This question goes out to those of you who may be in the occult. I am curious to understand why it is that someone would seek spiritual answers through Tarot cards or some other type of divination; practice magickal rituals, etc. if one is an atheistic Satanist? Do people in the occult acknowledge a spiritual entity beyond the physical realm? If so, what is the foundation for that belief?

I have been researching the writings of Anton LaVey. The dude was quite intelligent. He is quoted by Blanche Barton that his version of rituals are performed for emotional appeal. But in light of the Black Mass and some other of his rituals seem to identify a spiritual entity outside of his sphere of power. He has stated on numerous occasions that Satan is just a mythological god that is used to smite the face of hypocritical Christians; who are people of double-standards. I can understand this. But somehow his views seem contradictory somewhat. Can any of you identify with me on this?

Based on your post I must assume that your term "atheist Satanists" refers to LaVey's church of Satan.

Allow me to answer some of your questions.

LaVey acknowledged and promoted a belief in the power of man in his own world. In addition he dissuades his readers from falling prey to the "empty promises" of religions like Christianity that claim to pay off after death for all the suffering endured in this life.

The Church of Satan believes in a higher power. That power is the self. Not the simple self of the ego, but the full self of the ego, id, reptilian brain, emotions, thoughts, dreams, goals, will, etc. They believe that the World is truth and devotion to the present existence rather than post-mortem salvation is the key to truth. Success in the world is success of the highest order. The rituals of the Satanic church are used to tap the more subtle and complex natures of the self, the power inherent to the mind but typically held back by the oppression of society's denial of the individual's power in favor of submission to the will of something stronger than yourself. It is the belief of the Church of Satan that to submit to a "higher power" than the self is to halt the growth of the self and to make yourself a slave to the will of others.

The tenets of the Church of Satan:

1) Satan represents indulgence, rather than abstinence!

In this statement, much is revealed. Experience is one of the best teachers, Satanism promotes learning through experience rather than doctrine. They also view self limitation such as abstinence as an aberration to the nature of humanity.

2) Satan represents vital existence, instead of spiritual pipe dreams!

Herein is laid forth the opposition to the "I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a cheeseburger today" mentality of most religions of a Judeo-Christian nature. The rewards of Satanism are in this life, not the next (which may not even exist)

3) Satan represents undefiled wisdom, instead of hypocritical self-deceit!

Translation: seek the truth out, once you find truth, embrace it. Do not allow yourself to become a slave to misguided convictions and hypocrisies. Question all things, including yourself.

4) Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it, instead of love wasted on ingrates!

Love those who deserve your love...discard those who would use and abuse your compassion for their own ends. Love is too precious to waste on those who would use it against you to do harm.

5) Satan represents vengeance, instead of turning the other cheek!

Eye for an Eye, tooth for a tooth. Do unto others as their actions have earned. We all make choices in life, if they are not prepared for the consequences of their actions, they should not initiate them. Punishment will not come from on high, pursue justice for thyself and those whom you love. Turning the other cheek invites more pain and suffering upon yourself and yoru loved ones.

6) Satan represents responsibility to the responsible, instead of concern for psychic vampires!

Take care of and respect those who take care of and respect others, take responsibility for your actions and treat fairly those who also take responsibility for their actions. Psychic vampires in this statement are defined as people who consistently do not take responsibility for the problems they create for themselves and others, and who don't respect the efforts put in by others to try to correct problems on their behalf. Such people drain your energy and resources which are better spent on those who will appreciate and learn from the mistakes, not continue to draw you into a downward spiral of energy expense that will wear you into the ground.

7) Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his "divine spiritual and intellectual development" has become the most vicious animal of all!

This one pretty much speaks for itself. The human species is the only animal who's hubris initiates wars, destroys it's own ecosystem, or thinks of itself as the pinnacle of existence. As a species, we are in truth one of the most savage animals on the planet.

8) Satan represents all of the so called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification!

