I hope someone out there has the answer, because I'm definitely not smart enough to answer this myself.

Forget whether or not god and an afterlife exist for a moment and just pretend that we know for certain that there is no god and there is no afterlife. When we die, that's it. No more you.

Now, non-existance doesn't sound so bad to me. It's not like you'll be around to cry about it. You won't even know you've died. You'll feel that sharp pain in your chest or notice that that bus is coming at you awfully fast and then that's it, nothing else.

This is what I have come to personally believe happens when you die, and from some of the other posts on this forum I know that I'm not alone here. My question here is how does this belief affect the others out there who see things this way? Death basically erases everything you spend your life building. All the money/power/cars/women/etc. you've built your entire life trying to accumulate means nothing. You may have beautiful and loving children to carry on your family name, but what good is that doing you? You may have been the one to finally bring lasting peace to the world, but do you really care what state you leave the world in when you can't even care?

Shouldn't I be trying to maximize my pleasure during the time I have? Screw everyone else. The universe could implode the moment I die for all I'll care. Forget about the preserving the environment, because I'll be long gone before it becomes a serious problem. I should just kill and steal and screw other people over as long as it benefits me and I can get away with it.

How am I supposed to remain a happy and functioning member of society, if in the end death will just negate everything? I guess I'm just a very selfish person, but I cannot help but see things this way. If I don't exist, then absolutely nothing else matters. How do others out there who believe death is the end cope with this? I've been taught all my life that I should do "good" and help others, and I almost instinctually lean that way. But, rationally I can't see how doing "good" is directly benefiting me.

Man, after re-reading this post I think it's pretty incoherent. Sorry for that, but it's late and out of frustration I seem to have just dumped it all out in one big pile. I hope that others can get through it and have some insightful comments for me. Please help me sort this out.

Theres evidence of peoples conciousness living on after their body has died, so youre entire founding assumption is wrong and will corrupt any thoughts thereafter.

What evidence would that be? There is no real evidence for saying there is any kind of life after death. In the absense of concrete proof, I must assume that there is nothing.

This is irrelevant however. I'm not trying to convince you to see the afterlife as I do. I wish for you to pretend you see no possible afterlife, as I do. Given this, how would you see your life? Would you be self-serving like I described, or something else? What I described is the way I currently feel and I am not at all happy about this. I just wish to see how others would react to no afterlife.

You dont need an after-ife for purpose. Rewarding you for being good is kinda shitty anyway, it just breeds self-serving slaves who behave like dogs looking for a bone.

I want the world of my children to be awesome. Where I go when I die is irrelevant; this world will be here and they'll be in it.

is there any concrete evidence that there is not life after death?

this whole life business has all the calling cards of a prank to me. think about it, we come spilling out of some obscene oriface, covered in crap, with no idea how we got here and no idea whats going to happen.

another point, okay, lets assume there is no afterlife, no spirit, none of that stuff. we are just animals then right? smart animals, who can walk around and talk and read and stuff. okay, then how do you explain all those completely anti-biological impulses. how could a species with instincts that allow it to abort fetuses make it to the top of the food chain? why do we love or laugh or cry or get mad at silly things that have no bearing on any biological aspect of our lives whatsoever?

In reply to Spirit of 22's last post:

Yes, your children will most likely outlive you. There children will outlive them, and on and on. But if I end up not existing, what is my motivation? In the end, it doesn't matter whether or not I have children. I end up exactly the same no matter what I do. I just want my life to have some kind of purpose. Having children is not enough, because they too will soon be nothing. Death erases everything. Why bother existing?

Sounds like a little hedonism here.

Nox

In reply to sedqon:

You're asking me to prove that something does not exist. This is impossible. I cannot prove that there is no afterlife, and nobody else can either. I also cannot prove that there isn't a santa claus or easter bunny. You can never prove that something does not exist. You can, however, refuse to believe something people assert is true (like an afterlife) without a shred of evidence to prove it. Like I said before, in the absense of proof or even some type of credible evidence I must believe that there is nothing.

How materialistic.

If your life goals are money/power/women/cars/etc, why don't you end it now, please.

In reply to nox:

I just looked up hedonism (I had no idea what it meant). If I understand it correctly, it's basically the pursuit of personal pleasure over everything else. Is that correct?

