A few years back, I was seriously questionin' my faith. I mean I really had it in for God. And I was talkin' to my uncle about it, and how Heaven and Hell are bullshit. And he told me somethin' that made a lotta sense to me, and still does.

He told me that theres a 50/50 chance: Either there is an afterlife or there isn't (no shit, right?). If there isn't then there's nothing to worry about. But if there is, which would I prefer: To wind up in a place of milk and honey, or to wind up in a vat o' shit.

In short, what does it really cost to believe? If ther's no afterlife, we ain't losing a damn thing. Faith is practically free. But if we're wrong, that's a high fucken price to pay. I wouldn't put Vegas odds on it. Anybody ever read Dante's Inferno? Nasty shite to mess wit'.

So what would you prefer: Shit or honey?

Ah, that's ol' Pascals Sucker Bet again. as an argument, it ultimately fails if you consider it (see link).

Very interesting.

Pascal? Where have I heard that name before?

Let me know while I think of a counter-move...

Well, he's a program language (PASCAL), was a pholosphist and a mathematician. Heres a link for a synopsys of Pascal.

Ah. Now I remember. Christ I hated math in high school. Still do.

I've not thought of a thing yet. Guess I'll have to submit to you... for now.

I still say, though, what does it cost? Noone's askin' for five bucks.

Way I see it, you can still have faith and not go to church on Sunday. No need for tithes and such, just cut out the middleman.

My mom's always pulling that "what do you have to lose" shit on me. I tell her, "My soul, here on earth."

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Originally posted by user X:
My mom's always pulling that "what do you have to lose" shit on me. I tell her, "My soul, here on earth."

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So you believe you have a soul?

A start's a start, I guess.

Who needs self respect anyways? (sarcasm)

I don't think he's talking about the same kind of soul, but I could be wrong.

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Originally posted by rev_DXM:
So what would you prefer: Shit or honey?

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Consider this, if you have you scenario which includes honey, then you are assuming that this particular diety is a moron. You will have psuedo-beliefs for the singular purpose of receiving 'honey' and this moron-diety is going to fall for your act and go along with it. That being the case (your diety is already a moron) why bother at all. Wait til judgement day and say, "Hey bud, it was you and me all the way". You will have conned the moron and had a free ride in this life too.

Nox

You know what I meant Nox: "land of milk and honey".

They're called metaphors. Learned 'em in the first grade.

And you never got back to me on your deism from the "Civil Liberties" post. Still interested.

Its stupid to bet on an afterlife and try and go along with something, and ape a faith out of fear. Especially since you might end up picking the wrong one. What if Jesus was wrong and salvation and eternal life is achieved through Genghis Khan, or Adolf Hitler, of the Pharaohs?

And it's easy to go around posting that people of faith are just "aping something or someone", or are "sheep".

I find that there are more people I'VE run into out there that ape atheism than any other religion.

Spirituality of all kinds are dying out. Catholicism has been hit the hardest, especially after the molestation scandal.

Why is that? Because atheism is the easy way out, not the other way around. It's easy to lose one's faith or never develope one. And in the world we're living in it's not hard to see why.

To have faith is to have strength. To wake up everyday to a world full of murderers, rapists and dime-a-dozen atheists and still believe in God is a true miracle.

And I challenge anyone to back me up. Because you'll notice I don't refer to anyone's idea of an afterlife as "stupid", or call another's deity a "moron".

I've said it before and I'll say it again: In a intelligent debate, it's the mudslinger that winds up makin' an ass of himself.

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Originally posted by rev_DXM:
You know what I meant Nox: "land of milk and honey".

They're called metaphors. Learned 'em in the first grade.

And you never got back to me on your deism from the "Civil Liberties" post. Still interested.

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Relax my friend. Do not get spring loaded to the defensive posture. This is the My God forum, not Bitch and Moan. I will not say that I have never flamed here, but I will say that I seldom do so here. At least on this forum, we have intelligent, deep thinkers and the morons normally stay away.

