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My God Can Beat the Shit Out of Your God For discussing any and all religious viewpoints. Intolerance will not be tolerated. Keeping your sense of humor is required. Posting messages about theological paradoxes is encouraged.

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 #1 
Old 2002-10-08, 05:59
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Yami no tensai
Default Preacher's Kid to Atheist

An interesting article I came across:


My Story: Preacher's Kid to Atheist
- by Diana Black

My mother went into labor during Sunday morning worship services and had to leave church to give birth to me. Perhaps it was an omen.

There was no one incident that changed my life. I was so deeply indoctrinated� literally from birth�that I spent my formative years in intense denial of my atheism. My awakening was a series of minor epiphanies that took years to sink in. This is my story.

I was born and raised in Nacogdoches, Texas, the daughter of a Church of Christ preacher. My social life, outside of my family, consisted of going to church and school. For much of my childhood, my father preached at one church while we simultaneously �supported� another, so we went to church, on average, five times a week. All told, I probably spent as much time on a pew by the time I was eighteen as I spent in public school.

I was baptized at the tender age of eight. It wasn�t because I desired heaven and feared hell, or because I was aware of the requirement lest I perish in my sins. No. It was because I already understood enough of the doctrine to know this was expected of me. At that point, all the church members became �Brother� this and �Sister� that. Cool. I was in the club.

The Church of Christ of which we were members was extremely conservative. All music was a capella, because we weren�t commanded to use musical instruments in worship. Everybody sang, since we were all commanded to �sing and make melody in your heart.� Women kept silence in the church, of course (except for singing, which for some reason is considered an exception to the rule). Nobody smoked or drank, since this defiled the temple of God (i.e., your body). Nobody cussed, either (we were even forbidden to say �Darn!� since �we all know what you mean�). Every aspect of our lives, to the tiniest detail, was determined based on what the bible said about it.

Everything was by The Book (so to speak). The only way to ensure your eternal salvation was to speak where the bible speaks and be silent where the bible is silent. I grew up explaining to my peers why I didn�t celebrate Xmas (because the bible is silent on it, and because it has pagan roots). Or Halloween (definitely pagan). Or Easter (we�re commanded to commemorate the resurrection of Xst every first day of the week�not one day a year; hence, there is nothing special about this day).

Because we didn�t celebrate Xmas, we didn�t go through the Santa Claus facade. My mother once told us about a cartoon she�d seen in which one little boy said to another, �I just found out Santa Claus isn�t real. Now I�m going to check into this Jesus Christ thing.�

I suspect she was patting herself on the back for never putting herself in the position of explaining to her offspring why Santa was fake but Jesus was real. But she unwittingly planted a seed.

When I was in the third or fourth grade, I went to school briefly with a boy who told me about the Big Bang. And he clearly believed this�this nonsense. I was appalled. And fascinated. I mean, everybody knew God created the world, right?

None of the bible made sense, but I accepted what I was told. I assumed, as most children do, that grownups knew better than me. Someday it would make sense. So I didn�t bother asking questions when I read that God had hardened Pharaoh's heart, although a part of me screamed, �Not fair! Not fair!� I never asked how the Israelites could possibly keep meandering off to worship other gods when they saw such incredible miracles from The One True God as a matter of course. And the one Old Testament blanket problem that really bugged me�Why did God command the Israelites to kill other nations entirely?� I never asked.

Surely, I thought, everybody else sees these (and other) problems, too. I thought I was the only one who wasn�t understanding, so I kept my mouth shut. I didn�t want to look dumb.

In the fourth or fifth grade, I had a religious discussion with a Catholic girl named Susan. The conversation spanned several days. Each night, we went home and asked our parents questions so we could continue our discussion the next day. I remember losing interest about the point it occurred to me that we were both simply repeating what our parents had told us, but neither of us really knew what we were talking about. I remember convincing myself that this condition would change by adulthood if I just studied harder.