This one ties back to #1 above, and is a statement about disowning the paralyzing guilt imposed by the Church over committing supposed "sins" which are in fact natural parts of existence. This does not mean they advocate breaking laws that coincide with supposed "sins"...they instead it is asserted that supposed sins are in place to soil the purity of experience and wisdom with guilt.

9) Satan is the best friend the church has ever had, as he has kept it in business all these years!

The Church's power is built on an adversarial position to the bogeyman figure of the "Devil" and the fear invoked by the existence of such a figure as they have painted it. The impoverished masses seek the church's protection from the bogeyman which is no more than a fictitional personification of all the problems in the world...all of which are caused by legitimate cause and effect rather than some supernatural being who is just trying to ruin humanity. By believing in such things as a force outside yourself, you remove your own power to confront and correct it, and are forced to turn to another force outside yourself as the answer...namely the Church.


I hope this helps you understand a little bit. This is all coming from my time as a practicioner of LaVey's Satanism. I am no longer a Satanist, but there is inherent truths in much of what the belief is based on still, however, there is a lot of misdirection there as well.

That was excellent Chaos.

Nox

The response by "ChaosWyrm" is most thought provoking. I appreciate the effort that you put into this! Thanks!

Chaos; you stated that you left this Church. Why? What was misleading that encouraged you to look elsewhere? I am just trying to understand.

Probably because its homosexual in nature.

You're just pissed, because the C of S, is a crass and cheezy version of something that resembles your beliefs.

What made you think I was pissed?

Its just sad how a church exists on the backs of angry kids with shitty parents who wear black and try and hide their face.

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Originally posted by Spirit of '22:
What made you think I was pissed?

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Not so much pissed as displeased: with the sight of some of your cherished beliefs; superimposed on charachters wearing costumes of; red robes and horns... a banner flashes in the corner of the screen, "Buy A T-Shirt!!"

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Its just sad how a church exists on the backs of angry kids with shitty parents who wear black and try and hide their face.

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heh, reminds me of the recording industry.

The C of S exemplifies the consummate atheist in your mind.

[As DI to recruit:]

"I don't see no horns on you boy, so you must be 'homosexual'"

...or is it that you're saying commercialism; is feminine in nature?

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Originally posted by Spirit of '22:
[BIts just sad how a church exists on the backs of angry kids with shitty parents who wear black and try and hide their face.[/B]

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First of all:
The Church of Satan will not accept anyone under the age of 18, nor do they promote exposing children under 18 to any theological dogma until they are of an age to fully understand and make an educated decision on what THEY want to beleive. They believe in letting children grow through experience, not dogmatic chains of oppression by any esoteric "god".

Your stereotype of the Church of Satan's membership is uninformed and likely you are confused by the difference between someone accepted by the Church of Satan and someone who merely claims they are a satanist.

Your place in the church is determined by your success in the world. The high priests are the most wealthy and influential people in thier areas who are members, and on up. There are ritual priests who learn the rites to conduct at the request of the high priests who don't have time to learn the "rituals". You think you know, but your words prove you don't.

Come back when you can add something useful to the conversation, please.

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Originally posted by Onefinefeller:
The response by "ChaosWyrm" is most thought provoking. I appreciate the effort that you put into this! Thanks!

Chaos; you stated that you left this Church. Why? What was misleading that encouraged you to look elsewhere? I am just trying to understand.

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My path diverged from theirs when I discovered that there were realms of truth that the Church of Satan as a whole was not examining...though I credit the beliefs I adapted under my time as a Satanist to being open minded and discerning enough to recognize a greater truth when it smacked me between the eyes....

I left the Church of Satan on good terms. I bear them no animosity, and I'd think they bear me none either. I will always take with me the lessons I learned as a Satanist, but they are tempered with purity of wisdom that allowed me to see the dogmatic side and subtle social dynamics inherent to following another man's path as your own...the differences are ever so subtle, but the are a world of difference.

Chaos... I have family in the CoS; Order of Nine Angles. I have learned as much as I can go on the web it seems. If you have a truth that can enlighten me; then please tell me.

