Pride is a result of condition. Your pride can be perceived by others as many diff. things.
It is absolutely and emotion engraved that deep to be instinct. A process through which and intelligent mind displays only for validation. Look at animals with less intellect there is no such thing as pride.
Just a human process of the mind. Same as honor.

[This message has been edited by abstractAffect (edited 10-23-2002).]

I really dont think pride is learned. Maybe you are taught to take pride in some more complicated things, but pride itself is instinctual. It is necessary for one's defense. Pride is what makes us confront the guy staring us down. if we didnt, the guy staring us down will make us look weak, support for us would die down, and he would kill you.

Some people are naturally dishonorable, though.

And being an instinct means it just comes naturally and from within. Instincts can be suppressed through media and such.

You have to first ask were instinct comes from.
It's a result of conditional factors that become apart of our psyche. The example of it being the force that makes us stand up to an opposing guy staring us down is weak b/c there are many examples of people/culutres/animals that don't display any of this.

If you were to raise a child from a clean genetic makeup and brought up without the need or desire to prove itself to anyone it would avoid or even not give a shit about another male staring them down.

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Originally posted by abstractAffect:
Look at animals with less intellect there is no such thing as pride.

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I'm not so sure about that. Who's to say that a predator doesn't feel pride, when it provides food for it's charges.

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[Instinct is] a result of conditional factors

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No, it's hereditary. Instinct is embedded in our DNA. I'm not sure what a "clean genetic makeup" is, but if it's a human that's been stripped of his instinct, then it might as well just be a plant.
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Originally posted by VeneFrigus:
Some people are naturally dishonorable, though.

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I disagree, isn't dishonor learned in an environment of dishonor? A child that is raised in an honorable home; seldom dishonors his parents. Likewise, a child raised in an environment of dishonor (or one lacking any honor), is seldom honorable.

I agree with the second part though. Sometimes instinct needs to be rediscovered in humans, because it lays dormant from lack of use.
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Originally posted by Spirit of '22:
[Pride] is necessary for one's defense. Pride is what makes us confront the guy staring us down. if we didnt, the guy staring us down will make us look weak, support for us would die down, and he would kill you.

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That's just basic survival instinct between two predators with binocular vision. "Staring down" suggests an offensive action (depth of field). Imagine a prey animal in the same situation - looking at you with one eye, while looking for additional threats with the other. You said as much yourself in your post. And being perceived as "weak" isn't avoiding shame?

I'm not positive about my stance on the emotion/instinct thing. I will say that they're definitely intertwined to the point were it's difficult to separate them. The same goes for "love". It transcends the procreation instinct, but is borne out of the instinct just the same. (heh, damn fine pun.)

In some people there just is no instinct of honor. Whether from bad blood or genetic mutation, it simply isn't present.

Of course I could be wrong. I'm not at all sure.

I disagree. Honor is definitely learned. Honor is what men use; to satisfy some of their instinctual needs, but it's something we create after the womb. It's religious in nature. It makes us feel good; helps us find our place in the world; it embraces both good and evil; it can be bought and sold. Religion defines men's honor.

The content of honor is certainly learned.

The concept I'm not sure about.

I disagree unless self worship is considered religious. I think honor (as you kinda said user x) is used to name a whole group of our instinctual needs - maybe the need to prove our honor for other people is more learned but personal honor is related to confidence, self-worth, and more base survival.

Bah. I wrote it backwards.

Sometimes cause my selfish self wants to worship itself. Not God cause it means I give up myself for him. I still do worship God cause I know without him I am nothing.