Having said that, I will now address your point: Ol' Nox does understand metaphor's. I actually use them myself. My reference to honey was the polite way of responding to your statement of "Shit or honey". I prefer to use words other than explitives in my posts. I know that many folks do not agree with me and some even dislike me, however, I do try to use polite language, even in flames. Therefore, I made an allusion to your phrase, by only refering to honey. You over-reacted.

My alzheimers brain has forgotten what it is that you referenced in the "Civil Liberties" post. It is not my style to not answer questions. I do however, try to ignore some of the moronic "I hate Nox crap". I myself hate Nox, why do I need to respond to some 12-year-old thug-wannabe who hates Nox? If you would be so kind as to repeat the question, I will try to answer.

Bottom line. Remember which forum you are on. Very little flaming goes on here. Lower your shields and be prepared for serious intellectual discussions. As for "The jerks", all of us will jump on them.

Nox

>>>>And it's easy to go around posting that people of faith are just "aping something or someone", or are "sheep".<<<<<

Sure is. Its also easy to take a shit, is that wrong? My point was, if youre going to claim to have faith just because "What have i got to lose", then you have nothing but perfidy, and are a hypocrite and a loser.

>>>>>I find that there are more people I'VE run into out there that ape atheism than any other religion.<<<<<

Me too. I consider atheism the greatest herd-driven sheep religion of contemporary America, and most who claim atheist are just trendy mindless drones.

>>>>>Spirituality of all kinds are dying out. <<<<

And this disproves god? Trends?

My apologies for the defensiveness, as I posted somewhere else, I am more and more surprised by the number of rational thnkers 'round these parts; not just a buncha braindead stoners.

As to '22: Good points all. However, I do not believe that spirituality is something that should come from fear, or changing trends. But it is not something to be dismissed for these reasons as well.

And my questions to Nox:

Quote from rev_DXM

"Hey Nox, I know only a little about Deism, maybe you'd let me know a little more? How does it differ from Catholicism/Christianity? Just curious.

But I do know that it means you believe in a God who created the Heavens and the Earth. And the way I see it, it's not presumptious at all, for: "Vengeance is mine sayeth The Lord." Don't ask me from what part of the Bible it came from, it's just one of those things every Catholic knows. But it's pretty self-explanatory.

Like I said though, I don't know your God. Is he like mine?"

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Originally posted by rev_DXM:
"Hey Nox, I know only a little about Deism, maybe you'd let me know a little more? How does it differ from Catholicism/Christianity? Just curious.

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I'm sure that somewhere some oaf has conjured up a diest philosophy/dogma. I have never gone searching for one because it (philosophy/dogma) will have little effect or consequence on my beliefs. As I explained before, I believe in that which is greater than man. The "that" is something I cannot quantify nor adequately define. For those who like the word 'God', they would substitute that word for deism. This in itself presents a problem, because now people expect a list of attributes that we mere mortals are assigning to the omnipotent one. How presumptuous.

My search for 'that' is an almost perpetual quest. Yes, I am fluent in the teachings of multiple protestant denominations. I have a smattering of knowlege about Roman Catholicism, very little of Greek Orthodoxy, and virtually none about Russian Orthodoxy, Armenian, Georgian, et al. However, in stereotyping all these different varieties of Christianity, the overwhelmingly consistant theme is the divinity of the human being known as Jesus Christ.

I reject this claim (of divinity) by using words which are attributed to this person in the New Testament. When Pontius Pilate was questioning Jesus, he (Pontius) asked Jesus the direct question, "Are you the son of God"? Jesus answer (KJV), "Thou sayest". Subsequent translations have given the original Aramaic multiple interpretations, but all interpretations come back to this: Christ did not give a direct yes/no answer to a direct yes/no question. Why? If someone were to have pointed at my father (when he was still alive) and said, "Is that your father"?, and my retort would have been, "That's what you say", you would not now be reading my post because I would be pushing up daisys in a cemetary somewhere. Spare me all the mystical magical Christ was speaking in allegories crap. That drivel is from the apologists who are trying to put their best spin on a lost cause.

You may ask, "Are their other problems that I see with Christianity?" Yes, Yes, and YES. However, I don't even need to bother since the one I mentioned is so incredibally huge, that all the other arguments pale in comparison. Because, if Jesus Christ is not a/the diety, everything else is moot.

