under the age 13

The youngest girl executed was 10 years

The oldest woman executed was 70 years.

now go ahead and try to sugar coat and justify that with mere pitiful excuses.

You say that these are not 'real Islam' and the Islamic writers at NFB are dying to assert that those actions by the Mullahs of Iran are distorted images of Islam. To find the truth we just need to look at the Holy Scriptures to see if these Mullahs in Iran are right or wrong in the interpretation of the Allah's laws.

Sura al-Baqarah 2:223 Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate) so go to your tilth as ye will, and send (good deeds) before you for your souls, and fear Allah, and know that ye will (one day) meet Him. Give glad tidings to believers, (O Muhammad)

The translation is by Pickthall. This sura clearly says what a woman is all about. Yes, she is nothing but a paddy field to grow paddy. In case you may think that this translation is not reliable, let us look at the translation by Yusufali:

Your wives are as a tilth unto you, so approach your tilth when or how ye will; but do some good act for your souls beforehand; and fear God. And know that ye are to meet Him (in the Hereafter), and give (these) good tidings to those who believe.

Are the Iranian Mullahs wrong in treating women as paddy fields? I invite any Islamic writers in NFB to prove that what these people (the Iranian Mullahs) do to the women is against the Quran.

What goes on a child's mind when he/she watches his/her beloved mother is beaten mercilessly by the child's own father? The experience is extremely disturbing. But what is more disturbing is that when he grows up and finds that what his/her father did to his/her dearest mum was really inspired by the Quran.

Sura an-Nisa' 4:34 ...As to those women On whose part ye fear Disloyalty and ill-conduct Admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); But if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For God is Most High, Great (above you all).

In the translation of the above verse the word 'lightly' was added by the translator Yusufali. The original verse does not contain any such (lightly) word. Yusufali was so embarrassed that he added 'lightly' to make the verse more civilized.

In the above verse Islam has sealed the fate of women. They are an object to be used as desired and if necessary should be subjected to corporal punishment if she refuses any whim and fancy of her owner. She has very little chance to escape from the tyranny of a religious bigot and a cruel person. And what happens to the tyrant and the perpetrator who inflicts physical punishment to her? The Quran is absolutely silent on this matter. I ask any Islamic writer to prove that what the Iranian Mullah said about the physical torture of women by men (in item 10) above is against Islamic rule.

In a civilized society any physical/mental abuse of a spouse or a child is a criminal offense. The culprit is arrested by police and tried in a court of law and punished accordingly. In Australia, where I live, wife beating (rather spouse beating) and child abuses are serious criminal offenses and the Govt. Authorities waste no time in removing to a safe place the victims from the abusive spouse. The whereabouts of the victims remain a top secret till the matter is settled by the court. This is the secular law. The Quran or any other religious scripture does not inspire this law. If we go by the Quran, this law to protect women and children from abusive spouse is surely not Islamic.

Having sexual intercourse with captives is halal. You say this is absolutely un-Islamic. Let us search the Quran.

Sura an-Nisa 4:24 And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hand possess. ...(Translation by Pickthall)

Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess: ....(Translation by Yusuf Ali)

You say in modern world there are no such things as the possession of the right hands. Think again. Quran is eternal. The world may change but Quran cannot change. The Iranian Mullahs understand Quran much, much better than you and me. Is not any woman that opposes any Islamic ruling (read Allah's law) is waging a war against Allah? Are not the Mullahs fighting the enemies of Allah? So, when they defeat the enemy (captured rebel woman) she becomes the possession of the right hands (captives) of them. And Allah has permitted them to have sexual intercourse with these captive women.

Menstruation is an illness (disease)

Sura al-Baqarah 2:222 They question thee (O Muhammad) concerning menstruation. Say it is an illness, so let women alone at such times and go not in unto them till they are cleansed. (Translation by Pickthall)

They ask thee concerning women's courses. Say: They are a hurt and a pollution: So keep away from women in their courses and do not approach them until they are clean. (Translation by Yusufali)

This verse is not only completely unscientific; but also a gross insult to all women of the world. How do the millions of working women feel when they see this divine message! There can be no message more misogyny than this verse from the Quran. This verse literally means that all our mothers, sisters and wives suffer from permanent disease. A corollary of this verse will be that when a woman reaches menopause (that is her menstruation ceases) she becomes disease free! Since a woman reaches her menopause between 55 to 60 years of age, doesn't this mean that when a woman reaches her old age she is cured of her permanent illness that afflicted her when she reached her puberty. What a great logic!!

