I probably shouldn't have bothered, but I wanted to see you replies, I'm not going to re-read what I wrote it'd be embarasing, and I can't be bothered

Where is God in us, you, the ego seems a fully selfsuficiant unit, needing no input from God in order to function, it's a complex unit of conditioned behaviour patterns, specific modes of thought, and a billion other things that have developed from the moment of your conception, all intertwined to create you, all of these things operate due to set laws, as behavuorists will tell you, similar to the ones we see in nature, because we are part of nature, which is obvious
But the end product of these laws with in us is to keep us moving, changing, increasing our experience, knowledge, our ability to survive in and adapt to new surroundings, for example bordom, we get bored when our minds keep doing the same things over and over agian, habitual thought patterns get carved into much used brain pathways, an experience which makes us restless, and desire for new experiences, when we obtain this new experience we make new paths ways in our brain, unused neurons start to function, crating new asscocitaions, gaining more knowledge, and utilising more of our brains, for the previously mentioned purpose(s) this has the built in feature of making us happy, so it is continued agian and we keep advancing, the main reason Neandthals didn't last
All this is designed by nature, for the benifit of nature, we developed frontal lobes to help us in that task, the seat of esthetic happiness, creativity, logic, desire for mutual advancment, rather than selfish advancment, and other things that seperate us from apes, in who the frontal lobes aren't as developed, they funtcion more on the "back brain" (theres got to be a scientific name I however can't remember,) which corresponeds with kill or be killed, animal type instincts, which we (supposedly) use less and less as we evolve

not a hint of God anywhere,

The same thing applies to the rest of the universe, everything opperates due to set laws, I think it was Hawking that said "I'm certain that if God did exist he or she put in place set laws to enshure that no intervention would ever be neccesary" I made a mess of that but the basic princple is there,

This has been noted by the East which discribes these things as Samsara and The Dance of Shiva, sperate but similar terms, both in the mind and in nature, they also say that it is possible to go beyond these things and to percive that which lies benith, and devised methods for doing this which particualy focus on creation more advanced frontal lobe funtions, untill you are in a possition to go beyond mind, which will sound stupid to somebody who doesn't believe in spirit, and percieve that which is beyond the grasp of the average mind, since these practice inhanse the centres of logic there is no reason to sujest that they're being illogical or irrational (missperecving) the higher levels of reality, the very brain fuctions that etheists find themselves so proud of, if anything there judment would be more accurate,

I've lost myself but my point is that once agian, the microcosim agian seems to equate with the macrocosim,
Neither show the presence of God, and seem to opperate without any sort of interevntion,
but we can get to God by finding the true nature of our own minds, and is similary the fundemental nature of the universe

"Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:21 (KJV)

Ok so despite your bad spelling I managed to make my way through that message.
I was a bit confused as to what you were getting at.
Are you saying that God doesn't intervene at all with the construct of our minds, but he can be reached after stripping our minds of all ides about life? (Samsara).



[This message has been edited by Beany (edited 08-15-2002).]

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Originally posted by Beany:

Are you saying that God doesn't intervene at all with the construct of our minds, but he can be reached after stripping our minds of all ides about life? (Samsara).

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Logic is all we have to accurately interpret and rationalize with. That sounds suspiciously like casting aside that logic with reckless abandon.

I as a human can't exceed logic or cast aside my only process of interpretation. Some may feel fine with tossing rationale out the window, but it's something I can't live with.

No just that God doen't appear to intervine in our minds, and as the personifiaction doesn't, our minds operate due to set laws, and who we are reflects this, but we can go underneath this, to a greater level of ourselves, this is the path to God, not outside of ourselves,

But exactly were did I say that you had to toss logic and reason out the window, these are the most nessecary tools for analysisng and deconstructing your mind, but not the only ones

In fact I noted that these aspects of our conciousness increase in realiability due to meditation practices, it's (exactly as the yogi's say) increasing the speed of evolution of your mind, and this is now backed up by neuroscience, we become faster and smarter, our brain start utilising all of it's potential, constantly, we even start to see ultra violet light, hear sounds that are out of the human frequency range,

