Ok, Churches are founded around the world. Why? Most are to give believers a sense of community and to show us that there are other believers out there. Ok, now why do we need that? Simply because it is NOT EASY BEING A CHRISTIAN. Especially in places like totse, where, if you're a Christian, you're automatically fed to the lions. Every post on here has had some argument over who's right, but no one budges either way, EVER. The Christians that ARE on here are constantly trying to prove their cases against dead ears. You atheists come in here simply for a good argument. Why else are you in here? Are you trying to recruit believers to "your side?" Trying to save us from some evil God who loves every one of us, including you? Why do you feel the need to prove believers wrong? Is it some kind of insecurity on your part? It is our job as Christians to try to show non-believers our God, one way or another. We are supposed to be examples of our God to everyone. It is up to YOU to believe. Some are better examples than others. That is why the "God bashers" in here have had arguments against all THEIR posts. I don't have all the answers to my faith and I don't pretend to. I DO see how believing in God has bettered my life and I don't see how that would HURT any of you. Yes, the idea is hard to grasp of a higher being that had no beginning and will have no end; that created us all from scratch and watches us right now, but how would it harm you to believe it? Christianity is not some kind of disease. You don't even really have to belong to a church, since some of them do not follow the ways of Christ anyway, but seriously, how would it hurt you to believe? I live my life as if there is a God and if there isn't, what do I have to fear? But if you live your life like there ISN'T a God, you'd better be right. That is not a threat, but everyone here knows the Christian beliefs in the consequences for not believing in God, whether you DO believe, or you don't. Another thing is that it is so easy not to believe! There are so many things in this world, yourselves included, that try to prove there isn't a God, but "blessed are those who have not seen and still believe." It is extremely difficult to place your whole reason for living in something or someone you've never seen and never heard, but it's really funny how when I do that, everything works out. I just can't understand why it is such a painful or shunfull thing to believe in God. I suppose that's all of my ramblings. Enter the lions...

When I registered on the forums, I was a Christian.

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Trying to save us from some evil God who loves every one of us, including you?

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If he loves us so damn much, then why are we all destined to hell by default? Whats up with the genocide, baby killing, all that good stuff? God is highly emotional.

On top of that, he changes the rules in the middile of the game. When people were rockin' to the beat of the Old testament which basically says God is angry and will kick your ass, the people of the churches saw that it was not a good long-term investment strategy, so what happens? They change God around to make him a nice guy all of a sudden. But you still get to go to hell for picking the wrong religion, not becoming enlightened, dying after you were born and going to hell since you were born into sin and didn't recieve Christ, all sorts of good stuff.

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Why do you feel the need to prove believers wrong?

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I used to be a believer myself as well until I realized that their is nothing there. I prefer the term "enlighten". I'm trying to enlighten them to the fact that the Christian God is either a gross misinterpretation, or a lie and a primitive human construct. If you never experienced Christianity, and some fool from another town runs in talking about his invisile friend, you would laugh him rigt back to where he came from? No?

Any God that is more primitive in logic than the men he created, which shows itself to be true today, is no God worthy of worship at all. Read the Bible. God uses violence as a solution out of choice, that is an illogical solution.

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Christianity is not some kind of disease. You don't even really have to belong to a church, since some of them do not follow the ways of Christ anyway, but seriously, how would it hurt you to believe?

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Look at the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition. It does hurt to believe, but it hurt even more if you didn't believe then because they would torture you endlessly until you did.

It hurts to believe because it costs you your rational mind. It hurts to believe because you are binded by 2,000 year old outmoded, outdated, and obsolete religious laws. Remember when eating meat on a Friday was punishable by death according to religious doctrine? Know why it changed? Because society changed and religion had to change with it. Society made the religion, they made the God, so it's only fitting, right? Hell, I bet that when we progress another 2,000 years, if mankind is still around, we will look back on today's inferior reasoning and religion will have changed right up there to the current societal views of the time period.

Back in the day you had to sacrifice animals at the atar. Today if you did that, your liable to get slammed for animal cruelty charges. Animals have rights nowadays, pretty soon we'll be having tea and crumpets with them and we'll all be vegans.

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That is not a threat, but everyone here knows the Christian beliefs in the consequences for not believing in God,

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The fact that God chooses punishment over enlightenment shows just what your dealing with. Any God that would punish is a petty, humanistic God. A "perfect" God would have ascended above punishment. Punishment is a simplistic human concept, an all knowing all forgiving, all perfect being would be above that. God isn't above that. If God is going to create people and give them free will, then don't punish them for only being human.

God gives us the urge to reproduce but forbids it before marriage. That's mean. God should have designed reproductive urges to occur after marriage takes place, but God isn't fair or understanding, so he didn't.

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Another thing is that it is so easy not to believe! There are so many things in this world, yourselves included, that try to prove there isn't a God, but "blessed are those who have not seen and still believe."

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That passage is there strictly for the purpose to make you feel better that you are believing in something that has no evidence of existence. that's the same as me saying "Blessed are those that think Leprechauns exist without proof (because there is none and never will be any)". It's no different. If there is anything logic has taught us, it's that you shouldn't believe everything you read, if it's too good to be true, it probably is, and that if there is no proof or evidence to validae a claim, it's false until proven otherwise.