I spent my childhood fascinated with the American Indians and reading everything about them I could find. I asked my mother one day if all the Indians who'd been in America before Christianity arrived had gone to hell. She looked distinctly uncomfortable then said something about how God would take that into account. The answer clearly wasn't satisfying to me, because I carried that question in the back of my mind for years.

One day, in the fifth grade, a cold snap hit and graced us with about a foot of snow on a Wednesday afternoon. The town had shut down almost entirely (East Texas, remember), and my parents had made the difficult decision to stay home from �worship.� (My family usually goes to �worship� instead of �church,� just as they usually refer to the bible as �the truth.� Never underestimate the power of words�it�s difficult to argue against such utter certainty.)

Anyhow, as my mother and I sat alone at the kitchen table watching the snow fall, she sighed deeply and said, �I feel so guilty for not going to church tonight, but we just can�t take the chance of driving in this weather.� I knew what was expected of me. I agreed with her, conscious the while that I was thrilled with the unexpected break.

Then I punished myself by feeling guilty for being excited that we couldn�t go to church that night.

My clearest ongoing memory of my childhood is this: I tried to believe, I thought everyone else believed because they said they did, and I felt intense guilt because I was unable to convince myself to just have faith.

I enlisted in the Air Force at eighteen. I didn�t really have a confirmed belief or lack of belief at the time�just a subconscious realization (if that�s possible) that I needed to get away from what I knew so I could decide what I thought, believed, liked, and wanted.

The first change I made was to stop going to church. I�d always been taught that obligatory worship was meaningless (although I�d never been given a choice), so I decided I�d go back only if I decided I wanted to worship God.

I hadn�t taken parental visits into account. When they came to see me at my first duty station, I took them to church. When my mother told me that she was shocked to learn that no one knew who I was, I decided it wasn�t worth it to continue the charade. The next time they came to visit, I admitted I didn�t go to church. Daddy (bless his buttons) told Mother to drop it and leave me alone.

For several years, I didn�t know what I believed, and I didn�t give it much thought. But the longer I spent without the constant indoctrination of my childhood, the more I began to see the rationalization and convenient interpretation of my family�s beliefs. Drinking was a sin, of course, but alcohol �for medicinal purposes� was somehow okay. (For the record, �relaxation� is not considered a �medicinal purpose,� unless you have a nasty cough.) Girls were to dress as girls, unless they�re doing something which requires male attire. �Female attire� involved a skirt, but if I was prevailed upon to mow the lawn, I was required to wear pants, although I don�t remember any scriptural clause which allowed for this exception.

As the years passed, my questions grew. How could they claim that the only reason a man could leave his wife was if she cheated? So a woman couldn�t leave a man who beat her? Or molested her children? Or even made her feel small and insignificant? (According to the �scriptures,� if you follow this issue to its logical conclusion, the only way a man and woman can have a �scriptural� divorce is if (a) one of them cheats or (b) one dies. So if you�re in a bad relationship and you want to scripturally be able to remarry, you must either (a) cheat on that person or (b) kill him/her.)

Then I met my first avowed atheist. He told me how his grandmother had paid him, as a child, to read the bible and he�d complied. Far from giving him faith, it had left him full of questions she couldn�t answer: Why did God save Lot from Sodom and Gomorrah only to be raped in his sleep by his daughters? Is this behavior that�s good in God�s eyes? And suchlike.


Then I met another atheist. And another. These people all had certain things in common: they were the most honest, forthright, kind, intelligent and genuine people I�d ever met. I didn�t assume all atheists were like this; rather, I was intrigued to find that atheists�any of them�could be so principled. This ran contrary to everything I�d ever been told about �he who hath said in his heart there is no God.� These people were not fools by any stretch of the imagination.

