Yea, i uset to be a athiest, but i realized that, according to the most basicest rules of logic, god HAS to exist. i mean, cum on. How much more close to logic can you get??? it go somthing like this:

-everything had a cause
-the universe had a cause
-theirfore, god caused the universe.

Its the only logical senereo. So, since God is the case, is it logical now to chose a a religion? No. Does God suddenly meen thar there's a afterlife? No.

That in fact is my question. How do other theists (that think differintly then myself) conclude that their is a afterlife? How does god = afterlife??

Oh, and how does God = evolution is untrue?

And how does god = "soul", "spirit", etc.?

I believe in God. But i aint believe in things that are even more absurder, like "soul".

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-everything had a cause

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If everything has to have a cause, then nothing can ever be made, because the first cause has to have a cause and so on and so forth. So ultimately, something has to have always existed (violates the "everything has a cause" rule) or had to create itself.

Keep in mind, that's as far aws we know. Their are scientific processes and such that we don't even know exist yet. For all we know, things may be able to spontaneously generate.

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-the universe had a cause

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As far as we know, yeah.

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-theirfore, god caused the universe.

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You violated one of your own statements. You state everything has a cause, but then you give no cause for God, which created the universe.

Just because we don't know what caused the universe doesn't automatically make it a God. More than likely, noone even remotely has an idea or concept of what actually happened to create everything.

The chance of any 1 theory on how everything came to be being bang on target is nil. It's just something we're never going to figure it out, I resolved myself to that.

It used to bother me alot that noone knows what really happened, but I got over it and just came to accept that we as limited beings can't comprehend the vast awesomeness that is science. We haven't even reached the tip of the iceberg in science yet.

If everything has a cause, then what caused god?

I think your write. I should stick with athiesm, no matter how anylitic and cold it is

[This message has been edited by Freeman Hercule (edited 08-17-2002).]

I'm more of an agnostic type myself. I accept the possibility of their being some sort of creation force, probably nothing as we picture it as today (God), but some type, that created the universe.

It's a possibility, and a slim one to boot. I can't rule it out entirely, but there is really no evidence suggesting that it's what happened either, so I'm just undecided.

I don't say that any 1 theory is not possible at all, and I don't say that it's what happened either. I just say, I don't know, because we can't know, and noone else knows either. They may think that they know, but they don't. The only way you can know how it happened is with hard proof, which there is none, so I wouldn't worry too much about it.

[This message has been edited by Dark_Magneto (edited 08-17-2002).]

Freeman, you're pretty flimsy, aren't you?

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Originally posted by Freeman Hercule:
Uh............ may be he said that becuase, i don't no, MAY BE BECUASE GOD IS REEL. LOL.

Damn athiests

(ps, I use to be a athiest, but now i am converted to thiesm and understood that faith do in fact involve logic, mor logic (evidentilly) then atheism, in fact.)

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Honest question, how old are you?

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Originally posted by Freeman Hercule:
Yea, i uset to be a athiest, but i realized that, according to the most basicest rules of logic, god HAS to exist. i mean, cum on. How much more close to logic can you get??? it go somthing like this:

-everything had a cause
-the universe had a cause
-theirfore, god caused the universe.

Its the only logical senereo. So, since God is the case, is it logical now to chose a a religion? No. Does God suddenly meen thar there's a afterlife? No.

That in fact is my question. How do other theists (that think differintly then myself) conclude that their is a afterlife? How does god = afterlife??

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Mate atheism has to be the most irrational, illogical term ever devised, every atheist believes in something they are either in denial, or struggling with the absurdity of religion.

The theist will always struggle to explain the existence of evil in a universe supposedly created by an all good, all powerful, all seeing God.

Agnosticism is an intelligent position for one who has no truck with the peddlars of hell and damnation, but recognises that there is much we do not know.

The answers are out there, all it takes is an open mind and a willingness to test all one's theories to breaking point before accepting their validity.

I've been all of the above, I ended up with the one that suited my principles.
I'm not very diplomatic, so being agnostic didn't work.
Theism didn't work because, once again, it didnt suit my principles.

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Originally posted by redzed:

The answers are out there, all it takes is an open mind and a willingness to test all one's theories to breaking point before accepting their validity.

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the answers do exist, it's just a matter of finding them. Something that has eluded mankind thus far, and will probably continue to elude us for as long as oour kind exists. We might find the answers, but so far based on lack of sufficient traceable evidence, we probably won;t figure it out.

if the big bang is true, then what caused it? Whatever caused it is long gone, so good luck trying to figure out what it was.

good points magneto.

i'm wondering though how you can accept anything, it seems to me you're driven more by belief, than those who have belief.

if you still question the big bang and ALL of the evidence that supports it, like the expanding universe, general relativity, hawkings research on black holes applied to the beginning of the universe, the microwave radiation picked up by television stations and am radio as static interference, pretty much every observational and experimental evidence we have supports the big bang...

what evidence will it take to actually convince you of the existance of god, if there is one.

i've said it so many times that even if god came up to some people they'd ask for his id, and then question the omnipotence and omniscience of god if an even higher authority grants him the title.

superstring theory provides the cause for the big bang.

the 10 dimensional universe is extremely unstable due to it's own symetry, in which the dimensions are not perpindicular to each other, but parallel, so to speak.

the best example is to take a twin size bed sheet, which is cubic in form; and put it on a queen size bed which will flatten it and from the side look one-dimensional.

the tension in the bedsheet, it's "desire" so to speak to be cubic, will "snap" the bedsheet from the mattress, and you've just created a miniature big bang.

Here's a few ideas. Im sure none of you will agree but it doesn't matter.

God is the one consciosness that exists everywhere and creates himself constantly in a form he can view ie: the universe (like an expression).