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It is extremely difficult to place your whole reason for living in something or someone you've never seen and never heard, but it's really funny how when I do that, everything works out. I just can't understand why it is such a painful or shunfull thing to believe in God.

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It's actually pretty easy. What you do is you take your rational mind, everything you know and use to debase false claims, and throw it right out the window. It's not painful to believe in God, it's painful not to believe in God, because when you realize that God doesn't exist, you see reality. You see people blowing themselves up with 50 other people for a God that doesn't exist. You see people that think they are the "chosen ones" by this non-existent deity that think they are entitled to something, but they never get it. If Jews are teh chosen ones, then why the hell are they the most oppressed and beat on people in existence? Seems like they got chose to be the doormat of the world.

When you realize God doesn't exist, you start finding the rational explinations in the things you once attributed to an invisible man. when you realize god doesn't exist, you know that it's a perfect explanation for the sad state of things, whereas if he did exist he would have a hell of alot of explaining to do. And finally, when you realize God doesn't exist, you discover why there has never been any proof verifying his existence and why you don't see any creationism in respected scientific journals.

It's the easiest thing in the world to make claims with no evidence, and religion does that. They tell you things that you only find in farytales and your imagination, and cause you to actually believe them, because they make it sound good. It milks your mind, tells you a bunch of stuff you can somewhat relate to, and then it's a snowball process from there with all of the social pressure and propaganda religions have.

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Enter the lions...

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Reality check. The cold meathook of reality sucks, but we have to live with it. You can make up your own personal Wonderland in your head and try to escape it, but it will always catch back up to you. It's just a matter of which you believe more, the real world in which we live, or some 2,000 year old book of fairytales.

God is a reflection of the time in which he was created. You of all people should see that.

[This message has been edited by Dark_Magneto (edited 08-15-2002).]

Those who live their life by "how could it hurt?" have no principles or self respect.

Oh you poor little MAJORITY christian boy, shield yourself from the tyrannical atheists who question your faith. Life is so hard for you in Never never land, where it rains candy and everyone sit around harps thanking themselves.

And if you don't take the time to read what Dark had to say, you have no reason to continue on, because you obviously just want to hear yourself talk.

I, like Dark, was also a Christian when I came to this board. Asking questions like "why God?" got me nowhere.

Evidence Evidence Evidence
Weeellll, I've got evidences,
It does exist,

I had no idea people came to the board Christian and realized there was something amiss with the whole thing, changing their views. That's actually pretty refreshing, for some reason.

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Originally posted by evolove:
Evidence Evidence Evidence
Weeellll, I've got evidences,
It does exist,

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You have evidence that proves God exists?! What have you found that Christians, Scientists, Archaeologists, Evolutionists, and Philosophers failed to produce over thousands of years?

When it comes to discussions regarding Organized Religion and Christianity in particular, Chistians have a fabulous set of blinders on them and are unable to compromise what they have been taught by their religious upbringing and what factual and unbiased science teaches. They are emotionally attached to the point of view which has been drummed into them.

There is more evidence against God than there is for it. Take vestigal features for example, and obvious evolutionary screw-up. If your a creationist, how do you explain them? Did God "screw up" when making the creature? Why do manitees have toenails? they don't do anything for them and are yet another useless feature. A perfect God's designs wouldn not have such flaws. I got a million examples.

If you examine the data from a viewpoint of philosophical naturalism, you get "I don't know yet but hope to find out" + Big Bang + astronomical formation + abiogenesis + evolution. If you examine the data from a viewpoint of supernaturalism, you still get most of those and theistic evolution.

Only if you start from the assumption that one particular interpretation of Genesis 1 is correct and above what we can observe do the problems develop. A "just" God and Harlequinn fetus Syndrome(warning, this will give you nightmares) don't go hand in hand. This is an obvious evolutionary screw-up, and wouldn't happen in a world where a "just" God gives everyone a fair chance.

The debate over the veracity of the Bible, especially the first part of Genesis has raged for over a century. During this century, many scientifically trained people have left the faith they were raise with because they could not see how to reconcile Genesis and Science. Many have observed that if the Bible is not historically true, then there is no reason to believe the claims that the Bible makes for our lives. I agree with this point.

With that in mind, Ezekiel predicted Babylon would conquer Egypt and was wrong. Ezekiel predicted the destruction of Tyre by Nebuchadrezzar and was wrong again. I would say that the Bible isn't accurate based off of that, and an innaccurate Bible is worthless.

When you realize that God never existed, it explains alot of scriptural problems, failed prophecy, contradictions, Moses writing about his own death after he died, and the current state of the world. If God has omnicience, he knew the world would degenerate into what it is today and not only allowed it to happen, but caused it to happen.


[This message has been edited by Dark_Magneto (edited 08-15-2002).]

What a shitty argument. God cant exist because manatees have toe-nails?

I asked what their explanation for it was if they wer creationists. I never said that it was proof God doesn't exist.

God doesn't fuck up and he created everything, so what's up with the design flaws?