Yes, I have dispelled the religion I was taught as a youth. As far as deism now and how that concept stacks up with after life/eternity, those unknowns are the answers which I seek and is why I question others about their beliefs.

I have expounded my theory, now it's your turn.

Nox

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Originally posted by rev_DXM:
Ah. Now I remember. Christ I hated math in high school. Still do.

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Likewise.

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I still say, though, what does it cost? Noone's askin' for five bucks.
Way I see it, you can still have faith and not go to church on Sunday. No need for tithes and such, just cut out the middleman.

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Excerpt from the link:

Let me begin by making it clear that Pascal's wager is not really about believing in God, it's about accepting religion. It might be an old religion with lots of cathedrals and a globe-spanning ministry, or a tiny little cult that meets in someone's front room. At the very least it will be a definition of God that you must accept, along with the infrastructure needed to propagate that definition.

Suppose I decided that Pascal is right, that I should "get religion" just in case. Which one should I choose? On a worldwide basis, roughly equal numbers of people are Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, and Hindu, each having roughly one billion adherents. Another billion have some religion other than one of the big four. The remaining billion or so have no religion. None of the religions call to me. I have no basis for choosing one over the other.

If God does exist, presumably He'll know I don't really believe in Him, that I'm pretending to believe in him on the off chance that He might really exist. If He's willing to accept me if I just "Go through the motions" then I suspect just being a good person will also be enough. Pascal's own answer to this point was that this is why we have churches, to help us grow in faith. In other words, if I submit to a church-approved brainwashing program, they can make me believe. I do not find this comforting.

Personally, I tried Christianity and the more I learned, the less I believed until finally I decided that if it actually works out like it's depicted in the Bible, I woud rather go to hell to be honest.

What exactly is there written in the cosmic laws that obligates God to mandate a specific religious belief for salvation, resulting in denying it for the equivalent of thought crime?

What exactly obligated him to torture himself to appease himself, instead of finding some less bipolar disorder-indicative solution?

The message of Jesus dying for your sins is attractive only until you come to the conclusion that torture is never justified, for anything, including all the sins ever commited by humans put together, which is why civilized countries frown upon its use in interrogations.

Moreover, when an innocent suffers but the guilty go free, a twin injustice is commited. And when people no more guilty than the rest are denied salvation because they cannot bring themselves to believe this ridiculous, contrived, demented twisting of God's nature, the wrong is increased by orders of magnitude a third time.

Three strikes would normally do it for a human and bring a life sentence, but there is unfortunately no deity review board in Christian theology.

The death of an innocent on the cross for the sins of humanity, had it occured, would have been no less than an abomination of divine injustice and not befitting of a benevolent entity at all.

Just why is "whosoever shall believe in Him shall not perish" preferable to "whosoever shalt not be a total asshole shall not perish"? Would such a statement ever find a place in an imperfect, human justice system? Would we admire such a system if it did?

God, being omnipotent, could easily decree that anyone who doesn't specifically want to be a jerk will be saved. He could interpret the desire of a person not to cause undue harm to his fellow humans as 'accepting Jesus' if he so wanted.

Instead, he decrees that you need to believe in one specific religion (at least, that's what Christianity claims--other claims may not be as Biblically supported, but when choosing between a dusty, absurdity-filled ancient book and ethics, common sense and reason...).

This arguably cannot be the system used by a real deity, but reeks of being invented by humans looking for a powerful cult brainwashing tactic. Well, they found it. And it shows. Painfully. To anyone not already indoctrinated.

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Originally posted by user X:
My mom's always pulling that "what do you have to lose" shit on me. I tell her, "My soul, here on earth."

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Religion is more than just simple belief. There is a code of ethics and religious law you have to follow that was made up thousands of years ago in most cases and is nowadays horribly obsolete.

Personally, I think Matt Damon said it best when he said:

"Through the Looking Glass". Now that poem the walrus and the carpenter? That's an indictment of organized religion. The walrus with his girth and good nature, he obviously represents Buddha or with his tusks, the Hindu elephant God lord Genesha. That takes care of your eastern religions. Now the carpenter, which is an obvious reference to Jesus Christ, who was raised a carpenters son, he represents the western religions.

