Sorry topic was too long to type out. Anyway if you don't believe in a God then I suppose you believe in evolution then? I'm just curious.

God and evolution are NOT mutually exclusive!

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Originally posted by Ursus:
God and evolution are NOT mutually exclusive!

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Actually, they are. Evolution is by definition undirected. Though this is not really relevant to his question.

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Originally posted by Lysander:
Evolution is by definition undirected.

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Bullshit. When the strong and the smart; are favored over the weak and stupid - for the opportunity to continue life, how could it be any other way?

Who's to say evolution isn't God's plan?

Nox

I'm with Nox here.

Life is the one thing that draws me nearer to a possible god. You can have all the bullshit that accompanies organized religion, but the undeniable power of life to survive is amazing to me.

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Originally posted by user X:
Bullshit. When the strong and the smart; are favored over the weak and stupid - for the opportunity to continue life, how could it be any other way?

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You're saying that because evolution sometimes selects the strong and smart, it must be directed? That doesn't follow.

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Originally posted by Lysander:
You're saying that because evolution sometimes selects the strong and smart, it must be directed? That doesn't follow.

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Thinking that you are right, however there maybe more than one explanation proffered seeing as we cannot prove one way or the other. To my mind it is reasonable that evolution may be directed by an indefinable source. For example, we humans evolve ideas, in America the land of the free, there is a legend called Harley-Davidson. Harley and Davidson started out with a simple idea for a motorised bicycle that has grown into a following of cultish proportions.

The original ideas and engineering designs have been 'evolved' over the past 100 years and yet the basic design can still be seen. HD actually called one engine series the evolution engine,and as many owners would assert some of the intermediary developments were as enigmatic as the steps of biological evolution.

This exemplifies for me that evolution may be directed, that is a 'maybe', it works best if one accepts the theory that THE ALL is eternal mind, evolving ideas with such infinite power that those thoughts are actualised in a physical way similar to the electricty that carries the thoughts between our neurons are an actualisation of our thoughts. Those of an infinite mind that encompasses perhaps not only this universe, but an infinite multiverse beyond may very well have infinite power of actualisation.

As an author evolves their ideas in a novel such that the characters come to have real life to them, and those characters can then inspire the imagination of others to the extent they will in fact make those fictional characters come to life in the realm of movies and stage acts, tv shows etc.

An infinite mind evolving an idea, thinking about all the possible combinations of life could perhaps evolve species, actualise thoughts into being, perhaps this would be an interesting theoretical answer for the gaps in evolution. How did the platypus develop, any intermediate steps in the evolution of this creature seem doomed to failure, they just don't work, however if the platypus was the end result of an idea that evolved in the infinite mind and, was actualised, may be?


[This message has been edited by redzed (edited 10-19-2002).]

God dammit, all I wanted to know was if you don't believe in a God do you believe in evolution? I wasn't interested in the info you guys posted but it's useful nonetheless.

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Originally posted by just.landed:
if you don't believe in a God do you believe in evolution?

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Yes.

Something to think about...

If evolution/natural selection really is a plan of God... then isn't God on the same utilitarianistic moral level as Hitler?

Hitler also believed that the human race needed to be 'improved' through the survival of the 'strongest' and deliberate killing off of the 'weak'

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Originally posted by redzed:
Thinking that you are right, however there maybe more than one explanation proffered seeing as we cannot prove one way or the other. To my mind it is reasonable that evolution may be directed by an indefinable source. For example, we humans evolve ideas, in America the land of the free, there is a legend called Harley-Davidson. Harley and Davidson started out with a simple idea for a motorised bicycle that has grown into a following of cultish proportions.

The original ideas and engineering designs have been 'evolved' over the past 100 years and yet the basic design can still be seen. HD actually called one engine series the evolution engine,and as many owners would assert some of the intermediary developments were as enigmatic as the steps of biological evolution.

This exemplifies for me that evolution may be directed, that is a 'maybe', it works best if one accepts the theory that THE ALL is eternal mind, evolving ideas with such infinite power that those thoughts are actualised in a physical way similar to the electricty that carries the thoughts between our neurons are an actualisation of our thoughts. Those of an infinite mind that encompasses perhaps not only this universe, but an infinite multiverse beyond may very well have infinite power of actualisation.