Flaws? What flaws?

I realise that this topic was made with Christianity in mind but it's not the only religion in the world, disproving the "bible" doesn't come close to disproving God,

"A swami may concievably follow only the path of dry reasoning, of cold renunciation; but a yogi engages him/herself in a definate, step-by-step procedure by which the body and mind are disiplined and the soul gradualy liberated. Taking nothing for granted on emotional grounds or by faith, a yogi practices a thorurghly tested series of exercises that were first mapped out by the ancient Rishis. In every age of India, yoga has produced men who became truly free, true Yogi-Christs." -Book

I know this gets right off the piont, but I don't think you knew this, you certainly seem to ingore it if you had, and this is only one small bit of one of the multitudes of different practices utilised by humanity to gain higher knowledge, soul/sprit/mind wise

"There is more evidence against God than there is for it." - this I completely disagree with,
There has never been any failure to provide evidence, you just have not found it,
Take for example your, Dark's, encounter with the thingy borad, I'm not even going to try and spell that, there would be a multitude of people who would discount your stories a complete lies, others, unshure could acount it to some science that we don't yet know of, other would conjure something else,
But we'll deal here with those that scream lie, I don't think that you story is because that doesn't seem your character, so asumming it's true, apart from wittness testimonies I think there would be little evidence you could use to support your claims, you see what I'm getting at, their would have been no way that you'd known about the extremes that something like this could go to, until you saw for yourself, so you could be lying, so could all the others who have claimed the same thing, you could have drasticaly mispercieved normal phenomenon, and you'd probably snarl at the thought of that from your discriptions of the events, their could be a perfectly dry scientific explaination, or it could have been some kind of discarnate entity, but for me to now say that your experience was complete bullshit, there was absolutely nothing in it, in fact it never happened, you mearly manurfactured a story that you thought would win you some net friends, misdirecting others for your own ends, and while I'm hear I not only completely discount your experiences (from the other side of the globe) but I discount all of the other similar experiences throughout histroy as bullshit,

Are you lying?

That is a good argument, but the rest of us have no reason to base our faith off of someone else's experience.

<<There has never been any failure to provide evidence, you just have not found it<<
I agree

Atheist are only on a search for evidence against it. Maybe they are too proud to find out they are wrong, maybe they don't want god to exist, but there is a lot of interesting connections that exist in life like make you seriously ponder. Its just a shame religeons have confused people so much, and thrown them way off track as to what God is.
Buddism seems pretty close, but they don't refer to god that much. With buddism it's more of a mind thing, but i say that God is more of a mind thing anyway. Kinda like the collective conciousness that exists throughout existance.

Sorry Cammie, i say your god does exist, but your religeon has misunderstood the teachings of Jesus and is completely unnecassary.

[This message has been edited by Beany (edited 08-15-2002).]

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Originally posted by evolove:
Flaws? What flaws?

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Oh, so Harlequinn Fetus Syndrome isn't a flaw? It's got to be the most horrible fuck-up I have seen in my entire life, and that's saying alot.

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I realise that this topic was made with Christianity in mind but it's not the only religion in the world, disproving the "bible" doesn't come close to disproving God,

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Not the concept, no. You can never kill an opinion. You can just cast such an overwhelming doubt on the whole religion based on their Dogma and make a conclusion about that specific religion's "God" afterward. There are many different Gods, the Christian God is just one of them.

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"There is more evidence against God than there is for it." - this I completely disagree with, There has never been any failure to provide evidence, you just have not found it,

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The fact that we are here does not verify the existence of any God, it just compounds the fact we don't know our origins. Likewise, if there was any hard evidence of God's existence, there wouldn't be any debate on his existence; you could always check back on the hard evidence and know for a fact beyond any reasonable doubt that he exists.

I have never experienced God in any fashion. From the moment I was born to the time I typed this post, no God. Where is this God? I can't find him for nothing. I can't believe in something that distributes all the properties of non-existence and none of the properties of existence. He's invisible to any and all forms of detection, which is a crushing blow to his existence right there, but on top of all of that he doesn't interfere with the affairs of man and allows things to happen exactly as they would naturally if he didn't exist at all.

From this, I feel safe in making the logical conclusion that he doesn't exist. Someone could have just as easily wrote a book about their all-powerful invisible best friend, and it would be the same.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and behaves like a duck, a logical conclusion would be that it's a duck.

If you can't see it at all, see no observable effects that can be directly attributed to it and noneother, and never evxperience it in any way,shape, form, or fashion throughout your life, what would be the most logical answer? You do the math.

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Take for example your, Dark's, encounter with the thingy borad, I'm not even going to try and spell that, there would be a multitude of people who would discount your stories a complete lies, others, unshure could acount it to some science that we don't yet know of, other would conjure something else,

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I make no definitive claims as to what caused the actions revolving around the whole Ouija board episode. I don't know what it was, but that doesn't mean I'm going to make up an irrational ad-hoc answer for it because I need an explanation.

