The following is off ecclesia gnostica website:
"ON JUNE 10, 1991, A COVER STORY APPEARED in Time magazine on the topic of evil. The author, Lance Morrow, did not argue for a particular thesis and did not reach any conclusions. What he did, however, was in a sense more important. He began by stating three propositions:

§ God is all-powerful.
§ God is all-good.
§ Terrible things happen.

Citing several sources, Morrow said that you can match any two of these propositions, but not all three. You can declare that there is an all-powerful God who allows terrible things to happen, but this God could not be all-good. On the other hand, there might be an all-good God who lets terrible things happen because he does not have the power to stop them; thus he is not all-powerful.

The supreme medieval luminary of Catholic theology, St. Thomas Aquinas, admitted in his Summa Theologiae that the existence of evil is the best argument against the existence of God. If the concept of the monotheistic God is to be accepted, then the issue of evil has no viable explanation. Conversely, if evil exists, then the monotheistic God as presented by the mainstream religious traditions cannot exist".

What are your thoughts? Whence cometh evil?

Why do you assume an all-good, all-powerful god wouldnt allow evil? Im going to be all powerful and all good to my son, but Im still going to sit back and watch if a neighborhood kid picks on him. He has to learn to stand up for himself. Maybe God's understanding of evil isnt the same as yours. (Hard to believe I know, that the Creator of all things might not be in line with you)

PS- Im not a monotheist even, but youve presented a pretty shitty argument. That guy must have too.

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Originally posted by Spirit of '22:
PS- Im not a monotheist even, but youve presented a pretty shitty argument. That guy must have too.

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Spirit the only part of the post that was mine is the questions, i have not presented any argument, now perhaps this is all clear to you, but your example just does not wash for me.

If the neighborhood bully outweighs my kid two to one i'm not going to let him experience the opportunity to teach my kid the facts of life. How would that be for an all-powerful all-good dad, just allow your kid to get beat up? How far are you willing to take your analogy? And, Spirit: why do i sense this antipathy?


My questions:

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What are your thoughts? Whence cometh evil?

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Your answer:

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Maybe God's understanding of evil isnt the same as yours. (Hard to believe I know, that the Creator of all things might not be in line with you)

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Indicates to me you maybe misunderstood? I have not expressed any of my understanding of evil!

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Originally posted by redzed:
Whence cometh evil?

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From the hearts and minds of men.

"the existence of evil is the best argument against the existence of God."

I disagree.

I don't think there is a such thing as evil. There are things that are bad for me, I could consider those evil, but it might turn into something good for someone else, so its not really evil.

What is evil? Seriously, what is evil?

"Demons to some, angels to others."

evil is simply a question of perspective, the question of weather people can even be evil arrises, as from a clinical point of vieu, a personthat is eveil is mentally dissabled, andin our society that makes them excusable. where it begins and where it ends is therfore irelevent. what is relevent is that we should strive to act in a responsible way and to atemp to eradicate it on a personal level.

Whoever says that needs to get out more.

1. God's thoughts will not match yours. (How can you question the creator of life?)

2. God gave us freedom.

3. There will come a time where he will judge all.

-=MaTrIXSpiirit=-

Or we will become perfect, kill god and take his power. As stupid as we all are, don't uderestimate the human race.

..no soul created by God can be inherently evil for God is love. evil is a distortion of reality caused by a lack of love, a lack of God.

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Originally posted by XeNobiTe:
Or we will become perfect, kill god and take his power. As stupid as we all are, don't uderestimate the human race.

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Take your point on not underestimating humans, however how or why would a perfect being want to kill god?

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Originally posted by redzed:
Take your point on not underestimating humans, however how or why would a perfect being want to kill god?

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Why wouldn't we want to kill god? God is perfect and he kills. (I don't belive in god tho. This is just crap I'm makin up)

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Originally posted by insomniazz:
evil is a distortion of reality...

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lol, that's right, just keep your eyes shut, and it won't bother you.

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Originally posted by user X:
lol, that's right, just keep your eyes shut, and it won't bother you.

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Yeah, seems horribly real when the pain is throbbing or the blood is pissing out all over the place!

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Yeah, seems horribly real when the pain is throbbing or the blood is pissing out all over the place!

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I have seen more supposed "good" having that as a result rather than supposed "evil".

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Originally posted by Dark_Magneto:
I have seen more supposed "good" having that as a result rather than supposed "evil".

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Know what you mean, think it was buddha who said one should aim for the middle path, try not to be too good or too bad. Thing is Paul the apostle spoke of the perversity of human nature, "the good things i would do i do not, rather the bad things i did not intend happened". Or words to that effect,and if seen as a statement of the human condition rather than a religious doctrine, his statement is so true to life.

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Originally posted by MaTrIXSpiirit:
3. There will come a time where he will judge all.-=MaTrIXSpiirit=-

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But judge us against what standard?

This question differentiates the world's religions. Case in point...the woman under sentence of death (stoning) in Nigeria. All of us know that in a different place (in the world) that her "crime" would hardly be noticable. Now how would the creator handle this situation? What standard does the creator use? How are we to know just exactly which standards are from the creator and which standards are the invention of man claiming to speak on behalf of the creator?