I have actually read (all) of Crowley's writings and most of LaVey's stuff too. I have studied the Tarot and the Qaballa intensely. I have read with great interest, the available writings of the Temple of Set and the Draconian Church. I have researched and practiced eastern mysticism. I have even studied and updated all the grimores that are available. The knowledge I have has deepened my understanding of the world. My next project is to understand the 48 Enochian keys by John Dee.

So as you hopefully can see... I am interested in your quest. If you have grown out of the CoS, then may I ask, what truth have you discovered? Feel free to e-mail me privately if you would like. Thanks for your patience and willingness to be of assistance to me.

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Originally posted by Onefinefeller:
So as you hopefully can see... I am interested in your quest. If you have grown out of the CoS, then may I ask, what truth have you discovered? Feel free to e-mail me privately if you would like. Thanks for your patience and willingness to be of assistance to me.

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Let's just say that I got to know myself so well that I met "god" in an allegorical sense. I ripped down the barrier between identity and godhood for long enough to glimpse truths language can hardly convey...but in so doing, I grasped how insignificant our physical existence really is. I'm not talking about meeting any traditional "god"...I'm talking about a split moment in time when "I" ceased to exist and instead was all and nothing...infinity in a point...

From that moment on, I have been many things at many times...shifting perceptions and perspectives...

Why?
The experience left me with a hightened sense of what it is that we are...and amplified in me the traits that are most prevalent in that "godhood" state...

What are those traits?...Words have too many limitations to describe it, but it might help one understand the traits if they were to meditate on the concept of fractals...

My apologies in advance for the extreme vagueness and apparent elusiveness of this post. I realize I sort of rambled.

Chaos, there was once a teacher from ages ago who wrote a text written around 950 B.C.E. It goes like this:

"Meaningless, meaningless! Utterly meaningless; everything is meaningless.

What does a man gain from all his labor at which he toils under the hot sun? Generations come and generations go, but the earth remains forever."

He goes on and states; "I denied myself nothing my eyes desired, I refused my heart no pleasure. I took delight in all my work, and this was the reward for all my labor. Yet when I surveyed all that my hands had done and what I toiled to achieve, everything was meaningless, a chasing after the wind, nothing gained under the sun. A wise man, like the fool will not be long remembered; in the days to come, both will be forgotten."

I have pondered these words often. We are all just a vapor in the wind; and then we are gone. If I am understanding you right... do you agree? And if so, how do you answer such a dilemma? I have thought about this. And I found one for my walk in this world. Tell me; can you relate? Is this what you are trying to express?

to respond to another aspect to the opening post i am a novice tarot reader. i have several decks, many of which incorporate Xtinanity into the readings sometimes by accident.

using the tarot i do not call upon any outside influences, no god or satan or spirits enter my mind, for it is just that, my mind.

and my mind is what i deal with when reading the cards, for the most part the interpritation are designed to make you feel better about yourself, they are portrayed advice given through pictures and words, and more often than not actually make you think about what is going on in your life through the ideals of 'ask and ye shall recieve.'

its really no different than reading a self-help book or deciding that random passages in teh bible bring out certain truths, mainly because they do. everything is true, if you are lying, then it is true that you are lying, if you are decieving then it is true that you are decieving. you can get anything out of anything, and therefore if you decide to get historical, spiritual, and useful information out of physical objects such as cards or books or bibles, then so be it.

The only spirits I call forth are those of Life,Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happinness being delivered equally and thourghly to all.

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Originally posted by Onefinefeller:
I have pondered these words often. We are all just a vapor in the wind; and then we are gone. If I am understanding you right... do you agree? And if so, how do you answer such a dilemma? I have thought about this. And I found one for my walk in this world. Tell me; can you relate? Is this what you are trying to express?

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Yes, I agree...or as it was stated by the old man of the mountain "Nothing is true and everything is permissible"...In essence, meaning is illusion as much as existence.