Well, what else is there? If I was nothing, became something temporarily, and will soon return to nothing then I might as well try to maximize my pleasure during this brief time. Any other suggestions? Should I help old ladies across the street with my time? Work hard and design a newer/better whatchamacalit? It all means nothing in the end.

In response to malaria:

I never said that money/power/life/women were my life's goals. My life currently has no goals. I'm posting here to try and find some. But what else is there? This is seriously how I see things, and I am not trying to troll anyone here. I myself am not happy about my conclusions, and I'm hoping for someone to show me the light. For someone to say that special something that will make it all click for me. I'm lost here.

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Originally posted by ytrewq:
In response to malaria:

I never said that money/power/life/women were my life's goals. My life currently has no goals. I'm posting here to try and find some. But what else is there? This is seriously how I see things, and I am not trying to troll anyone here. I myself am not happy about my conclusions, and I'm hoping for someone to show me the light. For someone to say that special something that will make it all click for me. I'm lost here.

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Sounds like you're looking for a saviour,, don't know if there's any here. lol
But in response to your original post - Man that's why this world is so stuffed up, so many people thinking just that way, but as you said it can't be proven or disproven - if life after death, that is if you discount the huge number of experiences by people revived from death.
http://www.near-death.com/

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Originally posted by ytrewq:

Forget whether or not god and an afterlife exist for a moment and just pretend that we know for certain that there is no god and there is no afterlife. When we die, that's it. No more you.

Now, non-existance doesn't sound so bad to me. It's not like you'll be around to cry about it. You won't even know you've died. You'll feel that sharp pain in your chest or notice that that bus is coming at you awfully fast and then that's it, nothing else.

This is what I have come to personally believe happens when you die, and from some of the other posts on this forum I know that I'm not alone here. My question here is how does this belief affect the others out there who see things this way? Death basically erases everything you spend your life building. All the money/power/cars/women/etc. you've built your entire life trying to accumulate means nothing. You may have beautiful and loving children to carry on your family name, but what good is that doing you? You may have been the one to finally bring lasting peace to the world, but do you really care what state you leave the world in when you can't even care?

Shouldn't I be trying to maximize my pleasure during the time I have? Screw everyone else. The universe could implode the moment I die for all I'll care. Forget about the preserving the environment, because I'll be long gone before it becomes a serious problem. I should just kill and steal and screw other people over as long as it benefits me and I can get away with it.

How am I supposed to remain a happy and functioning member of society, if in the end death will just negate everything? I guess I'm just a very selfish person, but I cannot help but see things this way. If I don't exist, then absolutely nothing else matters. How do others out there who believe death is the end cope with this? I've been taught all my life that I should do "good" and help others, and I almost instinctually lean that way. But, rationally I can't see how doing "good" is directly benefiting me.

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It looks like you have just identified the need for religion and why it was invented.

There is an ancient Japaneese philosophy I read awhile back in Hagakure: Book of the Samurai that I found inspiring. It goes like this:

There is surely nothing other than the single purpose of the present moment. A man's whole life is a succession of moment after moment. If one fully understands the present moment, there will be nothing else to do, and nothing else to pursue. Live being true to the single purpose of the moment.

Everyone lets the present moment slip by, then looks for it as though he thought it were somewhere else. No one seems to have noticed this fact. But grasping this firmly, one must pile experience upon experience. And once one has come to this understanding he will be a different person from that point on, though he may not always bear it in mind.

I'm kind of like that myself, but then again I realize that the present moment is ever-fleeting. My philosophy goes like this:

Learn from the past, live in the present, and plan for the future.

When you die, If you simply cease to exist, then your life was good for the time you were here and the people you influenced during that time. Personally, I don't like the idea that we cease to exist after we die, but that seems to be the indication, doesn't it? I mean, what was it like before you were born? Exactly. I'm thinking myself, from a completely neutral and logical standpoint, that the same state we came from is the same state that we ultimately return to. That state being complete non-existence.

If life is over once you die, it seems pretty cheap in the grand scheme of things. I mean, your heare, you live for awhile and accomplish whatever, then you cease to exist and never ever come back. It is for this possibility that you should live your life to the fullest extent possible and extend it as long as possible. The longer you live, the more present moments you have, the more you can achieve to make your future moments that much more fulfilling.

This is the main reason that I hate to see people work their whole lives, spend their physical prime working in some job as a wage slave, and then after busting their ass for their whole life while they were in their prime, they can now enjoy some last "golden years" to themselves before they die. I don't wanna go out like that. That's just downright sad. It is for that reason that I have been investigating investment options and business oppurtunities since I was 13. Get the cash, get the residual income, and use it to enhance your life.