As an author evolves their ideas in a novel such that the characters come to have real life to them, and those characters can then inspire the imagination of others to the extent they will in fact make those fictional characters come to life in the realm of movies and stage acts, tv shows etc.

An infinite mind evolving an idea, thinking about all the possible combinations of life could perhaps evolve species, actualise thoughts into being, perhaps this would be an interesting theoretical answer for the gaps in evolution. How did the platypus develop, any intermediate steps in the evolution of this creature seem doomed to failure, they just don't work, however if the platypus was the end result of an idea that evolved in the infinite mind and, was actualised, may be?

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You're confusing evolution in the everyday sense and evolution, the process.

You're saying that because evolution sometimes selects the strong and smart, it must be directed? That doesn't follow.

If there is an intelligence or guiding force behind it, it's not evolution, it's design.

[This message has been edited by Lysander (edited 10-22-2002).]

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Originally posted by Nox:
Who's to say evolution isn't God's plan?

Nox

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It's not because Darwins theory of evolution contradicts the sayings in the bible.

(Nox is deist, he probably couldn't care less about what the bible says)

I could really care less what's in the bible, but I believe everyone knows there isn't a section based on firsthand accounts of monkeys evolving into man.

yes yes... I just assumed that you were assuming that Nox was christian based on your comment.

I thought you were being sarcastic, but turns out you were just being franc.

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Originally posted by Nox:
Who's to say evolution isn't God's plan?

Nox

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Plan?

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Originally posted by Bogey Man:
(Nox is deist, he probably couldn't care less about what the bible says)

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Not totally true. I like the Book of Proverbs and the Book of Ecclesiastes.

The Book of the Revelation of St. John fascinates me because I consider it the first historical document written by someone who had been under the influence of drugs.

The Acts of the Apostles is intreging because the "Apostle Paul" gives a self-serving (and unsubstantiated) account of how he became an 'Apostle' (one who has physically seen Jesus Christ) while on the road to Damascus. With his newfound handle, Paul was able to shape Christianity forever through a multitude of Letters (Galatians, Corinthians, et al) to congregations and establish the doctrine and dogma which the man named Jesus Christ failed to do.

True, I do not believe in Christianity now. A long time ago I did (got over it). When I discovered myriad pagan rites, customs, and beliefs inculcated into the religion that I was so completely immersed in, my revulsion knew no bounds. I did not become the typical agnostic/atheist which is common for those who have had circumstances like mine. I have always felt that the Big Bang made sense. My problem became, where did the energy from which all matter is formed come from? The quest to find the answer to that question is why I am a deist. So, do I not care about the Bible? Only in that the Bible is not a book of religion; the Bible is a book about religion. Because it is about religion, I quote from it and have actually looked within its covers twice in the last ten years.

Nox

God. No.
Evolution. Yes.
Unless someone can come up with a more logical explanation for survival of the fittest and the marvelous ability of species and creatures to adapt to environment, and mutate...

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Originally posted by Ursus:
God and evolution are NOT mutually exclusive!

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A God that is all perfect, which would manifest itself evident in his actions, and the highly wasteful frankensteinian method of evolution that produces more failures than successes, are mutually exclusive.

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Originally posted by TigerJK:
Something to think about...

If evolution/natural selection really is a plan of God... then isn't God on the same utilitarianistic moral level as Hitler?

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Yes. Why do you think he inspired such a following? The Fuhrer knew the score, he was close to the true pulse of life.

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Hitler also believed that the human race needed to be 'improved' through the survival of the 'strongest' and deliberate killing off of the 'weak'[/B]

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You dont think it does?

Different skills survive at different times. I'd prefer Chinese to Negroes, yet, at one point, the Negroes could easily have overpowerd them with their physical strength.

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Originally posted by Lysander:
You're saying that because evolution sometimes selects the strong and smart, it must be directed? That doesn't follow.

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Evolution is inherently directive by nature. Whether a divine force; set it in motion or not, it HAS directed the course of all life on this planet until now. The Genome Project puts the future of evolution in man's hands now. Even with man controlling it (that's a scary thought in itself.), it could still be divine, because we didn't create it, we would just be manipulating it.

