Ok, this may have been brought up before, sorry if it has, but anyway... If God is perfect, as many religions claim, then there is a problem. If something is perfect, then it cannot change, else it becomes less perfect. In the first place, this means that there is something that anything can do but that God cannot, which would be wrong according to the descriptions of these religions- "God can do anything we can, and then some". Secondly, if God is perfect (and hence can't change) He's either not omniscient (ie. he cant know everything, because things are changing and so he would have to change with them which, according to the definition of perfection, is impossible), or he MUST exist outside of time so that nothing changes- it all happens at once, so he doesnt have to change to accomodate new things. This is also a limiting factor - God cannot exist in time, only in space, meaning again there is something else we can do that He cant. Either that or fatalism is true, and God knew what was happening from the start. But then, if God changed something at the start (eg made the world) he too would have to change to know that the world now exists(he may have known that it was GOING to exist, but that knowledge would have to change to the world NOW exists), yet another paradox. Any thoughts?

Thats pretty serious. And I gotta say reading that, and listening to soem pink floyd [careful with that axe eugene] while stoned really tripped me out!

Anyways, I see what you're saying. He can't exist with us or know us, or help us, because by deinition is the exact 'right' that soemthign always has been and always ever will be. So if he is perfect and we change he cant change to see us as we are.

Then you brought in the time thing, how if he was outside of tiem and mad everything always go at once therefore being the perfect to everything, he wouldnt be abel to control us becomes he can only be out of space.

Wow, Im stonnnned. Sorry fi that was babble!

Sometimes it is the imperfections that make something perfect. It would be very boring if everything was the same. It would be like looking at a plain piece of canvass.

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Originally posted by errantminion:
Secondly, if God is perfect (and hence can't change) He's either not omniscient (ie. he cant know everything, because things are changing and so he would have to change with them which, according to the definition of perfection, is impossible)...

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He can know everything and he does. He knew all about what was going to happen even before he made us.

I think your appling limmited logic to something that is beyond

I don't know what to put after that

Maybe God is time, God is the actions that happen, God is the result of the actions, God is the start and end. Just maybe.

In reply to BEAR PASSING GO, you find me something with an imperfection that can be called perfect (imperfection=not perfect, not perfect and perfect are contradictory and hence mutually exclusive and hence logically impossible) then I'll consider your argument. At the minute, it totally sucks and is completely invalid.
In reply to just.landed, to support your claim you have to prove the truth of fatalism, which I can't see anyone managing in a hurry (philosophers have been trying for ages, and im yet to find a convincing argument- and i study this stuff!). Besides, your argument doesnt solve the problem of "if he made us his knowledge would have to change to accomdate the fact that we now exist...". Change is not good for perfection - it reduces it to imperfection.
To evolove, i say how else can we possibly discuss the possibility of god existing or not except by using logic - we certainly cant rely on empirical evidence, because there is none that can be considered sufficiently reliable.
To malaria, I have no idea of what to say, except perhaps that you are actually trying to define a quality of god, rather than a response to my argument.

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Originally posted by errantminion:
Any thoughts?

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God is presented in many world scriptures and beliefs as a saviour/sacrificer - perhaps allegorical for the 'sacrifice', cessation, or abandonement, of the divine existence prior to creation?

Perhaps the Divine Will is a will to perfection? Perfection, still evolving, as an idea in the Infinite Mind, or perhaps metaphorically a caterpillar becoming a butterfly.

Metamorphis of eternal dimension, expressed in time - an eyeblink of The Eternal - lifetimes for embodied souls?

I agree with SomeEverydayNobody when he says this post tripped him out. I was like Holy Shit, as I really have not seen the perfection arguement brought up on an views like this... Well anyway, here is my short view on perfection. Sorry if this has already been said, this is my first time actually posting in the Religion Forum.

God created us in his own image. Assuming this is true, then God could not be perfect. As we are not. So you would have to come to one of two conclusions, either god doesn't exsist or god isn't perfect. On this I am gonna have to go with the imperfect as I believe.

God is not perfect.

...nor is God a "He"...

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Originally posted by Ursus:
...nor is God a "He"...

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Amen.

Nox

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Originally posted by Ursus:
God is not perfect.

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What imperfections would attribute to her/it?
or are you one of those annoying "God just is" people?

God just is...

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

No, the reason I said that "God is not perfect" is the very meaning of the word "perfect" is such a subjective thing. The definition can not be universally agreed upon. "Perfect" can mean many different things to different people.
You and I both probably have a different meaning for that word.