There is plenty more tolife than money, but when you have it, you have one of lifes biggest problems covered and your now free to do what you want to do. You can now live your life instead of using all your time to keep yourself alive in hopes for those far-off retirement years in which you finally have time to yourself that you might not ever make it to.

So my overall point is, you get 1 chance and one chance only at life, make the most of it. Don't ever take it lying down. When you have done your best and exhausted all options to try to make whay you want of your life, even if you didn't reach your goal, which most people don't, you can rest in the fact that you did everything you could to try to get there. After I have done all I can and didn't achieve the desired result I was aiming for, I become que sera sera at that point. You can only do what you can do and that's that.

In reply to Dark_Magneto:

Thank you for that very well thought-out post. I do wish I could be religious, but I cannot believe in something on faith alone. I have no faith. Without a religion, I'm struggling to find some higher purpose to my life. I really feel the need for that purpose in a reality that sure doesn't appear to have one.

I guess having no purpose or goal is safe. There's no way to screw it up, because no matter what you do it's all the same in the end. I could become a great humanitarian or the next Hitler and it doesn't matter one bit.

I can always find things to help fill that vacuum. As you mentioned, the pursuit of money is a good place to start I guess. After I get enough of it, then I can finally do whatever it is I want to do. Maybe invest that money and make more money. Or use it to start a business, so I can make more money.

I could start my own religion (for the tax write-offs of course). My religion will be called the Big Fucking Nothing religion, or BFN for short. Its central tenet will be, "Thou shalt do whatever the hell thy want, because there is nothing else." Bet I get alot of followers. My church requires nothing from its flock, no mass on Sunday and no praying to invisible sky persons. The only thing my church will require is huge donations every month from the faithful. Each new believer will be required to bring a canceled check to church the first time so we can setup the monthly ACH withdrawl from their bank accounts. Hey, I've gotta make that precious money somewhere!

Of course while my church asks nothing of its flock (except money) it doesn't really give anything either. Other religions give eternal life, higher purpose, heaven and hell, etc. Sure it can't give you those things, but my religion will never lie to you just to help you sleep better at night. My religion will never try to control your actions. You want to kill, then go kill. You want to have sex with your neighbor's wife, then go ahead. It doesn't even really matter if she wants to or not. Everything is fair game in my religion. You and your desires are all that matters, because there is nothing else.

oops. sorry bout the double post.

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Originally posted by ytrewq:
In reply to nox: Is that correct?

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That is correct. My singular intent was to show you that your philosophy not only has a name and exists, but has existed for thousands of years. Is this to imply that I think the philosophy is wrong/bad. I make no judgement in that respect. I know that what I perceive as the major weakness of the philosophy (it is exceedingly selfish in nature) is inconsistent with the type person I am.

Nox

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Originally posted by Nox:
That is correct. My singular intent was to show you that your philosophy not only has a name and exists, but has existed for thousands of years. Is this to imply that I think the philosophy is wrong/bad. I make no judgement in that respect. I know that what I perceive as the major weakness of the philosophy (it is exceedingly selfish in nature) is inconsistent with the type person I am.

Nox

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cool. i found the reply with quote button for this board!!

First off let me just say that I am not trying to attack anyone on this board. I'm not trying to make people see things my way either, I truely do wish that I didn't see things this way. Re-reading some of my old posts, I noticed that I sometimes come off rather mean. I'm not trying to influence or hurt anyone here. But, I am angry. I'm angry at myself for not being able to make sense of all of this. I'm angry at the whole of reality for not making sense to me.

Now, on to your reply. I do appreciate your posting, because I new nothing of hedonism before you did. As for me, I do not consider myself a hedonist. I do not consider myself anything else either. I see some truth in hedonism however. I think that we are all pretty selfish.

You mention in your post that hedonism doesn't fit for you because it is inconsistent with your nature. I assume you mean that you are not that selfish. You genuinely enjoy helping others. The key words here are "you" and "enjoy." I think the human being has a remarkable ability to feel empathy for others. We have the ability to feel bad when others do. We put ourselves in their place and this makes us feel bad if they do. Selfless acts for others do help them. There is nothing wrong with that. But by helping them, you are indirectly helping yourself. Even if helping another puts you in danger or causes you some pain/discomfort, you are still receiving that "good" feeling.