Now in the poem, what do they do? What do they do? They dupe all these oysters into following them and proceed to shuck and devourer these creatures en masse. Now I don't know what it says to you, but to me it says that following these faiths based on mythological figures insures the destruction of ones inner being. Organized religion destroys who we are by inhibiting our actions, by inhibiting our decisions, out of fear of an intangible father figure who shakes a finger at us from thousands of years ago, saying do it or, or I'll fucking spank you!"

I don't give into threats, scare tactics, and propaganda myself. That's exactly what many religions try to do, get you to buckle from fear. I'll applaud the use of reason, rationale, and enlightenment over fear, cultural pressure, threat, propaganda, and other terrorist tactics.

quote:

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Originally posted by rev_DXM:

Why is that? Because atheism is the easy way out, not the other way around. It's easy to lose one's faith or never develope one. And in the world we're living in it's not hard to see why.

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Hell no. It's easier to subscribe to a set of precincieved notions that existed thousands of years ago and promise you pie in the sky so you'll eat their shit now for fear of going to a bad place. All you have to do, like I have seen many a person do, is blindly adhere to what your specific religion tells you, never take an objective look at it and strictly remain subject to your belief.

The way I broke out of organized brainwash is by abandoning the pre-existing believf in the validity of it for a moment and taking a hard objective look at it. Ultimately, it couldn't stand up because it was fundamentally biased and unfair.

Why does every *other* cult in existence *also* say things similar to "you're worthless and deserving of painful death if you're not a member"? *Why* do they depend on indoctrination and brainwashing tactics which exploit human psychology to convert people and reform their thought patterns?

The mind is like a parachute, it works better when it's open.

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To have faith is to have strength. To wake up everyday to a world full of murderers, rapists and dime-a-dozen atheists and still believe in God is a true miracle.

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It's wishful thinking, nothing "miraculous" about it. There are still people to this day that believe the earth is flat despite the overwhelming evidence bitchslapping them to the moon and back. Is it miraculous that they believe in spite of overwhelming evidence being counterfactual to their claim? Hell no.

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Originally posted by Spirit of '22:
I consider atheism the greatest herd-driven sheep religion of contemporary America, and most who claim atheist are just trendy mindless drones.

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Those people are just stupid "down with the system!" anarchist kewl wannabe nonconformists. To actually seriously consider the existence of God/Gods/Goddesses/Deii and not believe in them requires quite a bit of critical thinking when your in a culture that inundates you with them and bombards you with a specific religion at a gullibly young age. Traditional religion is a hard thing to break in most instances. 90% of the time you can tell what religion a person is by simply asking them what religion their parents are.

quote:

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Originally posted by rev_DXM:
Anybody ever read Dante's Inferno? Nasty shite to mess wit'.

So what would you prefer: Shit or honey?

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Fear is the greatest mind control weapon of history, every totalitarian megalomaniac uses it, and so do poor sales people. Shit or Honey is just another negative tactic designed to scare the gullible into submission. And Dante's inferno, have you ever read or considered that? Nothing more than a fictional piece of propaganda used by the mind control freaks since the middle ages without one shred of evidence to support it.

The logical outcome of a benevolent creation is life. Death is as much a failure of the creator as the created, for if an almighty, omnipotent being were to create a creature designed to live forever, any fault in that creature remains the responsibility of the creator. For the creator to then condemn the creature for the mistakes of creation would reveal a being similar to the gnostic demiurge, a flawed god.

A flawed god is no god, and those who worship that flawed god would soon find their heaven a hell, and desire the oblivion of non-existence over the blindness of injustice.

quote:

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Originally posted by rev_DXM:
So you believe you have a soul?

A start's a start, I guess.

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How much do you reckon I'd fetch on Ebay for my soul?

'Just why is "whosoever shall believe in Him shall not perish" preferable to "whosoever shalt not be a total asshole shall not perish"?'
_____________________________________________

Believe it or not, I have a very liberal approach to my religion, so much so that it might resemble Protestantism.