How do I answer the dilemma?
Thus far it is sufficient answer to say:
Existence is a shared dream among the myriad fragmented "personalities" of a fragmented "god" that is omnipresent in a reality that doesn't exist. We are figments of it's imagination and our own.

The purpose? To experience itself subjectively and objectively from all perspectives. All that we know is both experiment and practical joke. When all else fails, just laugh...it will keep you sane.

Then what is reality? What does keep you sane?

Everything is reality, it differs on levels, but everything is meaningless because of it's unreality, being of differing levels to the "ultimate" reality which is all levels, one and none, when you see that all you toil was for nothing, for nothing you gained, and nothing you lost, you indeed don't exist, laughter is all that's left, you could cry if you want, because it makes no difference, it's the biggest practical joke that every existed, seeing this is bliss indefinable, and we go round and do it all over again

but hell the only thing I know is that I know nothing and that's the truth, I keep on going as if it does matter because it does, or doesn't it - I'm confused

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Originally posted by CuriousMonky:
Umm...Reiki isn't really "New Age". It's laying on of hands, been around for thousands of years. It's just another adaptation using some symbols, but it does work. I am recieved Usui Reiki I and II and have been practicing it for about 3 years.

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Care to expand CuriousMonky, is this a means of harnessing and using Chi. I've been wondering about this since checking out another topic that explained how to feel your own chi between the palms of your hands. That was a major revelation and has led to wondering if the 'christian' practice of laying on of hands harnesses this power, and; whether the tv evangelists who 'zap' people by laying on of hands are using chi to do it.

Sure. Yes it is a way of working with Chi. That post you are refering to about the palm exercise was mine. Yes also, the 'christian' laying on of hands is (basically) the same thing. The t.v. evangelist thing, ughh... I've only met one t.v. evagelist and he didn't do that kind of stuff also, I don't really care to voice my opinion about that.

I'll try to break it down a bit. From what I understand, the 'christian' L.O.H. works from the BELIEF that one can heal others in the name of god through Christ and in Love.

Reiki does the same thing, it works from the BELIEF that one can heal others using Chi, which Reiki practitioners call Reiki. The reason you will come across more people healing using Reiki and not the 'christian' l.o.h. is because the C.L.O.H. works purely on faith with nothing to back it up except for the healings one has already participated in. While Reiki on the other hand...Ok, let's put it like this. Reiki practitioners tend to believe that you can't practice Reiki unless you have been 'attuned'. When one 'learns' Reiki it is 'given' to someone from a "Reiki Master". The "Reiki Master" attunes this person to the Reiki energy.

It happens something like this, the person being attuned sits in a chair... God, this could get extremely long so let's just get to the point. Reiki works because the person using it believes it will and does. The attunements are given in a ceremonial ritual, this tends to make people believe that it is and will work, MORE. Simply because it's a ceremony. On top of this, JUST LIKE WORKING WITH MAGICK, symbols, signs, sigils, whatever you want to call them, are used to focus specific intentions.
For example, the symbol of Cho-ku-rei, is used to sub-consciously enhance the power of reiki and also to enhance physical healing by relating those two things to this symbol and consciously focusing on the symbol. Literally, carving it out in one's mind, so that all of their attention is focused on and in this symbol. Some people when practicing reiki also draw symbols out into the air or over specific body parts for the same purpose.

It basically boils down to this, however much you believe you can help, you can. Also, the more one works on ones' self, healing them selves and clearing out blockages in the energy channels the more energy one will be able to carry, and at higher vibrations.(more pure)

So, I hope that helps. If any questions come to mind don't hesitate to ask.

P.S. The reiki attunments help to open specific chakras and to familiarize one with what Reiki feels like so that it is easier to re-create.

[This message has been edited by CuriousMonky (edited 09-19-2002).]

Also it should be noted that one doesn't per say, 'harness' this chi. One works WITH it or allows it to works THROUGH you. It is a living thing.

[This message has been edited by CuriousMonky (edited 09-19-2002).]