My question for you is, how is this not selfish? Sure your actions end up benefiting another, but I believe your motives are entirely selfish in nature. If instead of feeling good from helping others, you felt bad would you still do it? Lets say that everytime you helped another human being it felt like cutting off a finger or it made you feel depressed. You receive no good feelings from the act. Would you still do it? Really think about it. I believe you would not. Human beings only perform acts that either directly or indirectly benefit them. That is selfish. Can you give me an example of a purely unselfish act?

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Originally posted by ytrewq:
My question for you is, how is this not selfish? Sure your actions end up benefiting another, but I believe your motives are entirely selfish in nature.

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I am not totally altruistic. However, I am not totally selfish. What makes your position difficult to answer is the premise that states that what I do for others indirectly benefits me. While I don't like that premise, there is an element of truth. I help total strangers because total strangers have helped me. A good friend of mine told me that all I was doing was keeping good karma flowing.

By your definition (with the premise) you define me (actually, the whole population of the world) as hedonistic.

I do not define myself that way. Now what this boils down to is perception. Because of that, my perception wins. It wins because, it is MY philosophy which counts to me. Your opinion counts to you, but I live within the confines of my philosophy, and I do not feel that I am a hedonist.

Nox

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Originally posted by Nox:
I do not define myself that way. Now what this boils down to is perception. Because of that, my perception wins. It wins because, it is MY philosophy which counts to me. Your opinion counts to you, but I live within the confines of my philosophy, and I do not feel that I am a hedonist.

Nox

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Fair enough. Your original post just mentioned that I sounded hedonistic. I'm just stating that if you look at it that way, we're all hedonistic.

Sure, I'm a selfish bastard. I make no appologies about it, because it's true. Does this mean I never give money to those less fortunate? No. Does this mean I never help old ladies across the street? No. I can feel empathy just like everyone else, and I do enjoy that boost that comes from doing "good" just like everyone else.

I would say that by default I am a good person. I was raised that way, and it's ingrained in me. I have to really think about it to be a selfish bastard. So, should I just go through life not thinking and let my programming take care of everything, or should I analyze my motives and question my reality? I think I would be much happier doing the first, but I just can't help it.

The closest thing i've ever seen to "proof" of life after death is that of children inexplicably recalling past-lives and doing/saying things they otherwise wouldn't have been able to had they not had past-lives.

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Originally posted by ytrewq:
In reply to Dark_Magneto:

Thank you for that very well thought-out post. I do wish I could be religious, but I cannot believe in something on faith alone. I have no faith.

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Me either. I ultimately found religious faith to be a useless proposition because it only helps to delude the individual into believing despite the lack of proof and in spite of counterfactual evidence to their claims.

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Without a religion, I'm struggling to find some higher purpose to my life. I really feel the need for that purpose in a reality that sure doesn't appear to have one.

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The biological purpose of life is to perpetuate. That is, reproduce. Your actual "purpose" is what you make of it.

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I guess having no purpose or goal is safe. There's no way to screw it up, because no matter what you do it's all the same in the end. I could become a great humanitarian or the next Hitler and it doesn't matter one bit.

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It doesn't appear as if it ultimately means anything in the end, but who knows.

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I can always find things to help fill that vacuum. As you mentioned, the pursuit of money is a good place to start I guess. After I get enough of it, then I can finally do whatever it is I want to do. Maybe invest that money and make more money. Or use it to start a business, so I can make more money.

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Nothing wrong with money as long as you don't let it go to your head. Some people do this without even realizing it.

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I could start my own religion (for the tax write-offs of course). My religion will be called the Big Fucking Nothing religion, or BFN for short. Its central tenet will be, "Thou shalt do whatever the hell thy want, because there is nothing else." Bet I get alot of followers. My church requires nothing from its flock, no mass on Sunday and no praying to invisible sky persons. The only thing my church will require is huge donations every month from the faithful. Each new believer will be required to bring a canceled check to church the first time so we can setup the monthly ACH withdrawl from their bank accounts. Hey, I've gotta make that precious money somewhere!

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Hehe, I think we have all considered making our own religion at some point in time, but I am ultimately against it if you have to brainwash people into believing with propaganda because it is the same thing I had to reason myself out of.