I've gotta go to work, so I'll leave it there for now

What was geeting at is by doing percific meditation practices we can actualy speed up the evolution of your brain, these practices alow you to acess greater levels of creativity, logic, reasoning, happiness, selfless desires (for mutal anvancement of humanity as one), all those thing that we give credit to being civilised character traits, and owe their being to the frontal lobes, when we advance this centre in our brain, we give less creedence to the animalistic area's of the mind that are left over from our evolutionary past, and by the natural progression we see happening, this will eventualy be done away with anyway,

When we encourage more use of the frontal lobes, our brain funtion acctualy changes in it's method of thought, processing information, and comming to conclusions, and starts tp pic up on alot of things previously unknown to the senses, as in seeing ultraviolet light, hearing higher frequencies, so it would only be locial to expect that with the greater functioning of the brain, the induvidual would come apon greater knowledge of life, but this is only the tip of the ice berg, but is all that is recognised by mainstream science that I know

So what I'm getting at is that a lot of you seem to think that people who believe in God are stupider than your evolved selves, when acctualy the opposite is most likely true, and that they percieve in a manner that is more accrute than the rest of humanity, because they have found a way to speed up the evolution of brain function, the only way out of this is that this speeding up has caused malfunctions in the perceptual centres of the brain, but that also seems unlikely, as I said it would be more likely that there perceptions are correct, but are based on things that we can percieve, because of the way our brains presently function

[This message has been edited by evolove (edited 08-17-2002).]

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So what I'm getting at is that a lot of you seem to think that people who believe in God are stupider than your evolved selves, when acctualy the opposite is most likely true,

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I don't see many people that believe in God meditating. And who told you that it speeds up evolution of the brain? Where do you arrive at this conclusion from? That would have to be some amazingly damn fast evolution in order for your brain to evolve while your still alive. Usually it takes a couple million years to see any noticeable result.

If you meditate yourself, have you had an increase in mental performance? if meditation can actually do all of that, I'm suprised everyone isn't doing it. That would be cool to speed up all your mental performances.

[This message has been edited by Dark_Magneto (edited 08-17-2002).]

Not any physical changes, at least that I know of, but it changes the way your brain functions, which would have physical repocussions but nothing to drastic I would think, like exercising other muscles, increaseing frontal lobe capabilities, which is the way that our brain looks like evolving at this stage,

What do you mean that you don't see people who believe in God meditating, it's an extremily common practice through out the East, and even in the West, with the big three as some call them, To be honest I realy think that your trying to suck me into something here,

I can't say anything for mental preformance in myself, I'm one of those people that gets things that a lot of people miss, but miss things that a lot of people get, sometimes I think I grow smarter day by day, other times I feel I get stupider, especialy with these posts, but I have noticed increased preformence of my senses, but I won't mention them either, especialy until I get myself checked out, but I feel pretty confident at this stage that nothing out of the ordinary will be found, I think it's my mind that has changed, not the eyes, ears, whatever,

Why the hell isn't everyone meditating? thats exactly what I want to know, although I think that, (from your posts) you probably already do it with out knowing, but the real stuff comes with tantras and other higher spiritual practices, which can be counted as meditation, but are far more powerful,

It's probably best if you check it out for your self if your interested, you seem like an intelligent guy and I tend to get carried away with things, so if you see something thats not right here http://www.h2net.net/p/nslade/art/Brain/brainrev2.html
could you please let me know, (or anybody else for that matter) some of the stuff is realy out there and I can put a lot of faith in it myself, but other stuff seems realy good, so I'm still in the process of properly checking it out, this topic being one of the avenues,

Ok, I checked it out. It's mostly an advertisement for a concept, rather than a site that actually discusses higher brain function. The retreat, or whatever it is, sounds really cool though.

I followed some of the links, and found them to be a variety of less-informing drool. One link boasted of the goal of preventing war through analysis of the brain, while another explained how glorious it would be, to regain the accute sense of smell that our ancestors had; entirely missing the obvious connection between emotion and instinct.

Meditation can be a spritual refresher, it allows some time to focus thoughts, and dwell on the future, etc. It won't change your brain from a Trash 80 to a Cray, it just gives you self-confidence, which in turn allows you to achieve other things.

Dudes' bodies not rotting after they die, is useless, carnival-like bullshit.

You ask, "why more people don't meditate?"