During this period, I called myself �agnostic.� This went on for years. (In my opinion, �agnostic� means �I don�t know, I don�t care, and I don't want to think about it.�) During this time, I moved from Colorado to Virginia, where I made friends with a well-educated Pakistani Muslim. I questioned him about his beliefs �more out of curiosity than anything else�and quickly came to the point where he had no answers. Instead, he simply said, �If you know too much about your religion, you lose your faith.�

Out of respect for him, I dropped the subject. But I�ve wondered for years how he could tell me in all seriousness that�essentially�the only way he could keep his faith was to maintain a certain amount of ignorance of it.

From Virginia, I moved to North Carolina, where I returned to school to finish my degree.

In the course of events, I took �The History of Western Civilization, Part I.� I learned what a powerful, omnipresent influence religion had been throughout history, from the beginnings of life in the Fertile Crescent through the rise and fall of the Roman Empire. Fascinating, really, how people always had gods for whatever they needed to believe at the time. If they fought a lot of wars, they had war-gods. Farmers had goddesses of fertility, of course. No one except the Egyptians had any formulated beliefs in an afterlife for the longest time, probably because the Egyptians were agriculturally rich and isolated from marauders for centuries. They had a good, easy life and plenty of time to sit around wondering how to make that easy life continue through eternity.

I also learned about the basic tenets of Zoroastrianism, and that their god had many of the same qualities and ideas�coincidentally, I�m sure�as Jesus. (Or was it the other way around?) And my history book mentioned that the Epic of Gilgamesh had a Garden of Eden and Flood Epic parallel. How�curious, no?

And I took psychology, from which I began to understand what motivated people to believe, how superstitions take root in uneducated minds, and how desperately people will defend basic concepts they�ve accepted as true yet have no proof of.

Although it may sound unrelated, I realized toward the end of my degree program while I was in Wilmington, that the martial arts explanations I�d received and passed on for many years were wrong. The books written by the Oriental masters for Westerners were misleading (intentionally or otherwise). I spoke with many �masters,� and realized that they didn�t have the answers, either.

You might say I lost my �faith� in martial arts first. Things began to come together when a friend of mind made the flippant comment: �Masters are the priesthood of the martial arts.�

He was trying to convince me to not give up on them altogether, I think. He figured priests and martial arts masters still have something to offer, but they admittedly dabble in mysteries of which they may only have spotty knowledge.

But I took it a different way. I�d accepted everything I�d been told about the martial arts�explanations for techniques, the purpose of kata, how to practice fighting�from the day I�d begun training. I�d asked questions, but the answers were circular and unsatisfying. But I�d continued to train, believing that someday, it would all make sense.

Hey�wait a minute�Hadn�t I had that same problem with religion?

About that time, I moved to Augusta, Georgia.


Once again, I was in The Land Of Churches. It was like a trip back through time to my childhood. Only now, I looked at it through eyes undimmed by indoctrination and preconceived ideas. What I saw was hundreds of churches in Augusta alone. Some of the buildings were so huge and elaborate that they could have fed the starving inhabitants of a third-world country for a year. There is easily enough pew space, all told, in Augusta to seat the actual population of the town five times over.

This being beside the point, somewhat. When I found myself back in �God�s Country,� my interest in the true origins of religion resurfaced. The catalyst was a slender book I'd picked up for fifty cents at a library sale while visiting Colorado. It was called The Book Your Church Doesn't Want You To Read. It was a mish-mash of essays by various writers on different aspects of religion. "The 16 Crucified Saviors," I think, was the selling point. I read all sorts of things I'd never even heard of before, much of which turned out to be myth itself, but the book left me hungry for anything out there that was true that I'd been sheltered from.

So I went out on the �net and began to read (there being a shortage of such information in bookstores in that part of the country). I spent many days online from 5am to after 7pm. I read everything I could find from doubters. I�d never read the literature of doubters �til then.

I read �The Greatest Story Ever Sold,� a site much reviled by theists and looked askance by many atheists, and while I don�t agree with all her conclusions, I must agree that the similarities in ancient myths (including the Xst one) are striking. If even one-tenth of the parallels she draws are true, the case for Xst as a myth is still a strong one.