Our nature would still define what we do with it anyway, so nature would still be controlling. We by nature utilize, direct, and breed other life for our own ends, which is what we will do with genetic engineering.

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Originally posted by user X:
Evolution is inherently directive by nature. Whether a divine force; set it in motion or not, it HAS directed the course of all life on this planet until now. The Genome Project puts the future of evolution in man's hands now. Even with man controlling it (that's a scary thought in itself.), it could still be divine, because we didn't create it, we would just be manipulating it.

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You're saying that evolution has directed the development of life on this planet. That's true in some sense. What I'm saying is that evolution itself is undirected, that is, it didn't and isn't moving towards some goal.

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Originally posted by Spirit of '22:
You dont think it does?

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Sweet Zombie Jesus, does it ever.

Right, because a "goal" would imply an END, and that runs counter to life's purpose, which is to MAINTAIN itself. I'm not saying there's an overall plan, just a blueprint for the next generation, that brings all the good things with it from the last one. Constant improvement just comes with the deal. It's to be respected in the here-and-now, rather than wasting time on some bullshit possible enlightenment where we "can cast off the chains of racial bigotry because we'll all just be pretty beams of light, dancing on the etheral path to eternity"

My point was that evolution (the life process) dictates; what we look like; how we think; how we live, etc.

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Originally posted by Spirit of '22:
Our nature would still define what we do with it anyway, so nature would still be controlling.

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True, but it still scares me, because those that run the corporate machines are soulless bastards - "by nature".

And I'm not real comfortable eating genetically modified agri-products either. We could be inadvertently fucking up our DNA.

I like to think that we're not so greedy as to avoid our own self-imposed extinction, but I'm not sure.

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Originally posted by Nox:
Who's to say evolution isn't God's plan?

Nox

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just what i was going to say, but you said it first. Props to you my friend

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Originally posted by Nox:
Who's to say evolution isn't God's plan?
Nox

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[/b]

Those that believe Genesis and argue for an omnicient infallable benevolent God.

I think that people who do not believe in god have a void in their heart that god can fill. The belief in god helps people overcome difficulties that are not normal.

I also believe that god helped evolution. was it just by chance that the planet that hit the earth 4.4 blillion years ago hit the earth in just the right place so it would create one large moon. Without the moon like as we know it would not exsit. We would all be in under 3 kilometers of water. So i say god had some divine plan when this event happened 4.4 billion years ago.

Or explain why the Dinosaurs became extinct. If the Dinosaus did not die off then there would be no human life because the Dinosaur still would be the apex predator, and you try to tell me that all these things happened by chance. I don't think so some greater being had to have some type of interevntion.

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Originally posted by user X:
Bullshit. When the strong and the smart; are favored over the weak and stupid - for the opportunity to continue life, how could it be any other way?

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If you think evolution is there show me the link between man and ape/chimpanzee.

If you are still unsatisfied then tell me that why Darwinism's new face Neo-Darwinism (which is also clueless about evolution of human beings and other living things) came into being.

Linking men to apes is the stuff of parlor games. It's the process itself that's important.

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Originally posted by Spirit of '22:
You dont think it does?

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In a purely biological sense, yes.

But haven't human ethical/moral systems decided that every person has a right to live? (at least in theory) Hence socialism, helping out the poor, facilities for the disabled, etc...

So that implies that either we are now completely out of touch with God, or the explanation I prefer, which is that God, which started as a pillar of human society, has evolved over time so that there are so many extensions, lean-tos, extra storeys and extra basements that as a building it should be condemned.

No I don't believe in God. Yes I do believe in evolution because their is scientific proof that evolution takes place. Also I believe that society should take on a policy of social darwinism because we are basicly just better educate mammals.

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Originally posted by BuD02:
Yes I do believe in evolution because their is scientific proof that evolution takes place.

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True ... but only to a point. Man has yet to show the evolutionary link from Neanderthal to Cro-Magnon.