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Of course while my church asks nothing of its flock (except money) it doesn't really give anything either. Other religions give eternal life, higher purpose, heaven and hell, etc. Sure it can't give you those things, but my religion will never lie to you just to help you sleep better at night. My religion will never try to control your actions. You want to kill, then go kill. You want to have sex with your neighbor's wife, then go ahead. It doesn't even really matter if she wants to or not. Everything is fair game in my religion. You and your desires are all that matters, because there is nothing else.

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That's more of a philosophy than an actual religion. I was thinking that if I actually started my own reliion, it would be a compilation of philosophy.

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The closest thing i've ever seen to "proof" of life after death is that of children inexplicably recalling past-lives and doing/ saying things they otherwise wouldn't have been able to had they not had past-lives.

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Those can actually be products of a fertile imagination or delusional mind.

[This message has been edited by Dark_Magneto (edited 09-26-2002).]

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Originally posted by Imp Of Inebriety:
The closest thing i've ever seen to "proof" of life after death is that of children inexplicably recalling past-lives and doing/saying things they otherwise wouldn't have been able to had they not had past-lives.

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I used to go along with that idea too until the whole "Repressed Memory Syndrome" garbage came out. Only then did I really start to believe in the power of the mind.

Nox

ytrewq.... I would just like to state you are not alone in your feelings I used to consider myself an atheist but have since moved to the position of agnostic. Anyways... the whole idea of human nature at its core is selfish and theirs no such thing as a "selfless" act due to the good feeling about oneself one will normally recieve after doing so... I have also come to believe for quite some time.

As for how too deal with these feelings you have I cant really say. But yes I aswell feel my purpose is too just try too be happy however I have come to feed off of helping others aswell. And as for the whole religeon debate I switched too being agnostic when I finally decided that the idea of "everything" and beyond theres always going too be something else in my mind well say their is a "god" what created that? etc. is just too incomprehensibly large for my feeble brain to truely comprehend and I more or less didnt totally give up but rather stopped letting the question bother me Ill find out like everyone else when I die wich truely shall be a great adventure. For now Im just going too try and live my life the best I can.

Im not sure if these ramblings are of any help at all but I figure Ill post em up anyways hopefully you'll beable too pull something from them. My advice try and figure out what will make you happy find your passion in life I know its not always easy and try to work twards that. Also this doesnt necessarily mean screwing other people over at every turn because it seems your concious wont allow for it without a feeling of guilt and therefor its not really serveing you too well is it?

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Originally posted by Frey Grimrod:
Anyways... the whole idea of human nature at its core is selfish and theirs no such thing as a "selfless" act due to the good feeling about oneself one will normally recieve after doing so.

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Sacrificing yourself to save someone doesn't seem selfish to me.

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Originally posted by Dark_Magneto:
Sacrificing yourself to save someone doesn't seem selfish to me.

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I think every act a human makes can be reduced to some pleasure or avoidance of pain by the person doing the act.

Sacrificing yourself to save someone else definitely sounds noble and selfless. It's hard to say exactly what is going on in the mind of someone about to sacrifice themselves for another, but I'll give it a stab. Maybe the savior cannot bear the thought of living on having done nothing to save that person. They knew that there was something they could have done, but they didn't. Empathy breeds guilt. This is pain avoidance. Maybe the savior was religious and their last waking throught was, "this will surely get me into heaven." The key word there is "me." I won't argue that these thoughts are even concious. If the act took place in a matter of seconds, then there would be little time to rationally think about the actions of the savior. Their "gut reaction" was to save that person. I believe that even the unconcious mind follows these selfish rules of pleasure seeking and pain avoidance. But, then again, what do I know.

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Originally posted by Frey Grimrod:
I used to consider myself an atheist but have since moved to the position of agnostic. ...

And as for the whole religeon debate I switched too being agnostic when I finally decided that the idea of "everything" and beyond theres always going too be something else in my mind well say their is a "god" what created that? etc. is just too incomprehensibly large for my feeble brain to truely comprehend ...

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I don't think I could even be agnostic. Their whole position is sitting on the fence: "Things could be this way, but don't quote me on this! (haha) They could be the other was as well. I just don't know. Therefore, I will make no assertions one way or the other." Now this sounds like a nice safe position, but humans must make assertions in order to move forward. We take the evidence that we have available, and we make an assertion that what follows from that evidence is "most likely" true. Sure it is possible that it is wrong, but if we think that 1 + 1 might not equal 2, then we're fucked. We have to have faith in something. My faith is in science and rational thought. Things that can be proven "beyond a reasonable doubt." I have no faith in jesus or god or the afterlife or whatever, because they cannot be proven "beyond a reasonable doubt."