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But we'll deal here with those that scream lie, I don't think that you story is because that doesn't seem your character, so asumming it's true, apart from wittness testimonies I think there would be little evidence you could use to support your claims,

you see what I'm getting at, their would have been no way that you'd known about the extremes that something like this could go to, until you saw for yourself, so you could be lying, so could all the others who have claimed the same thing, you could have drasticaly mispercieved normal phenomenon, and you'd probably snarl at the thought of that from your discriptions of the events,

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No, that's possible. The chances of it being like you described are about the same as getting struck by lightning 10 times while simultaneously winning the lotto, but it's possible. Anything is possible, it's just a matter of if it happens or not.

On some off-chance, we could have all been hallucinating due to the exact atmospheric pressure, combined with the gravitational pull on the moon, a solar flare, temporal anomoly, and magnetic tempest. I don't deny that possibility. But when you ask people about the writers of the bible, some of which that used peyote and other mind-altering substances, they vehemantly denounce it.

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Are you lying?

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Not to the best of my, or anyone else that was there's knowledge.

Beany, I would love to believe in a God, but I can't justify it.
Don't say things about atheists that can be flipped around right back at Theists

You say:
Maybe they are too proud to find out they are wrong, maybe they don't want god to exist

I say:
Maybe they are too proud to find out they are wrong, maybe they want god to exist

[This message has been edited by Bogey Man (edited 08-15-2002).]

Much like Bogey, I cannot use threat of future vindication to justify a current belief. I cannot believe in something because it threatens me with eternal damnation. I will applaud the use of reason, rationale, and logic in enlightening people over social pressure, propaganda, and threat.

If this means that I will be damned after I die for not knowing the right religion, despite being given no clear indication as to which one that may be, than so be it. But if your God is really as forgiving as they say he is, then perhaps he could forgive such a minor oversight.

After all, we're only human.

[This message has been edited by Dark_Magneto (edited 08-15-2002).]

"If you can't see it at all, see no observable effects that can be directly attributed to it and noneother, and never evxperience it in any way,shape, form, or fashion throughout your life, what would be the most logical answer?"

I haven't, you haven't, but that doesn't mean that you cannot. You can, that is what I mean by evidence, evidence you discount, but this is not my evidence, as I said I havent had the plessure yet,

"No, that's possible. The chances of it being like you described are about the same as getting struck by lightning 10 times while simultaneously winning the lotto, but it's possible. Anything is possible, it's just a matter of if it happens or not."

This is a bit different from when I said it was possible for Lepracauhns to exist, fuck that sounds stupid, Lepracauchns I mean,

"Not to the best of my, or anyone else that was there's knowledge."

The samething applies to the testemony of Samahdi, there is definately something there, which despite what you say, I don't think you've discounted an absolute conciousness completely, well you shouldn't have anyway

"I make no definitive claims as to what caused the actions revolving around the whole Ouija board episode. I don't know what it was, but that doesn't mean I'm going to make up an irrational ad-hoc answer for it because I need an explanation."

Neither do I, about anything that I don't know about, well thats not completely true, I usualy have an idea, like an abstract, I see the testemonies of others, my own expereinces and correralte them to get idea of what I think the particualar answer is, but by no means do I think that I'm right, esspecialy when I have no evidince apart from my own thought about others who have no evidence,

"If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and behaves like a duck, a logical conclusion would be that it's a duck."

Samadhi, looks like God, walks like God, talks like God, and behaves like God, so do blame people for this conclusion, I think that they're probably right, thats no secret, but I don't what to jump anywhere until I see the duck for myself, (ref. back to the first statement)

I'll think some more latter

The so called "proof" you claim exists is pseudoscience. It postulates select factors and arrives and draws a basis from them, uses ad-hoc hypothesies, irrational conclusions based on absence of data, and is inherently unscientific.

You don't see Steven Hawkings writing about this shit, do ya? You don't see any credible scientific journals or peer reviews publishing articles of such a nature, huh? It's because they would be laughed right out of the scientific community and torn apart by fellow logic-using scientists with the grim efficiency of wild dogs.

With the same logic they use, I could argue that the Earth is flat and give you alternate outlandishly rediculous alternate explanations for things, prove nothing myself, but you wouldn't be able to disprove me. At some point, I would build a reenforced concrete barrier around my mind 40 feet thick that no amount of logic could cut through and you could not convince me that the Earth was round because I have an alternate crazy explanation for everything.

I can't prove the earth is flat, but you can't disprove me either. I could use such arguments like a quantum time-space fluctuation at the edges of the Earth teleports you to the other side in the same direction, so it provides the illusion that you circled the Earth and the Earth appears round from space because of the way gravity bends light.

believe it or not, there are people to thid day that still believe the earth is round despote being thourougly debunked. they cannot be disproven, because they have an alternate explanation for everything. They are fucking idiots, but we can't prove them wrong. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, no matter how ludicrously crazy, or obviously flawed it is.

You can;t disprove an opinion, just remove all it's credibility as a valid theory.

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Originally posted by Dark_Magneto:
When I registered on the forums, I was a Christian.

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Nothing quite like a loss of faith to make a person bitter and twisted.

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If he loves us so damn much, then why are we all destined to hell by default? Whats up with the genocide, baby killing, all that good stuff? God is highly emotional.