We can go on citing verses after verses from the Holy Scriptures to illustrate how anti- feminine and how hostile Islam is towards all women. What we observe being done to the women of Iran and Afghanistan shocks every civilized person Muslim, non-Muslim alike. Islmists not living in these countries have very little idea of what 'real Islam' is doing to every sister, mother and wife of the men in these paradises. Most of the Islamists living in the West have a very utopian idea of the treatment of women according to the Islamic rules. What we are witnessing in these Islamic paradises is the practical application of the Quran and Hadith. Can any western Islamist (new Mullah) prove that what their compatriots at these Islamic heavens doing are anti-Quran and anti-Hadith?

The ominous message sent by the Mullahs of this Islamic Jannat is very plain and straight. Any woman who still thinks that Islam affords her the freedom, liberty, equality, justice, her mental and physical well being is simply fooling herself. She is simply surrendering herself to a pack of wolves and the only destination these wolves will send her is to hell. That is for sure. The sad thing is that the hell that these Mullahs will send her will be in this world. She does not have to die to go there. She has to endure the suffering of hell-fire after the Mullahs have stripped her of her human dignity and reduced her to nothing but a piece of meat then to a piece of fertile crop field and eventually to a hapless destitute.

Even the prophet said that majority of women will be in hell.

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: The Prophet said " I was shown the Hell-fire and that the majority of its dwellers were women who were ungrateful" (Sahih Bukhari 1:28)

This is what is reserved for women by Allah!

"I do not know why would anyone rather to follow man-made rules and not follow God's rules"
This I don't get cause who "discovered" Islam? A person. this mahamaoud (I know I spelled it wrong) just took Judiesm and mixed some of his philosophy In it and made Islam. Again Im not saying Islam is "wrong" Im just pruving my point.
"Artzy , you find it fair to kill a man when he cheats on his wife but a man can't hit a woman "
Can't you take a joke?
Oh and I don't believe its possible to have sex with a 9 year old.
I think that its ridiculous to continue this argument about how Islam is not a very good religion. I don't agree with that but I don't disagree with that.

Islam is "wrong" read my above posts. I know its long, and you just want to skim down and avoid it, so you can express your opinion. but just read what it has to say. It will prolly back up your opinion even more.

and if bin laden post such good post, then why is it he can't even spell "Quran" correct.

Wait a sec. You can't drink? Anything?

Religion is purely based by personal preferance. Some people need to beleive in something greater then themselves, such as a god, or gods, no one can say that one religion is correct as it's all just beliefs held by each person!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pr0x1mo:
and if bin laden post such good post, then why is it he can't even spell "Quran" correct.

---

The only way to spell Quran correctly would be to put it in Arabic.

It's not English, so whatever sounds close enough is good enough when transliterated.

Muslim Paradise? You have got to be kidding!! This is the biggest joke to have ever been played on anyone, in the history of Mankind. For your amusement, I will present the facts. Enjoy.....

MUSLIM PARADISE

1) Spiritual rewards will be the same in paradise as they are not for good Muslims.

Quran 2:25 And give "good news" to those who believe, and do good deeds, that for them are Gardens in which rivers flow. Whenever they are given a portion of the fruit thereof, they will say: "This is what was given to us before; and they are given the like of it." And for them therein are pure companions, and therein they will abide.

Conclusion: The good news for Muslims is that they will have gardens instead of deserts.

2) Allah loves big spenders since they keep the economy going.

Quran 3:132-133 And hasten to forgiveness from your Lord, and a Garden, as wide as the heavens, and the earth; it is prepared for those who keep their duty: "Those who spend in ease as well as in adversity", and those who restrain their anger, and pardon men. And Allah loves the doers of good to others.

Conclusion: Big spenders are keeping their Islamic duty, and will be in paradise.

3) Muslims must keep their duty to Islam in order to be in paradise.

Quran 13:35 A parable of the Garden which is promised to "those who keep their duty": Therein flow rivers. Its fruits are perpentual, and its plenty. Such is the end for "those who keep their duty"; and the end for the disbelievers is the Fire.

Conclusion: Muslims don't need a Savior since they save themselves through good deeds.

4) Muslims will have additional heavens to acquire through duty to Islam.

Quran 39:20 But those who keep their duty to their Lord, "for them are high places, above them higher places, built for them", wherein rivers flow. It is the promise of Allah. Allah fails not in His promise.

Conclusion: Eternal progression is a pagan element used by Muhammad for evangelizing.

5) Muslims doing good deeds will be entertained in paradise.

Quran 32:19 As for those who believe, and do goods, for them are Gardens, a refuge - "an entertainment for what they did."

Conclusion: Muslims will be self-centered in paradise, as they are entertained.

Everytime I read these references to "Paradise", I shake my head in disbelief, wondering how anyone can be so gullable to believe such rubbish. This "Muhammad" has to be one of the biggest "Con Men" to ever exist (if he ever did) on this planet. His teachings...no....ramblings has caused more "Murders" than the eye can see. No god would ever allow such vicious laws to ever exist. This could only be written by "Man" to control "Man"....period. Case closed. Peace.