We also have a consciousness, which is part of the one whole consciousness, but is made seperate so that our part of that consciousness can experience human life (this is where free will exists, but 'free will' goes much deeper than that). And when we die, our consciousness dissolves back into the complete consciousness (god).
This would be what is known as heaven.

In answer to the 'where did god come from' question.
It's a toughy, but i would say that it is impossible for God not to exist. It is impossible for anything to be 'before God', since god created 'time' and so 'before god' is not a concept. There is no such thing as 'before God, because time didn't exist then. God has existed the whole time that'time' has existed, since he created 'time'. And 'time' began the very moment that God 'thought', since he had the infinate mental power, which was able to think every possible thought all in one go. This included the idea of 'time' and the decision for 'time to begin.
Man i could make this much more understandable but i aint got the time to.

It is impossible for anything to exist without a complete bluprint of the whole of existence (stored within energy) and the mind that created the blueprint (god), god existed as a mind that already had the infinate amount of knowledge, wisdom, and ideas about everything that was to 'be'.

You cannot have 1 thing that evolves into another without data on how to evolve, so the universe began with gods mind (containing infinate knowledge) and then plain old simple energy, which was the purist form of life, yet it held information on how to change and evolve into everything that was going to exist.

There is only 2 possibilities on the subject.
1: The universe has gone on forever and will go on forever (ie there sin't a begining)
Or 2: God exists.
I have a suspicion that the first is also impossible without God, but i need to think about it.

There's more info that backs up everything i have said, but i cant write a book sized message.
Sorry for putting virtually every other word in apostophies, but i just gotta.

[This message has been edited by Beany (edited 08-18-2002).]

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Originally posted by IzzyReele:

i'm wondering though how you can accept anything, it seems to me you're driven more by belief, than those who have belief.

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Umm, no.

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if you still question the big bang and ALL of the evidence that supports it, like the expanding universe, general relativity, hawkings research on black holes applied to the beginning of the universe, the microwave radiation picked up by television stations and am radio as static interference, pretty much every observational and experimental evidence we have supports the big bang...

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Here's a question. If the big bang is such a sure thing, why is it still a theory? I mean, it's the most rational theory thus far, but it still can't be proven. The gun isn't smoking, but it sure is getting hot.

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what evidence will it take to actually convince you of the existance of god, if there is one.

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God revealing himself, divine intervention, something along those lines. Something that can be attributed only to God and leaves nothing to chance. Not this bullshit people use to confirm their faith nowadays like water streaks on a building or a blueberry muffin vaguely resembling the general outline of the typical depiction of Mary.

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i've said it so many times that even if god came up to some people they'd ask for his id, and then question the omnipotence and omniscience of god if an even higher authority grants him the title.

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He would have a hell of alot of explaining to do, that's for sure.

<<God revealing himself>>>
If god is everything that exists, why would he feel the need to prove himself to himself

<<divine intervention>>
Is only neccassary if God was 'against' something, but since everything that exists is God, there is nothing that he disagrees with.

The weird thing is, the most plausible explanation for God, is an explanation that cannot be proven or disproven because of its nature, but if you could only understand that this explanation is the only thing that could be. It is the only possible explanation for 'existence'.
Aaaargh, i have all the answers, if only you would all listen and understand.
See my desperation.

[This message has been edited by Beany (edited 08-18-2002).]

Believing in something so vague because of the fact that it is vague doesn't justify anything.

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Originally posted by IzzyReele:
good points magneto.

i'm wondering though how you can accept anything, it seems to me you're driven more by belief, than those who have belief.

if you still question the big bang and ALL of the evidence that supports it, like the expanding universe, general relativity, hawkings research on black holes applied to the beginning of the universe, the microwave radiation picked up by television stations and am radio as static interference, pretty much every observational and experimental evidence we have supports the big bang...

what evidence will it take to actually convince you of the existance of god, if there is one.

i've said it so many times that even if god came up to some people they'd ask for his id, and then question the omnipotence and omniscience of god if an even higher authority grants him the title.

superstring theory provides the cause for the big bang.

the 10 dimensional universe is extremely unstable due to it's own symetry, in which the dimensions are not perpindicular to each other, but parallel, so to speak.

the best example is to take a twin size bed sheet, which is cubic in form; and put it on a queen size bed which will flatten it and from the side look one-dimensional.

the tension in the bedsheet, it's "desire" so to speak to be cubic, will "snap" the bedsheet from the mattress, and you've just created a miniature big bang.

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And how does the Big Bang Theory suddenly infer an intelligent designer?

Read this: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theodore_schick/bigbang.html

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Originally posted by Beany:
<<God revealing himself>>>
If god is everything that exists, why would he feel the need to prove himself to himself

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That's if God is everything that exists. You state a condition that is not neccessarily true. Until it can be determined that God is everything that exists, I won't entertain the thought of it being so.

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<<divine intervention>>
Is only neccassary if God was 'against' something, but since everything that exists is God, there is nothing that he disagrees with.

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You state that everything that exists is God, which begs the question.

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The weird thing is, the most plausible explanation for God, is an explanation that cannot be proven or disproven because of its nature,

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Hardcore flat-earthism cannot be proven or disproven because of it's nature. It provides alternate explanations for everything that you could use to constitute a round earth.

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but if you could only understand that this explanation is the only thing that could be. It is the only possible explanation for 'existence'.

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No it isn't. It's the only explanation that you consider possible.

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Aaaargh, i have all the answers, if only you would all listen and understand.
See my desperation.

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I gave up on the Christian God because I had too many questions he couldn't answer. Either he couldn't answer them or he didn't care enough to provide the answers, so either way he is non-existent or doesn't care enough to give an answer.