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man you condemn all the religions and yet continue to talk their doctrine as though it is true.

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I used to be a believer myself as well until I realized that their is nothing there. I prefer the term "enlighten". I'm trying to enlighten them to the fact that the Christian God is either a gross misinterpretation, or a lie and a primitive human construct.

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Apparently what you mistake as your belief in God was nothing but an idealogical deception that you fell for and now you are so pissed off!

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Any God that is more primitive in logic than the men he created, which shows itself to be true today, is no God worthy of worship at all. Read the Bible. God uses violence as a solution out of choice, that is an illogical solution.

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Are you so naive that you actually believe that the bible has not been altered to allow the control freaks to rule?

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Look at the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition. It does hurt to believe, but it hurt even more if you didn't believe then because they would torture you endlessly until you did.[/UNQUOTE]

Exactly, religion took that which is meant to free the mind and distorted it into hellfire and damnation.

[QUOTE]It hurts to believe because it costs you your rational mind. It hurts to believe because you are binded by 2,000 year old outmoded, outdated, and obsolete religious laws. Remember when eating meat on a Friday was punishable by death according to religious doctrine? Know why it changed? Because society changed and religion had to change with it. Society made the religion, they made the God, so it's only fitting, right?

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Perhaps it hurts you to believe you were duped, fact is everybody serves somebody or something. That becomes your supreme/almighty, and you then serve your god of negativity with an enthusiasm that defies rational belief.

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The fact that God chooses punishment over enlightenment shows just what your dealing with. Any God that would punish is a petty, humanistic God. A "perfect" God would have ascended above punishment.

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This is nothing more than your concept of God from whatever cult you were brainwashed in!

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Punishment is a simplistic human concept, an all knowing all forgiving, all perfect being would be above that. God isn't above that. If God is going to create people and give them free will, then don't punish them for only being human.

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Yeah well there's punishment and there's discipline. depends on how one perceives it with a neagtive or positive attitude.

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God gives us the urge to reproduce but forbids it before marriage. That's mean. God should have designed reproductive urges to occur [b]after marriage takes place, but God isn't fair or understanding, so he didn't.

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Again you are deceived, marriage is not in the scripture apart from a man 'knowing' a woman. Sex is marriage.

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When you realize God doesn't exist, you start finding the rational explinations in the things you once attributed to an invisible man. when you realize god doesn't exist, you know that it's a perfect explanation for the sad state of things, whereas if he did exist he would have a hell of alot of explaining to do. And finally, when you realize God doesn't exist, you discover why there has never been any proof verifying his existence and why you don't see any creationism in respected scientific journals.

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Of course you are the fount of all wisdom, you have searched the universe, discovered the unifying laws of physics and can fully explain the origin of the universe and how it ends!

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It's the easiest thing in the world to make claims with no evidence,

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Precisely what you are doing with your patronising attitude.

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and religion does that.

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Again with the religion, for a person who claims to think for themself you seem to have a hard time getting over it! What pitiful creatures you and your compatriots come across as, no hope, no future.

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Enter the lions...

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Reality check. The cold meathook of reality sucks, but we have to live with it. You can make up your own personal Wonderland in your head and try to escape it, but it will always catch back up to you.

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Sounds like you are stuck in your own personal Badland and you viciously attack anyone who thinks differently.

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God is a reflection of the time in which he was created.

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Your concept of God!

Did I hit a sore spot Dark?
You and me are so similar, and so different that it's scary,
Forgive me for jumping to conclusions but I don't think that Stephen Hawking has ever expreinced Samadhi, and dispite what you may think he isn't that great, exept at science, "but what else is there" I here you say?

I never actualy gave you any proof, nothing meant that way at least,

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Originally posted by redzed:
Nothing quite like a loss of faith to make a person bitter and twisted.

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I'm not bitter or twisted, just a little irate.

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man you condemn all the religions and yet continue to talk their doctrine as though it is true.

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I'm playing through their hypothetical situation to give insight to the validity of their claims. If it's true, then what's up with this, this, and this. Why are there these many contradictions, why did he say this would happen at this time, but it never did. Things like that. It's not too hard to figure out.

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Apparently what you mistake as your belief in God was nothing but an idealogical deception that you fell for and now you are so pissed off!

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If you believed in something for 20 years, and then later found it not to be true, wouldn't you be a little disgruntled? It's like realizing you have been in the Matrix for a quarter of your life. So many things I refused to consider because it conflicted with the narrow-minded belief system I subscribed to.

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Are you so naive that you actually believe that the bible has not been altered to allow the control freaks to rule?

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Hell no, but many others do. They can stay wise in their own conceits if they must.

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Perhaps it hurts you to believe you were duped, fact is everybody serves somebody or something. That becomes your supreme/almighty, and you then serve your god of negativity with an enthusiasm that defies rational belief.

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Just because you serve something doesn't make it your "supreme/almighty". If I have a job, that doesn't make my employer God. That's a non-sequitur. Then you call it a God of negativity that "defies rational belief".

News flash. All beliefs are irrational. If you had a completely rational reason to think it, then it wouldn't be a "belief".