I read almost all of �Forgeries in Xnty� and �Is It God�s Word?� by Joseph Wheless, both of which are online in their entirety. The picture of how Xnty rose to power became clearer to me.

I read sites by Jewish rabbis, touting and defending their faith. I read some of the basic beliefs of Hindus, and Muslims, then went back to the writings of Robert Ingersoll and Thomas Paine and countless lesser known questioners. And I read sites by numerous Xn apologists, and was amazed at all the nonsense they touted that I�d spent my life trying to believe.

Then one morning, I woke up and realized for the first time, clearly and undeniably, that I simply didn�t believe. This was my greatest problem with the whole of religion from beginning to end: it must be taken on faith. I am incapable of believing anything without evidence. But�here�s the catch�if you actually had evidence, faith would not be possible.

It says so right there in black and white. Hebrews 11:1: �Now faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen.� In other words, it�s something you want but have no reason to expect. No reason. Other than hope. That�s what that verse means.

Further, it hit me in that long moment of revelation that if there really is a god, then he knows that I don�t believe. So what�s the use trying to convince myself? God knows better, right? The bible doesn�t say, �For those who come to him must try to believe that he is�.� It says, �For those who come to him must believe that he is�.� And I don�t. Without evidence, I can�t. Faith, at least for me, is impossible. (And hypocrisy is a sin, so going around telling everyone that I believed when I really didn�t was just as bad. See the dilemma?)

My first reaction was an overwhelming sense of freedom. There really wasn�t somebody looking over my shoulder. There really wasn�t anyone keeping score. It was just me. I had to answer to me in the end.

Contrary to what Xns seem to believe, I didn�t rush right out and commit mass murder. Or armed robbery. I didn�t even go next door and sleep with my neighbor�s husband. No. I realized that I had the power to do whatever I wanted with my life. I�m not sure if this really tied in with the sudden absence of any superstition whatsoever, but I�ve never felt so free and powerful in my life as I did at that moment. (And I still feel it, so there must be some connection.)

But what a SCAM! Oooo. I was angry at that moment, from a lifetime of being force-fed superstitious bullshit. I was angry at having been taught to systematically shut down my logical facilities and to �just believe.� At being taught to look down on others because their beliefs were somehow inferior. At being taught to believe in demons. At being lied to about what science really had to say about evolution. At being threatened perpetually with HELLFIRE. At being afraid to even THINK a �sinful� thought, since Jesus knew my every whim.

And in that period, I found the oasis of the Secular Web. I read an article, went to post a feedback to it, and found myself somehow in the forums. I tried to lurk but hadn�t read more than an hour when I began to argue. I took issue with every single aspect of Xnty. Every single one. The anger was coming out, and it felt GOOD.

I�m sure the administrators and regulars saw me and thought, �Another hothead.� That was over a year ago, though, and I�ve long since become an accepted member of the community. (Respected? Possibly. By some. Reviled by others. C�est la vie.)

I often think, when I see newbies there spewing invective, �Another hothead.� But I understand. It�s cleansing.

Over the last year, I have done more in-depth reading, once the initial flames of anger died out. I�ve come to reject the very notion of �god� (or �gods�) by definition. That is, the characteristics which gods are commonly said to hold are mutually exclusive with reality as we know it. Coexistence of, say, omniscience and free will are logically impossible. For this reason, I don�t claim to �not believe in a god,� but I actually contend that a god (at least by present definitions) is not possible.

That�s it. So far.
 #2 
Old 2002-10-08, 08:04
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OZ
Default Re: Preacher's Kid to Atheist

Excellent read, hope there is more. Two questions.

quote:
Originally posted by Dark_Magneto:

It says so right there in black and white. Hebrews 11:1: Now faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. In other words, it s something you want but have no reason to expect. No reason. Other than hope. That s what that verse means.


Opinion. In context, 'faith' as the term is used elsewhere in scripture, seems possible, for faith is spoken of as a 'gift'.

quote:
the characteristics which gods are commonly said to hold are mutually exclusive with reality as we know it. Coexistence of, say, omniscience and free will are logically impossible. For this reason, I don t claim to not believe in a god, but I actually contend that a god (at least by present definitions) is not possible.