I use somewhat dated data here when I refer to Lucy being the 'oldest' Neanderthal (there have been other finds claiming to be older but they haven't been given a name yet; that I know of). Lucy dates to circa 2,000,000 BCE. The latest Neanderthal remains date from 75,000-100,000 BCE (depending on the archeological site. In that approximately 1.9 million years of Neanderthal existance, Neaderthal remained virtually unchanged.

I recently read that an excavation uncovered a Cro-magnon judged to have lived circa 300,000 BCE. There was little difference between that Cro-magnon and today's human.

My point: If man evolved, who or what did man evolve from? For 1.9 million years, Neanderthal didn't change. Then miracuously, Neanderthal evolved into Cro-magnon and all its (Cro-magnons) associated races. And (and this is exceedingly important) there are no transitional species. When a skeleton is found, it is either one or the other, but not both. The counter argument to this is, Well we just haven't found it yet. Baloney. "Ya ain't found it cause it ain't there to be found" (Nox quote of the day).

Nox

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Originally posted by Nox:
If man evolved, who or what did man evolve from?

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The last generation, and all those before it. The charachteristics of any missing link; reside in us today.

Do the generations before us go all the way back to apes? What do they go back to?

"I think that people who do not believe in god have a void in their heart that god can fill. The belief in god helps people overcome difficulties that are not normal."

It is this huge fallacy which has done so very much harm to human kind. God is like liuor or sex or gambling or anything else, it is just another 'crutch' which people use to stand on in times of trouble. When things get hard, forget about dealing with the problem responsibly and head-on, and instead ask your god or your television or your bottle of Jim Bean to take care of the problem for you. It is an act of cowardice, and one which the poor and hapless sheep which litter this world use to depend on every day, in lieu of being strong and independent human beings.

I totally challenge your notion that people without God lack something in their heart. I don't believe in any God, haven't since I was a small child. I am one of the most happy and upbeat people everybody knows. Everybody comes to me for advice, to tell me their problems. I have had a life of trouble, yet I didn't need any false mythologies or crutches to get me through.

There was a time years ago, when everything had fallen apart, and I was on the brink of endind it all. I got through, because I had the strength to go, I had the will. No GOD was coming to my rescue, I rescued myself. If more people in this world put down that Silly Bible, got out there, paid no heed to any silly false God, and just starting LIVING for the simple sake of LIVING, then this world would be a damn fine place...


wow, I'll step off my soapbox now...

Wow i hope you get cancer and I want to see how you can handle dying with out any crutches. I knew this person who was an aetheist there whole life, never went to church and what not. This person got cancer and all of a sudden asked everyone to pray for them. We'll see what happens to you. Also there is the sayong that there are no aetheists in fox holes. So all of you who don't believe in god beleive that all of this happened by chance. Ok.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RedBananaMonkey:
[B

It is this huge fallacy which has done so very much harm to human kind. God is like liuor or sex or gambling or anything else, it is just another 'crutch' which people use to stand on in times of trouble.

I beleive in god. I pray to him in times of rejoice and in times of trouble. I just don't go to him in a time of trouble. That would be hypocritical. I respect that you don't believe in god, but I don't think that for people who believe in god that it is a crutch. I think that meterial things can be a crutch not something like god which is something that we can't meterially see.

Religion gets a lot of bad press, but stop to think about the positive effects...

It's bonded societies, and inspired/caused/motivated acts of morality.
This is when religion is a way of life, and not just a 'crutch.'

Hoy.. starting to wish one of Einsteins quotes was totally correct
"Reality is an illusion, albeit, a good one"

I believe that any theory I can come up with about creation, afterlifes and existence is probably wrong, and therefore such things aren't worth worrying about.

I believe in evolution because its effects are demonstrable; I don't believe that neccessarily means there is no God

If I was a God I'd find watching my creations adapt to their environments and eradicating each other fascinating.

There is a possibility I could get flamed for this, but oh well. Try this:

What if Adam and Eve were both apes, (or whatever the scientific name is) and we evolved from them?

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Originally posted by A-F Army:
What if Adam and Eve were both apes, (or whatever the scientific name is) and we evolved from them?

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Why would you get flamed? That is precisely what the theory of evolution is.

Nox

I have been told off many times for stating this belief. I say it and people automatically judge me as a blasphemous, and label my idea as preposterous.