I hope that the reader sees what I'm trying to say here. Sure we have to have faith in some things in order to function. I just refuse to have faith in things that are obviously fantasy with no proof behind them. The agnostic is just giving credability to these fantasies by not actively fighting them. Are you agnostic about santa claus and the easter bunny too? If not, then why are you agnostic about god?

I appologize if I seem a bit hostile here, but I feel strongly that agnostics are generally very hypocritical and not very useful in solving the mysteries of our reality. These are only my opinions though, and you do have the right to yours as well. Thank you for your post.

I don't think you would be a completely rational person in everything you do, and scientific anaylisis of every situation wouldn't occur either, we know that Santa Claus doen't exist, but we don't know if God exists, so why not say I don't know, in this particular case it's quite justified, but I see your piont also, if agnostics streched there way of thinking to everything in life, and the world was ruled by them it might be something to worry about, but as it is I can't say if agnostics rule the world or not, and don't quote me on that, I don't even know if I just said that anyway, where'd my breakfast go?

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Originally posted by evolove:
I don't think you would be a completely rational person in everything you do, and scientific anaylisis of every situation wouldn't occur either, we know that Santa Claus doen't exist, but we don't know if God exists, so why not say I don't know, in this particular case it's quite justified, but I see your piont also, if agnostics streched there way of thinking to everything in life, and the world was ruled by them it might be something to worry about, but as it is I can't say if agnostics rule the world or not, and don't quote me on that, I don't even know if I just said that anyway, where'd my breakfast go?

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We do know that santa claus doesn't exist, but we don't know about god? How is this so? They both exist as story tales that we learn as children. God is a more popular story than santa claus, no doubt, but what proof is there to say that god exists and santa claus doesn't? You sound like you have proof, so what is it?

What I was trying to say about agnostics is that they seem to reserve this one philosophy for god/afterlife, but do not apply it to similar tales like santa claus. Like I said, god is more popular a story, but it has no more proof than the santa claus story. So why be agnostic about god and not santa claus? That's inconsistent.

Santa Claus isn't the only explanation for receiving loads of gifts.
God (that is, an accurate interpretation of God) is the only possible explanation for the begining of everything physical, and the rules of how physical matter knows how to 'exist'
Hmmm i sense a certain questions arrival

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Originally posted by Beany:
Santa Claus isn't the only explanation for receiving loads of gifts.
God (that is, an accurate interpretation of God) is the only possible explanation for the begining of everything physical, and the rules of how physical matter knows how to 'exist'
Hmmm i sense a certain questions arrival

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There are many different and competing explainations for god out there. Which specific one are you refering to? I might also add that it is entirely possible for the universe and physical matter to exist without any "god." There are many possibilities. Some of them include a "god" and some do not. Sounds kind of like receiving presents to me.

If that was true I'd kill myself just to get a head start in being nothing.

ytrweq and dark_magneto

To say that because you will cease to exist after you die means that what you do now is meaningless... this is misleading.

You are drawing the state of "nothing" (that state you will be in after you die) into your concept of life (that state you are in before you die). Your purpose should not be influenced by the impending arrival of your nonexistence. They are two seperate paradigms with no relation to each other. So, we don't say "what I do on this planet doesn't matter one bit" because it does matter. Not after you die, sure. But NOW.

"The act itself should be enjoyed if only so that it is useful for this reason." Here is HOW your purpose should be carried out. With happiness. Why? Because we understand the state of happiness to be superior to a state of sadness. We like it more. BUT, this doesn't mean we HAVE to turn to hedonism. Do those things which will make you happy - and remember, hedonism won't necessarily make you happy.

Just because doing good things makes you happy can be seen in a selfish light, doesn't make them bad things. THAT you are the kind of person who enjoys doing good deeds is the thing THAT is good.

Why is it good? Because it makes you happy. Why do good deeds make you happy? Because thats the way you are. Don't worry about it. Just bring up some more nice people.

Notice that if you can fully appreciate the rough philosophy outlined above you cease to be able to bring judgement against other people's actions. You do end up with the ability to say "I don't like that" which gives you your motivation to change those people's behaviour.

This, to my mind, is how to solve your "Motivation" problem.