God is Consciousness that pervades the entire universe of the living and the non-living.

-Ramakrishna

It is both near and far, both within and without every creature; it moves and is unmoving. In its subtlety it is beyond comprehension. It is invisible, yet appears divided in separate creatures. Know it to be the creator, the preserver, and the destroyer.

Dwelling in every heart, it is beyond darkness. It is called the light of the lights, the object and goal of knowledge, and knowledge itself.

-Bhagavad Gita 13:15-17

THE ALL (which is the Substantial Reality underlying all the outward manifestations and appearances which we know under the terms of "The Material Universe"; the "Phenomena of Life"; "Matter"; "Energy"; and, in short, all that is apparent to our material senses) is SPIRIT which in itself is UNKNOWABLE and UNDEFINABLE, but which may be considered and thought of as AN UNIVERSAL, INFINITE, LIVING MIND.
"THE ALL IS MIND; THE UNIVERSE IS MENTAL."--THE KYBALION.

God is Spirit
-Gospel of John
 #3 
Old 2002-10-08, 12:52
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NJ
Default Re: Preacher's Kid to Atheist

I got about halfway through the thing before i wanted to vomit and discontinued reading. She is an idiot who is incapable of seperating the idea of divinity from the idea of a starving jewish rebel nailed to a stick, and is probably just trying to get back at daddy for not letting her have any fun.
 #4 
Old 2002-10-08, 22:16
Bogey Man Bogey Man is offline
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Default Re: Preacher's Kid to Atheist

After all, Spirit, who wants to read something about someone else's point of view? Your post make me want to vomit.
And, once again, who are you to critique something you didn't read?

Good find Dm.
 #5 
Old 2002-10-08, 23:30
anarchy720 anarchy720 is offline
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Default Re: Preacher's Kid to Atheist

That was the most stupid thing i've ever heard
 #6 
Old 2002-10-08, 23:36
Bogey Man Bogey Man is offline
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Default Re: Preacher's Kid to Atheist

Or as some of us like to say: "stupidest"
 #7 
Old 2002-10-09, 00:02
living4fear living4fear is offline
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Default Re: Preacher's Kid to Atheist

i am only 14, that doesnt mean i don't know my way around religion. ive studied at buddist temples synoges churchs, the fun mirical healer churches. all to me seemed like a pack of bs that they tried to bribe into my heart by emty promises like, jesus loves you. yeah thats why i have broken 4 bones and i have had a molnoma removed from my back nice way of showing love. those healers are just fun to watch, those guys are crazy. the buddist temples by the bennihana i like to eat at (cant a anarchist/agnostc kid do nice things?) i refer to as a philophsy atain peace and happinese is great. so the point im tryieng to make is dont spit o how people live they arnt you you ignrant nut job *cough anrchy78 whatever other #'r *cough*
 #8 
Old 2002-10-09, 00:55
syphon detonator syphon detonator is offline
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Default Re: Preacher's Kid to Atheist

interesting read
 #9 
Old 2002-10-09, 01:40
govinda govinda is offline
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Default Re: Preacher's Kid to Atheist

very cool, it was nice to see her questioning her Oriental masters too.
 #10 
Old 2002-10-09, 03:43
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Yami no tensai
Default Re: Preacher's Kid to Atheist

quote:

My first reaction was an overwhelming sense of freedom. There really wasn�t somebody looking over my shoulder. There really wasn�t anyone keeping score. It was just me. I had to answer to me in the end.



That I could really relate to.
 #11 
Old 2002-10-09, 06:37
crocodile dundee crocodile dundee is offline
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Default Re: Preacher's Kid to Atheist

and then u die...and ur life has been pointless.