The same reason more people don't run, even though they're useless lumps of fat - lack of self-discipline.

Meditation changing brain function was my main piont, I care little for the rest of the stuff, I have seen the results for my self, I'll get my eyes and ears checked out to see whats up with them, but I don't think they can check for states of conciousness as such, I feel like a different person daily, it's ver strange, my perception is constantly changing, state of mind, going outside normal, or any feelings that are familiar, and have been for ages, I realy am not me anymore, I have no me
But you can change your own brain function now if you wish, simply by controling your thoughts, this is brain yoga, sort of, you start to streach the parts of your brain that you don't use so much, and some area's that you never have, like advancing a microchip, making new conections, working faster, higher capabilities,
All this is done naturaly it's how we learn, and leads to evolution of the aspects we use or need most, like evolving the higher functions in the first place, but it speeds up this process, but I'm not going to claim on a brain matter level, just the way we use what we already have,

"Dudes' bodies not rotting after they die, is useless, carnival- like bullshit."

Is this in refrence to something on the site or something else, because it's not realy bullshit, well not in the sense that it's worthless to look at, if I told you that after I die my body will not rot in anyway, that I could control this after death, and I pulled it off, are you telling me that this would have no impact on you?
Sure on a one off occasion, you might say bullshit, but this aswell has been reported though out history, from what I know it only happens to Saints, but of any religions, I'm not trying to make a big thig about it, but it's worth having a look at,

But if it is acctual true, then preformer (in the carnavile) has to be still alive after s/he dies, to be able to control his body, not nessecary but is the most likely, if we are focusing on their own claims, if they are still alive and can leave their body at will, which they can also supposedly do, (Paramahansa said that he would die on a particualr occasion and let himself do so, conciously) then they could also jump back into it and reanimate it if there was no degeneration, so you see what I'm getting at here,

The preservation thing you speak of only has 1 instance that I know of. St. Bernadette in Lordes, France.

St. Bernadette used to help the ill when she was alive. She became sick herself and died in a rocking chair and they buried her. After they buried her, they exhumed her for some reason or another and they discovered that she had been impeccably preserved in unusual decay promoting conditions. They have her body on display, but it has been heavily cosmetically altered. They put a wax mask on her face and hands, and noone is able to touch her body, so it casts a reasonable doubt.

If you told me that you could stop your body from rotting after you died, and you were buried in conditions that were ripe for decay, then I would say your bullshitting me. If people could stop their bodies from decaying after death, everybody would be doing it by now.

[This message has been edited by Dark_Magneto (edited 08-19-2002).]

quote:

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Originally posted by evolove:
No just that God doen't appear to intervine in our minds, and as the personifiaction doesn't, our minds operate due to set laws, and who we are reflects this, but we can go underneath this, to a greater level of ourselves, this is the path to God, not outside of ourselves,

But exactly were did I say that you had to toss logic and reason out the window, these are the most nessecary tools for analysisng and deconstructing your mind, but not the only ones

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Seems everybody has a mind picture of God as some farout dude sitting up in the heavens someplace, this may be true for the religious western cultures, but for many eastern people and those who feel free to think beyond the stereotypes God is not like that at all.

Many hypothesise that God is spirit, a spiritual entity that does not exist in our dimension. So as three dimensional creatures, direct intercourse with God is possible through learning to think and operate on a spiritual level.

There are lots of clues in the holy scriptures, and i'm talking about all the scriptures not just the 66 of the western bible.

But using the bible as an example, the good news of John states in the first chapter that:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with ELOHIYM, and the Word was EL.

2 The same was in the beginning with ELOHIYM.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
(Sacred name version KJV)

For those not brainwashed into believing that the religions have not distorted the meanings of scripture check out the different words used for God - ELOHIYM and EL. These different words have been translated as the same and yet a more literal meaning for ELOHIYM would be Almighty Creator and for EL - Almighty.

Similarly 'Word' is a translation of the greek Logos, which could more properly be understood as reason.

Concise Collins Dictionary: Logos 1. Philosophy. reason, regarded as the controlling principle of the universe. 2. the divine Word; the second person of the Trinity. [Originally from c16 Greek: word reason.