Sorry, some of my turns of phrase are a little difficult to unwind, they DO make sense if you read them a couple of times, however.

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Originally posted by 123Tool:
[B]

To say that because you will cease to exist after you die means that what you do now is meaningless... B]

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is, as 123Tool points out so eloquently, misleading in a philosophical sense. It is also absolutely wrong in a biological sense. We, and all other living things, exist for one purpose only - to pass our genes on to another generation. If you look at the things we do, they are all aimed at transferring DNA strands from a male to a female, and then ensuring that the resulting offspring survive to do the same thing, as far as we can influence that.

Power, prestige, motor cars, national anthems, uniforms, etc. ad nauseum serve only to enhance the sexual viability of one or more entities at the expense of others. This is a simple demonstration of nature selecting the strongest or most determined genes to survive. So, ipso facto, the material possesions and the prestige one gathers during life serve a usefull purpose if they assist one to pass one's genes on. Once that goal, and the consequent protection of your progeny has been achieved, taking it all with you is irrelevant, as indeed is ones existence or non existence after death.

What is more, carrying out that basic programmed task is fun, we all enjoy it and generally can't get enough.Furthermore, it is a happy thing, which ties right on back into the post quoted. That is the ultimate proof of the theory that the only reason we exist is to procreate.

Carrying out your biological duty does not give meaning to your life anymore than surving 'till your death does. It is what we are supposed to do... problem is with intelligent (ha! ignorance is bliss) thought we can now rationalise ourselves out of these useless instincts... but as 123tool said, what has death got to do with now, to me the fact that death is so final and certain adds a lot of light on the now... a lot more than I see on some people who think this is just a test or gateway to whatever. There is a lot in this world to keep you going.

Hi Govinda, what's your purpose? What do you use as your motivation?

I liked this thread.

123tool experience.
To say pleasure would be lying - I like all experience (maybe not always at the time it happened). I like new things and new ideas.
Couldn't really give you a why though... it just feels right. My next experience is what keeps me motivated and it mostly if not completely dominates my motives. (semi )Nihilism promotes this.
What about you?

like or liked?

govinda,

I suspect I am made up of a complex warren of desires, or inclinations to aquire desires. How these desires came about is an extremely difficult and thankless task to unravel. So I don't waste TOO much time with it.

However, I have noticed that I am probably composed of (roughly) short term desires and long term desires. Some of my long term desires are to become (in my eyes) a better person, and to influence as many other people as possible to (in my eyes) do the same.

Keeping in mind that often my short term desires cloud my judgmement in these areas; but that's ok because sometimes I have to remind myself that the act itself must be enjoyed.

I believe, in general, people could make their motivation happiness, once they recognise that it is a choice to be made, not a goal to be reached. For the majority of people, one person's happiness does not equal another's misery. And the majority could bring their inlfuence to bear, in all cases.

What do you think?

I like this thread
liked because it was on the second page and I thought it was dying.

I suspect I am made up of a complex warren of desires, or inclinations to aquire desires. How these desires came about is an extremely difficult and thankless task to unravel. So I don't waste TOO much time with it.


how true is that... yeah I try not to waste TOO much time also.

You said what I meant... just a lot better. I said experience and you said happiness - which is what my good or bad experience brings me.
I agree that most people could make their motivation happiness if like you said they quit thinking they are not allowed to... for reasons due to their belief or lack of or whatever. I wonder why people feel they are not allowed to decide such things? but that is a silly question that only seems simple from my pov.

And the majority could bring their inlfuence to bear, in all cases.

do you mean the majority should be happy at the sacrifice of the few? I know this is a loaded question.

[This message has been edited by govinda (edited 11-17-2002).]

The majority of people don't like serial killers roaming loose. Serial killers would prefer their freedom was not encroached upon. Hence the happiness of the majority (in this case) dominates the minority's.

My argument presupposes that most people do not take direct pleasure from the suffering of others. This is the majority that I feel has the right to bring their influence to bear - even at the expense of those few who DO enjoy the pain of others.

I know what you mean about deciding to be happy. Once you've made the choice yourself, it's difficult to explain to someone else that hasn't that they can any time they want to. Like trying to explain colour to a blind person.

The fact remains, happiness is a skill like any other - I am, however, aware that happiness for some leads to the suffering of others. I want to cover myself along that route by saying the majority can dominate the happiness stakes, without any obvious immoral consequences.

Presupposing that the majority aren't motivated by the suffering in others.