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This is nothing more than your concept of God from whatever cult you were brainwashed in!

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It is their concept of God. I have no concept of any Deity/Deities/Deii, because so far all they have shown is that they don't exist.

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Yeah well there's punishment and there's discipline. depends on how one perceives it with a neagtive or positive attitude.

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The attitude has nothing to do with it. It is all in the method in which the punishment/discipline or whatever you would call it is administered.

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Again you are deceived, marriage is not in the scripture apart from a man 'knowing' a woman. Sex is marriage.

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Then what's up with "adulterers" being stoned to death and sex before conventional marriage being highly shunned?

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Of course you are the fount of all wisdom, you have searched the universe, discovered the unifying laws of physics and can fully explain the origin of the universe and how it ends!

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Now you are just coming down with a mad case of selective observation while you attribute things to me in a sarcastic overtone that I never even claimed to begin with. I never made any definitive claims, I never said I had the answer, and I never said I could fully explain everything.

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Again with the religion, for a person who claims to think for themself you seem to have a hard time getting over it! What pitiful creatures you and your compatriots come across as, no hope, no future.

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You don't "get over" something like this any more than you get over losing a hand. Your always going to be left with that constant reminder of what happened. "Hope" never accomplished anything, and everyone has a future. Theres no telling what it may be because only time will tell, but everyone has one. Based on my current state, if it remains a constant, things are looking pretty damn good.

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Sounds like you are stuck in your own personal Badland and you viciously attack anyone who thinks differently.

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I tear down anything that tells me that I am going to a bad place if I don't believe in what they believe in. Anything that comes along talking about how it's logical fallacy, contradictory, thesis/anti-thesis schizophrenic belief system is the one and only supreme truth has to be confronted. It's an abombination to mankind and eats away rational minds.

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Your concept of God!

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The Christian concept of God. I have no concept of God. God is just a word to describe what created our current state, that doesn't make it some omnipotent mentally inferior schizophrenic being with a superiority complex.

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Originally posted by evolove:
I never actualy gave you any proof, nothing meant that way at least.

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Ah. It appeared as if you were trying to insinuate that there was proof that verified a particular religion. Every religion has it's miracles, but none of them have what can constitute itself as "proof".

[This message has been edited by Dark_Magneto (edited 08-16-2002).]

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Originally posted by Dark_Magneto:
[/B]

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I'm not bitter or twisted, just a little irate.

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A little! lol

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If you believed in something for 20 years, and then later found it not to be true, wouldn't you be a little disgruntled? It's like realizing you have been in the Matrix for a quarter of your life. So many things I refused to consider because it conflicted with the narrow-minded belief system I subscribed to.

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In my case it was about 11 years, and yeah I am a little disgruntled, but it’s with the limitations of human understanding rather with the universe in general. (being in the Matrix is a good similie!)

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Just because you serve something doesn't make it your "supreme/almighty". If I have a job, that doesn't make my employer God. That's a non-sequitur. Then you call it a God of negativity that "defies rational belief".
News flash. All beliefs are irrational. If you had a completely rational reason to think it, then it wouldn't be a "belief".

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Well thanks for the patronizing enlightenement … however it still remains that while you are serving your employer, you are not free, you are acting in servitude to another who is in a superior position. Your choice is a positive or negative response.
For thousands of years millions of other humans have wondered about god and, in the context of their experience, have tried to define their origins; and you take that negatively and call it a primitive construct. Life is a journey of discovery, once you believed your religion to be truth, now you believe it a lie, ultimate knowledge is the province of God, as Jesus said “Ye are Gods”. The journey is not yet over, perhaps it never is, the point is in the attitude.

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Then what's up with "adulterers" being stoned to death and sex before conventional marriage being highly shunned?

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Must have been a harsh religion brother, in reality if all the sex before marriagers were shunned we’d all be hermits. As for the adulterers Jesus clearly showed the religious teachers error when He said “let he who is without sin cast the first stone”. For thousand of years the Hebrews had stoned adulterers and along comes this carpenter and embarrasses them with simple logic.

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Now you are just coming down with a mad case of selective observation while you attribute things to me in a sarcastic overtone that I never even claimed to begin with. I never made any definitive claims, I never said I had the answer, and I never said I could fully explain everything.

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Hmmm, sarcasm, satire, hey bro I’m sorry if I offended you, well not really, I believe it’s not honourable to apologise unless truly convicted of wrong, and I certainly did not intend to offend. Dialectics are a wonderful part of life’s rich tapestry of worthwhile endeavours.
However you do seem to claim to be able to explain everything:

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I'm trying to enlighten them to the fact that the Christian God is either a gross misinterpretation, or a lie and a primitive human construct.
It hurts to believe because it costs you your rational mind.
It's not painful to believe in God, it's painful not to believe in God, because when you realize that God doesn't exist, you see reality. You see people blowing themselves up with 50 other people for a God that doesn't exist. You see people that think they are the "chosen ones" by this non-existent deity
When you realize God doesn't exist, you start finding the rational explinations in the things you once attributed to an invisible man. when you realize god doesn't exist, you know that it's a perfect explanation for the sad state of things, whereas if he did exist he would have a hell of alot of explaining to do. And finally, when you realize God doesn't exist, you discover why there has never been any proof verifying his existence and why you don't see any creationism in respected scientific journals.
When you realize that God never existed

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Your statements bro, they are direct and unmistakeable dogmas, but hey there’s some intelligent thought there that I find …… refreshing? Maybe if you owned your statements a little more openly and, less preachy?