To some, the perfect "God" is a vengeful entity. To others, the perfect "God" is one of compassion. Obviously there is a difference of opinion in that regard. So, what'll it be, vengeful or compassionate??... or something else entirely?
THAT is why I say that "God" is not perfect.

Good answer, though I don't like where this logic can lead in certain debates.
Some people try to argue that God comes before logic, so it is perfectly logical for them to believe whatever the hell they want, because their God is logical and logic is illogical. Which, of course, is a direct contradiction.
(It's not exactly the same as your argument, but you can see where I'm getting it hopefully)

Define perfect.

The concept of God(s) has remained in the collective consciousness for thousands of years.

Maybe that's perfect enough.

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Originally posted by Ursus:
To some, the perfect "God" is a vengeful entity. To others, the perfect "God" is one of compassion. Obviously there is a difference of opinion in that regard. So, what'll it be, vengeful or compassionate??... or something else entirely?
THAT is why I say that "God" is not perfect.

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i don't think that it would matter to a perfect god or that it would cause any imperfections to a perfect god just by that god knowing that some people's worldly opinions of perfect differ. how could two people's differing opinions of a perfect god effect a god that is perfect? the perfection of god does not depend on the opinions of what humans beings think is perfection.

[This message has been edited by person101 (edited 10-30-2002).]

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Originally posted by errantminion:
[B] . If something is perfect, then it cannot change, else it becomes less perfect. B]

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My theory on God is that this statement describes God; "All questions have more than one answer.". This statement is God's perfection or "sameness". God's "sameness" envelopes difference, and difference plus time equals change. This is bigger than the changes.

Ok, I'm jumping back into the fray!
First of all, I use 'He' for simplicity. I'm not going to say he/she/it/whatever everytime, and he is the standard proverb (and I personally see 'it' as inappropriate). Anyway, I'm not here to quibble about gender.
Secondly, tradition clearly states that God is perfect. I take this perfect as an objective thing - there is no way any objective being could calim God is not perfect. He (I'm sticking with it!!) is the dictionary definition of perfect if you will(no, I'm not going to quote the OED for you. You want the definition of perfect, look it up yourself!). I don't care about subjective perfection - that will, naturally, vary. I'm talking on the level of absolutes. There is an absolute for perfect, and tradition states that that thing is God. Perhaps another way of expressing it would be "posesses all perfections", which amounts to the same thing, but is a different way of expressing it.

Two new asides, now - one directly related, one kind of off track. If there is an 'outside of time' as I suggest as a cop-out means of getting around my argument, then this implies four-dimensionalism, which makes time travel possible... interesting, because whole new realms open up in arguments about fatalism, which can lead to a circular or paradoxical argument... not here, people!!
Secondly, if God 'posseses all perfections', isn't there an inherent contradiction there? For example, God is traditionally perfectly Just and perfectly Forgiving. Ignoring Just, for a second, what need have we for hell, or sins, or morals, if God is going to forgive us and let us into heaven anyway? And then, combine Forgiving with Just, a paradox arises - if one is perfectly Just, one metes out punishment as deserved for a crime (or sin or whatever). Yet if one is perfectly forgiving, then you do just that - forgive everything. The two are mutually exclusive. Also, if God is perfectly forgiving, then why the hell aren't we living in the Garden of Eden - a perfectly forgiving God would have never kicked Adam and Eve out for preaking his rules.

Responses to arguments raised: Already covered the definition of perfect and the subjectivity problem. I agree that "God preceeds logic" is a ridiculous argument. God is as subject to logic as we are. Is it logically possible for an omnipotent God to make a rock that he cannot lift? Think about it. If he can make such a rock, then he cant do something - lift it. If he can't make such a rock, there is something He can't do - make it. Either way he is not omnipotent unless we argue from logical possibility. And as to the idea that 'sameness' can envelope change, does anyone else see a glaring contradiction here? In no world can 'same' = 'different'.

Sorry about the length, but I think it's warranted. Anyway, I'm going to write an essay on this one of these days, so keep arguing with me!

Hmmmm. About the all seeing, all knowing thing, I have two theories.
Theory 1: God's like a parent. Heck, he IS a parent if you think about it. And parents know all and see all.
Theory 2: God didn't create all those angels for them to sit about playing tic-tac-toe all day. He may use them as mobile surveillance systems.
As for God being perfect, you have to remember everyone has a different definition of perfect. Who knows what true perfection is?