I too became disenchanted by most of the dogma and inequality inside the Catholic Church. Which is why I haven't been inside one in about three years.

I used to hate going and seeing people dead asleep in the pews (myself included). People of absolutely no faith blindly worshipping Christ because they figured an hour a week insured them a one way ticket to Heaven. People who after leaving mass, would beat their kids in the parking lot or yell at their spouses. And most of those people are the ones who will be the first to jump to arms and defend the faith most adamantly, and most incorrectly.

I also don't pay much attention, and never have to too much of what was in the Bible or its irregularities. There are a lot of good things in there, particularly the New Testament, but I figure anything that old is going to be full of "plot holes" and be a little one sided (no shit )

So as Magneto put it, "whosoever shalt not be a total asshole shall not perish", is pretty much how I play it. I believe that by having Faith in God, and not fucking up (by the way, Nox, I very much like to use expletives in my writing), I'm at least a little closer to gettin' a shot at Heaven. Or as I tell people, believe in God and don't kill anybody.

Do I think my religion, Christianity, is the one true religion? Not necessarily. It was Will Rogers who said, "Whatever you are, be a good one."

And this is also how I play it. I think faith of all types is a beautiful thing to witness. Be you Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Hinduist, Muslim, etc; I do draw the line on your David Koresh-esque cult. Oh, and Scientology. Anything Hollywood embraces can't be holy.

Is this a cop-out? No. I exclude cults because every rational human being knows that they're bad news. Does this mean I think you HAVE to believe in one of the big, mainstream, accepted religions? Again, not necessarily. I think any belief in a "God" that is the creator of the individual and all things known and unknown to man, who is the symbol of a universally objective "right" (right and wrong are objective, it is folly and chaos to think otherwise) and who will reward those objective just in the end and punish the wrong.

Maybe this is Deism. And perhaps this is where Nox is coming from, I could be wrong.

I also hate people who try to explain away religion with logic. "Well, there is no scientific proof for the existence of a God...". You know the type.

Man needs to realize that there are some things that cannot be explained by convention. There is another plane of existence out there that transcends logic and science, and it is a wonderful thing when one can accept that. Again, not a cop-out.

So in the end, belive what you want, as long as you aren't an ass-hole about it. As for me, that is Christianity. I believe and love in Christ; he is a friend and mentor to me. I try to live my life in the way that would make him proud, and not be an ass-hole about it.

I think Scientology originated from a bar bet.

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Originally posted by rev_DXM:



So in the end, belive what you want, as long as you aren't an ass-hole about it. As for me, that is Christianity. I believe and love in Christ; he is a friend and mentor to me. I try to live my life in the way that would make him proud, and not be an ass-hole about it.

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Good to read your post rev-DXM, refreshing is the best adjective I can think of.
Salutations:-)

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Originally Posted by Dark_Magneto:

'Just why is "whosoever shall believe in Him shall not perish" preferable to "whosoever shalt not be a total asshole shall not perish"?'

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Those who believe in 'Him', believe in reason and logic, I believe there is reason and logic apparent in the universe. The properties of Hydrogen are so finely balanced and the maths adds up to a grand anthromorphic answer to the question of life.

Are we the result of an accidental evolution? I think not, the facts of science point to a higher power, a higher level of being.

Those who believe in Reason and Logic are saved in the here and now! Lives are enhanced - by the realisation of a more advanced intelligence at work in the universe.

Every hour of the day yields the fruits of Reason and Logic, the application of these principles gave Greece and Rome their power, the power to get along with each other, to live in peace.

At the moment of passing over the "not be a total asshole" will be wondering .......
The believer in Reason and Logic will know that their unique individual energy has the potential to go on eternally. Our fingerprints are unique, our dna is absolutely unique, we are each a unique vibration of energy. Energy is eternal.

Hello
"The only problem with an afterlife is that
you end up with NO life at all...
If there is really an afterlife then I hope that we can stell EXCHANGE our high Standards of Respect that we shown each other Here..."Now fuck off and get away from
MY Sheep Herd...

Khaine