Nox

The idea of a universal judgement is unique to a handful of religions. That means nothing about the nature of god. It is ignorant to let any one religion be a spokesman for God. It is equally ignorant to use one ridiculous religion to discredit more legitimate ones.

>>>>Take your point on not underestimating humans, however how or why would a perfect being want to kill god?<<<<

Who said perfect? Powerful would be the word to describe a thing that could 'Kill' a god.

Id kill a lot of Gods if I had the power.

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Originally posted by Nox:
This question differentiates the world's religions. Case in point...the woman under sentence of death (stoning) in Nigeria.

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This isn't religion. Nigeria just likes it's justice to be tribal in nature. You didn't mention the offence, but I would say that she was lucky to have a trial. Most crimes there are settled on the spot.

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How are we to know just exactly which standards are from the creator and which standards are the invention of man claiming to speak on behalf of the creator?

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We can't know. Unknowable gods are unimportant.
___

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Spirit:
Id kill a lot of Gods if I had the power.

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lol, whip out your list.

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Originally posted by Nox:
But judge us against what standard?

This question differentiates the world's religions. Case in point...the woman under sentence of death (stoning) in Nigeria. All of us know that in a different place (in the world) that her "crime" would hardly be noticable. Now how would the creator handle this situation? What standard does the creator use? How are we to know just exactly which standards are from the creator and which standards are the invention of man claiming to speak on behalf of the creator?

Nox

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I've posted it before, but at risk of being boringly repetitive the good news of John starts with "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God". Now theologians have twisted the original meaning to suit their world view, or lust for power, brainwashing, whatever, but the original Greek, translated via Latin, into english was Logos. A greek concept that saw Reason as the first principle of the universe.

Using our Reason we can test all laws and standards to make a judgement on the logic of whatever course of action is to be pursued. "In the beginning was Reason, and Reason was with God and Reason was God"! That to me, is good news, cause it empowers us, it gives us licence to believe that we can nut it out, we don't need to rely on supernatural powers, or popes, or kings, each individual can use their own powers of Reason to sort out the truth from error.

Interesting that you should use the example of stoning, cause a similar story exists about Jesus being confronted by the religious leaders in an attempt at entrapment. He devastated their theology and tradition with the simplest of logic, "let he who is without sin cast the first stone".

John goes on to say all things were made by LOGOS/REASON and without Reason was not anything made. Seems this strips away lots of the superstition and theological tradition and presents a different concept, that of a God of Reason.

In response then to your questions as to what standards the creator would have used, perhaps John would answer: Logic-Reason, all things would be judged logically and reasonably.

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Originally posted by user X:
This isn't religion. Nigeria just likes it's justice to be tribal in nature. You didn't mention the offence, but I would say that she was lucky to have a trial. Most crimes there are settled on the spot.

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Sorry about that, it's been in the news I thought it was common knowledge.

A Nigerian woman gave birth greater than 9 months after her divorce prompting her prosecution and conviction on the charge of having sex outside marriage. Sharia (I think that's the correct spelling) is the Islamic law which was recently (within the last year) instituted throughout Nigeria. She was sentenced to be stoned to death (which means being buried up to your neck and then being stoned) and the execution of the sentence is to be delayed until she finishes breast feeding the newborn infant.

Recently (because of the world wide attention given the case) a Nigerian governmental official has stated that another, higher Islamic court will review the sentence.

Nox

Will you shut up about reason please? Without spirit, reason is worthless. There's no REASON to do anything, accomplish anything, become anything, and not be a slave without spirit.

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Originally posted by Spirit of '22:
Will you shut up about reason please? Without spirit, reason is worthless. There's no REASON to do anything, accomplish anything, become anything, and not be a slave without spirit.

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So true! Reason is only a partial description of Logos. (as another post--thanks for that!)
Logos: 1. Philosophy; reason, regarded as the controlling principle of the universe. 2. THE DIVINE WORD; the second person of the Trinity.(Cocise Collins Dictionary p.873)

Reason 1. the faculty of rational argument, deduction, judgement etc. 5. Philosophy the intellect, regarded as a source of knowledge, as contrasted with experience.


spirit: 1. the force or principle of life that animates the body of living things, 2. temperament or disposition, 4. the fundamental, emotional, and activating principle of a person; will, 11. a persons intangible being as contrasted with his/her physical presence. 12a. an incorporeal being. From the Latin 'spiritus' - breath, spirit.

Spirit another name for the Holy Ghost, the third person of the Trinity.

"Then God said let Us make man in Our 'image' according to Our 'likeness'."

Lets see, a God that has three major personality descriptions, two of which are Reason and Spirit. This 'God' of 'Reason' and 'Spirit', is said to have created man in his own image, man who also has reason and spirit.

Who/What is the first person of the Trinity?

Spirit et al, before you start screaming deist at me think about it. We are three: body-soul-spirit -- flesh-reason-emotion -- being-mind-personality?

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Originally posted by Nox:
it's been in the news I thought it was common knowledge.

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lol, no it's worse than that, I didn't even know about the Islamic thing. It could help them with their civilization building skills.

As far as your comments about judgement day, What's the point? The different standards are as attached to religious tradition - as is the concept of judgement day itself.

Those religions that don't recognize the judgement day concept, would obviously have a different set of rules.

Edit: Anybody here an Oysterhead fan?

[This message has been edited by user X (edited 08-30-2002).]