Perhaps a religion with a vested interest in keeping the people ignorant would translate a word so obviously meaning reason as word. Or perhaps their theological training so blinded them to the facts that they just missed the significance, whatever.

If one now reads John with the above meanings here is the result:
In the beginning was Reason, and Reason was with Almighty Creator, and Reason was Almighty.

2 The same was in the beginning with Almighty Creator.

3 All things were made by Reason; and without Reason was not any thing made that was made.

4 In Reason was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.


Could paraphrase this last verse as: And Reason shines in the darkness of religion and the religious did not understand it.

So when you say God does not intervene in our minds ... well if one understands God as a spiritual force of Reason, then perhaps God is intervening in our minds, we are simply not comprehending because of the darkness.

You see if one does not 'comprehend', one cannot change the message. That message is exactly as you all say, the exercise of reason and logic. What is it that seperates man from beast? or civilised man from savage? Is it the power of reason, logic? Is it the state of advancement of that power of reason? When Jesus said "ye are Gods" was He alluding to this fact?

Is a person with reason and logic as their controlling principles in harmony with the dictionary definition of Logos the controlling principle of the universe?

quote:

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Logic is all we have to accurately interpret and rationalize with. That sounds suspiciously like casting aside that logic with reckless abandon.

I as a human can't exceed logic or cast aside my only process of interpretation. Some may feel fine with tossing rationale out the window, but it's something I can't live with.

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God may be, whatever we define God to be, our understanding is only a function of our limited knowledge. If one defines God as John did as Logos - Reason then it changes the picture.

If one recognises and practises Logos/Reason as the primary principle for living life, does that mean one has the 'Spirit' of God?



[This message has been edited by redzed (edited 08-19-2002).]

http://members.aol.com/ccmail/incorruptbodies.html

That's the Christian ones, but it's also a phenomenon that has happened to very religious people from all over the world, some poeple might have read about it in "The Tiebeten Book of Living and Dying" I think thats the right title, but I've also posted before about Parammahansa Yogananda, his body was in the California Mortuary for nearly a month, and the Director (Big Guy whatever be the name) testified that he could see no signs of any corruptibility what so ever, and thoughly went over all their mortuary annuals and found nothing that came close to this, usualy the body would start to rot within days, but it was like his body was in suspended animation, he actualy said that he would do this before hand, so maybe it could have been faked, but maybe not either, if you want the letter he wrote you might be able to search for it on here somewhere, that was in 1952 I think


[This message has been edited by evolove (edited 08-19-2002).]

quote:

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Originally posted by evolove:
...I feel like a different person daily, it's ver strange, my perception is constantly changing, state of mind, going outside normal, or any feelings that are familiar, and have been for ages, I realy am not me anymore, I have no me.

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This is just post-pubescent angst ...it'll pass.

quote:

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"Dudes' bodies not rotting after they die, is useless, carnival-like bullshit."

Is this in refrence to something on the site or something else, because it's not realy bullshit, well not in the sense that it's worthless to look at...

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Yes, the useless and worthless link that you offered up in another thread.

quote:

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...if I told you that after I die my body will not rot in anyway, that I could control this after death, and I pulled it off, are you telling me that this would have no impact on you?

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On the contrary, I'd be amazed; If you succeed, I'll volunteer to be the high fucking priest. Let us test your theory right away.

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But if it is acctual true, then preformer (in the carnavile) has to be still alive after s/he dies

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Oh, no, sorry, I didn't mean "carnival-like" to be taken ill-literally. It's more like incredulity, with cheeze.

Post pubesent angst?
I wouldn't assume to much if I were you,

I don't think that this stuff is faked, I think that the Bodies have been made up, as in make up, as in eyeliner and blush, but for them to be in any condition similar to what they are is quite amaizing, but I would probably be in the same boat as you anyway had I nont found that Paramahansa Yogananda did the same thing, and acctualy said that he would do it beforehand, AND was wittnessed by a very experienced person in this field, starting just hours after he died, (not enough time to have him stuffed) daily untill Yogananda was buired, he was completely amaized, and could find no explaination for it, not that there is definately not, I'm not saying that,

Exactly what are the limitations of man?
I can do things right now that you don't think are posssible

[This message has been edited by evolove (edited 08-20-2002).]