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You don't "get over" something like this any more than you get over losing a hand. Your always going to be left with that constant reminder of what happened. "Hope" never accomplished anything, and everyone has a future. Theres no telling what it may be because only time will tell, but everyone has one. Based on my current state, if it remains a constant, things are looking pretty damn good.

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So .. don’t get mad get even? Is that your answer, rob others of faith as you had yours stolen? Hope has accomplished far more than anything else in my life, without hope, maybe there would only be despair, so perhaps for you there is no hope because nothing has been accomplished in your life through hope, but I feel that you are preaching here, and it’s a message of negativity, no answers, no hope.

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I tear down anything that tells me that I am going to a bad place if I don't believe in what they believe in. Anything that comes along talking about how it's logical fallacy, contradictory, thesis/anti-thesis schizophrenic belief system is the one and only supreme truth has to be confronted. It's an abombination to mankind and eats away rational minds.

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Yeah, can see how you feel that way, it’s so tragic that people spend their lives in fear of what ‘may’ happen whilst all the while denying the reality of the hell of the present.

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The Christian concept of God. I have no concept of God. God is just a word to describe what created our current state, that doesn't make it some omnipotent mentally inferior schizophrenic being with a superiority complex.

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Dark, consider your statement here “I have no concept of God”. No concept? What is “God is just a word to describe what created our current state, that doesn't make it some omnipotent mentally inferior schizophrenic being with a superiority complex.”
Sounds awfully like a concept to me. lol. Mate I’m not being sarcastic, I just see this as a contradiction, this is not a condemnation or judgement on you, simply an observation.

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When I registered on the forums, I was a Christian.

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This is unutterably sad!

“In the beginning was Reason, and Reason was with God and Reason was God”. (Paraphrase John 1:1)
The word translated in the ‘christian’ bible as Word is Logos in greek and may also be understood as Reason. You worship this God of Reason, Logos-logic, you’re posts are peppered with abeyance to reason and logic.

“And Reason became flesh and dwelt amongst us, full of grace and truth”!

Know the truth and the truth shall set you free was the message of Reason, and ain’t it the truth, knowing the truth of the cult you were in set you free--how has it so hardened your heart?

Everyone, Stop picking each others statements apart and say what you want to say. The quick Jabs are getting kind of old.

Geez, a lot of the time you pick apart a statement that might sound bad as a singular, but put into the whole makes perfect sense, STOP.

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Originally posted by Bogey Man:
Everyone, Stop picking each others statements apart and say what you want to say. The quick Jabs are getting kind of old.

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I agree, and it results in waaaay long messages

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Originally posted by Bogey Man:
Geez, a lot of the time you pick apart.

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eh?

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Originally posted by Bogey Man:
A statement that might sound bad as a singular, but put into the whole makes perfect sense, STOP.

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Just kiddin Bogey, i agree with what you're sayin, there's way too much quotin going on

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Originally posted by redzed:
For thousands of years millions of other humans have wondered about god and, in the context of their experience, have tried to define their origins; and you take that negatively and call it a primitive construct.

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Allow me to clarify. I think it shows pretty clearly that the Christian God, and all it's subsidiaries like the polytheistic Mormon cults and such, are a primitive human construct. Then I started thinking, "Well, if this religion is wrong, and many of the other religions you can tell are wrong just by looking at them, what's to say that all of them aren't?"

When I say "primitive human construct", it is only in reference to the Biblical God.

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Life is a journey of discovery, once you believed your religion to be truth, now you believe it a lie, ultimate knowledge is the province of God, as Jesus said "Ye are Gods". The journey is not yet over, perhaps it never is, the point is in the attitude.

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Jesus also said that those that believe in him could handle snakes, heal the sick, and drink poison with no consequence. Now common sense will tell you that if you slam a glass of arsenic, it's going to fuck you up and/or kill you. The beliefs in your brain aren't going to magically stop the poisin from running it's course through your body. Likewise, you don't see many faith "healings" outside of televangelism.

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However you do seem to claim to be able to explain everything.

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If that's how you interpreted it, I didn't mean to come off that way. I didn't claim that I could "explain everything" or that I knew what the one supreme truth is. However, I do know what it isn't. Simple reasoning: When something claims to be perfect but doesn't show it, it's not perfect. Simple as that, open and shut case.

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So .. don’t get mad get even? Is that your answer, rob others of faith as you had yours stolen?

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I didn't have my faith "stolen", I forefeited it. I can't rob anyone of anything on a forum, it is ultimately their choice in what they believe. I can't force them to believe in God, and I can't force them not to. and I wouldn't want to force anything on anyone anyway even if I could.