SHIT HAPPENS:

catholicism - if im good shit wont happen
Judaism - why does this shit always happen to me
Rastafarianism - lets smoke this shit
Islam - If shit happens, take a hostage
Aetheism - What shit???

croc



[This message has been edited by crocodile dundee (edited 10-09-2002).]
 #12 
Old 2002-10-09, 06:45
Joe Boo Joe Boo is offline
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Default Re: Preacher's Kid to Atheist

quote:
Originally posted by crocodile dundee:
and then u die...and ur life has been pointless.

SHIT HAPPENS:

catholicism - if im good shit wont happen
Judaism - why does this shit always happen to me
Rastafarianism - lets smoke this shit
Islam - If shit happens, take a hostage
Aetheism - What shit???

croc

[This message has been edited by crocodile dundee (edited 10-09-2002).]



actually, it's "If Shit Happens, I deserve it" for Catholics
 #13 
Old 2002-10-09, 09:11
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Yami no tensai
Default Re: Preacher's Kid to Atheist

quote:
Originally posted by crocodile dundee:
and then u die...and ur life has been pointless.



If your life is pointless without religion, then it never had a point to begin with.

 #14 
Old 2002-10-09, 10:06
Bogey Man Bogey Man is offline
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Default Re: Preacher's Kid to Atheist

quote:
Originally posted by Dark_Magneto:
[QUOTE]
My first reaction was an overwhelming sense of freedom. There really wasn�t somebody looking over my shoulder. There really wasn�t anyone keeping score. It was just me. I had to answer to me in the end.



That I could really relate to.
[/QUOTE]


Me too, I could relate to a lot of it actually
 #15 
Old 2002-10-09, 11:58
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NJ
Default Re: Preacher's Kid to Atheist

>>>>i am only 14, that doesnt mean i don't know my way around religion. ive studied at buddist temples synoges churchs, the fun mirical healer churches.<<<<


Didnt you ever play with GI Joes or try and look up girls skirts instead?
 #16 
Old 2002-10-12, 13:03
Jacross Jacross is offline
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Default Re: Preacher's Kid to Atheist

her story is fair enough but it isnt special. in fact its fairly cliche atheist realisation.

i dont have a problem with her conclusions so much as i have a problem with her thinking that it would be an interesting read.
 #17 
Old 2002-10-12, 13:12
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VA
Default Re: Preacher's Kid to Atheist

quote:
Originally posted by Spirit of '22:
Didnt you ever play with GI Joes or try and look up girls skirts instead?


Damn sexual harassment laws...
 #18 
Old 2002-10-13, 13:58
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NJ
Default Re: Preacher's Kid to Atheist

Lol, Im only 14, but dont think that doesnt mean I havent already wandered the Earth and learned the esoteric secrets of existence. Youd be surprised what Junior High can teach a kid. lol
 #19 
Old 2002-10-14, 11:34
Jacross Jacross is offline
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Default Re: Preacher's Kid to Atheist

14?!?!?

well ill give it to ya. you are a pretty smart 14 year old.
 #20 
Old 2002-10-14, 14:05
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NJ
Default Re: Preacher's Kid to Atheist

Im 21. I was making fun of that other kid, sorry to disappoint you bro. lol
 #21 
Old 2002-10-14, 14:08
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NJ
Default Re: Preacher's Kid to Atheist

I was just actually reading her article and she is an idiot. I wish she would come to Totse.

She said Egyptians had an easy life, and they were the first for a long time to have an ordered concept of an after-life. What the fuck is she talking about?

Ah-ha, that poor dipshit went from being spoon-fed bullshit from dad to being spoonfed bullshit from some egghead teacher who apparently knows nothing.
 #22 
Old 2002-10-16, 01:45
Jacross Jacross is offline
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Default Re: Preacher's Kid to Atheist

oh well i guess you would be pretty smart if you were 14 then?

i found her comments on ancient egyptians rather perplexing as well
 #23 
Old 2002-11-15, 07:53
nz man nz man is offline
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Default Re: Preacher's Kid to Atheist

You go REDZED!!!
 
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