And as for hope, it's basically another way of saying wishful thinking. Hope never accomplished anything. You could sit around and hope all day and it wouldn't do a damn thing. Action is what produces the desired effects, not hope. Hope may give you the motivation to take action, but when I realized what hope was, I just skipped the wishful thinking part and cut straight to getting the job done. If you need hope, then so be it. But since I changed who I was, I cast aside "wishing" for "doing".

It is still good to have a positive outlook on life though, don't get me wrong, but actions speak louder and accomplish more than hope. I found that hope is mainly an emotional response to a desired outcome. Once I saw that, I decided I didn;t need it anymore. i still function like I have hope, but instead of hoping, I just do what I can to get what I want and then wait and see the result.

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This is unutterably sad!

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Yeah, it is sad that I was a Christian, but hey, I got better. I'm acually open to logical explanations now.

Ya know.... we spend alot of time in this topic talking about religion, God, prophets, and hell. And well, we do it because personally, I think it's fuckin' funny. All these years, all this technology, the entire culmination of the compendium of all human knowledge, and we still can't answer those 2 questions that have plagued mankind for centuries. "How did we get here and why are we here?".

Myself, I don't think we will ever find the answer. Belief structures work for some, but if you really take a hard honest to goodness look at them and set aside that hard drilled "faith" principle that people have imbedded in their heads for just a second, you'll realize that they don't provide the answers either. I finally realize that lifes to short to be killing yourself (and each other) over what ahppens to you after you die. So live your life, have a good time, sit back, relax, and enjoy the ride.

To quote Yamamoto Tsunetomo:

"There is surely nothing other than the single purpose of the present moment. A man's whole life is a succession of moment after moment. If one fully understands the present moment, there will be nothing else to do, and nothing left to pursue."

[This message has been edited by Dark_Magneto (edited 08-16-2002).]

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Originally posted by Dark_Magneto:
[B] Allow me to clarify. I think it shows pretty clearly that the Christian God, and all it's subsidiaries like the polytheistic Mormon cults and such, are a primitive human construct. Then I started thinking, "Well, if this religion is wrong, and many of the other religions you can tell are wrong just by looking at them, what's to say that all of them aren't?"

When I say "primitive human construct", it is only in reference to the Biblical God.

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Tend to agree here, they all have some uniqueness and most have some truth, but once bitten twice shy hey! I would find it very difficult to ever trust another religion, seems they tell you all good things until your hooked, then hit ya with the bad news.

Was the Mormon church the cult you were in?

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Jesus also said that those that believe in him could handle snakes, heal the sick, and drink poison with no consequence. Now common sense will tell you that if you slam a glass of arsenic, it's going to fuck you up and/or kill you. The beliefs in your brain aren't going to magically stop the poisin from running it's course through your body. Likewise, you don't see many faith "healings" outside of televangelism.

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There's quite a bit of disagreement over whether this passage was in the originals or added later. Fact is the Bible was put together by the Roman Catholics who went on to persecute and murder, by burning at the stake, millions of people, then along came the reformation and the protestants adopted the RC's bible whilst calling the pope antichrist. Then the RC's added some books, but the protestants who call the pope evil still kept the original 66 books.

Is it just coincidence that the bible of 66 books carried by a man whose number is 6(created sixth day) adds up to 666 the number of the beast? Could explain why so many are so bigoted and intolerant of other beliefs.

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Yeah, it is sad that I was a Christian, but hey, I got better. I'm acually open to logical explanations now.

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Good, there is a difference between spirituality and churchianity you know.

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Ya know.... we spend alot of time in this topic talking about religion, God, prophets, and hell. And well, we do it because personally, I think it's fuckin' funny. All these years, all this technology, the entire culmination of the compendium of all human knowledge, and we still can't answer those 2 questions that have plagued mankind for centuries. "How did we get here and why are we here?".

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Mysteries are usually the most fascinating and challenging things in life, maybe that's why it is this way, to keep it interesting. But if it's just for fun that's cool too.

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Myself, I don't think we will ever find the answer. Belief structures work for some, but if you really take a hard honest to goodness look at them and set aside that hard drilled "faith" principle that people have imbedded in their heads for just a second, you'll realize that they don't provide the answers either. I finally realize that lifes to short to be killing yourself (and each other) over what ahppens to you after you die. So live your life, have a good time, sit back, relax, and enjoy the ride.

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Sounds good; do think there's a difference between faith and blind faith. Some people believe in religion, whatever, without ever questioning it and yeah incredible that people are prepared to murder and commit unspeakable acts to others over a difference of opinion on a subject that can not be definetivly proven.

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To quote Yamamoto Tsunetomo:

"There is surely nothing other than the single purpose of the present moment. A man's whole life is a succession of moment after moment. If one fully understands the present moment, there will be nothing else to do, and nothing left to pursue."

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So true, even if we do live forever it will only be moment by moment and if we don't then maybe in the brief interval of time as the lights go out we will feel terrible regret for wasting this life.

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Everyone, Stop picking each others statements apart and say what you want to say. The quick Jabs are getting kind of old.
Geez, a lot of the time you pick apart a statement that might sound bad as a singular, but put into the whole makes perfect sense, STOP.

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Sorry Bogey but it's a 'virtual' conversation.