i grew up in a christian family and i still am...... ne-ways a question for u christians.... what if i grew up with indians and was taught to worship a statue they made? thats a sin in christianity but i would know of nothing else and strongly belive in this statue and nothing can turn me away from it.... so would "god" grant me leanancy or something? or am i bound to hell?

-Bliizzard (atheist)

Bliz,

The paradox you point out is one that has plagued prophesizing religions throughout history. However, the direct answer to your question is obvious...it would make absolutely no difference to you because your religious values would not include the concepts extolled by another religion.

But the real question is: How do the major organized religions view same?

Judaism- could care less.

Muslim- looking for converts.

Christianity- looking for converts.

But in reality, aren't all three worshiping the same deity?

Nox

what about the pagan religions like the Greeks, Celts, Nordics and North Americans believed in?

or Voodoo where its more of just a set of superstitions?

where is the link between those?

Bogey,

You're right, there is no link. They could care less whether there are converts or not. Theirs is a homogeneous group with a homogenous religion. The concept of spreading "The Word" or "The Good News" is absolutely alien to them.

Nox

what happened to the pagans (from a monotheistic view) since there was no belief in one God at the time?

Bogey,

Yet again you are right. But you don't see the big point from the monotheistic religions' point of view.

Beginning with the Jews...They have no problem with pagans going to hell...not their (the Jews) problem. The Jews are the chosen people.

Next, the Muslims...Technically they have no problem either because they trace their lineage to Abraham. Here comes the rub: Abraham's lineage back to Adam comes from Jewish documents. Hold you breath waiting for them (Muslims) to go that route. However, the point still remains, that those "other" ancients don't count.

Now for the biggie...Christianity. Mega-problems...Christians were "the non-chosen" people. Now they (the Christians) have to answer the question, because it's not just "them" (the Ancients), but "US"...all of us.

I won't go into the theological babble used to try to answer the question, but you understand the problem...especially because 'God is a loving God'.

Nox

quote:

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Originally posted by Nox:
But in reality, aren't all three worshiping the same deity?

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No. For example, the Jews worship an angry, crazed killer while the Christians worship a manic-depressive lunatic.

Eric,

Yes...theoretically. And I agree with how you have characterized the individual descriptions of same.

Nox

There is a link in all religions...Monotheistic ones are just blown up cults that ignore all the other divine aspects of paganims. They concentrate on one god, and one gods properties and contributions, ya know what I mean? There is no war, hate, power, government, seas, fertility, etc, in the christian god, or Jewish god, or Muslim god, because they have looked at one aspect of a pantheon and worshipped it alone.

And there are a lot of connections between all Indo-European gods.

Christianity believes in the Rapture anyway. No one is in Hell yet, they are just waiting to be judged at the end of days. God will come down, and everyone will be resurrected, and shown the true nature of God and Christ, and will make a choice to follow him and his creed to heaven, or renounce it and follow satan into Hell. Thats what the bible thumpers tell me anyway.

I'm just confused at why 'GOD' would have waited so long and why he selected only a few to tell.
I'm not asking to be sarcastic, I haven't read the entire Bible, yet.

Bogey,

quote:

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Originally posted by Bogey Man:
I haven't read the entire Bible, yet.

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Read 3 chapters every day and 4 one day each week, you'll be finished in one year. But also by taking it slow you stand a good chance of remembering what you've read.

Why?

A. Because you will have no doubt about why you either do or don't believe in the religion presented.

B. You will never have to take someone's word about what is written and you'll readily pick up on when something is presented out of context (next best thing to a flagrant lie).

Nox

if there is a god, which i believe there is.

what you believe is irrelevant.

what you are told to believe is irrelevant.

if there was a strict code to follow he would tell each of us individually.

since he didn't i have to believe he left it up to man to choose for himself the best path that makes their life what they want their life to be.

everybody will believe what they want to believe,

even me.

even atheists.

IzzyLost/ReelingMind,

I am extremely curious about your god. In particular;

*How does he manifest himself to you (if at all)?
*Do you worship him?
*If so, how, and where do you worship?
*Does he expect worship?
*Does he have no other direct influence on us other than our creation?
*Is he also the god of nature (plants, animals, etc)?
*Is he responsible for the creation of the known universe?
*Can he transcend time, distance, matter, etc.?
*Will he manage the disposition of your soul upon your death?

The way I see it, God and religion is whatever you believe it to be, so that if you beleive that you've been a good christian/muslim/bouddhist/etc, when you will die, you will go to heaven/nirvana/etc. because that's what you think will happen.

Meaning that in my point of view, that pagan would ascend to his idea of the aftelife.

Would u belive\ feel God if no one ever TOLD you about his existence? i dont think so

If theres one thing I hate about religion it is that it has to be taught. If it was that damn important it would be an instinct, it would just be something that you know to be true without having anyone tell you about it or indoctrine you into their organization.

Dark,

I read this a few hours ago and my first impression was that you were totally correct.

quote:

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Originally posted by Dark_Magneto:
If theres one thing I hate about religion it is that it has to be taught. If it was that damn important it would be an instinct

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Now after thinking about it I have altered my thinking.

We (as animals) teach our young survival skills which is why they (our young) remain in our care so long. Our young do not have those "survival instincts" which all of us agree are not only important and necessary, but...vital.

Now to religion. If it (religious practices or lack thereof) were not taught, we would be as cavemen...fearing the unknown. Now whether that religious instruction is in the form of technology training, pure science, logic, religion, philosophy, et al...we need to teach it. Leaving it to instinct, in my opinion, leads to superstition, which leads to....

Nox

I am partially agreeing with Nox on this, except..

Some people didn't need to be told about gods or a god, they felt. That's where religions come from. Those who feel it, teach it.

Maybe if we weren't taught about it, some of us would feel it anyway.

But then I do agree with Nox' last sentence as well.

i thought i posted this already.

to answer your question user-x,

* no, if he does i haven't seen it, if he's told me i didn't believe him. i do believe he exists outside this universe and will not manifest himself within it. he'd have to break laws either created or initiated by himself.

breaking the rules of your own game is the ultimate in uncool.

* no.

* see above

* worship is a vain human emotion, plus it puts expectation on the worshipped that they may be unable or unwilling to do or live up to.

* no he has no direct influence on us. life is ours to live as we see fit, success or failure is on your shoulders, joy and sadness are your feelings not his.

* god simply is god, god simply is.

* the known universe is a microcosm in a much larger picture, if superstring theory is correct, he may not have created the "known universe", this still is however a result of his creation.

* to transcend time, distance, matter, etc; one must first be limited to time distance and matter. he exists outside of these things.

* no, he gave me free will, it is up to those i CHOOSE to live alongside to punish me for what they call against the law.

i've always said a good lawyer will either get you out of hell or indict god as an accomplice for allowing it to happen knowing it would happen and doing nothing.

king every culture that has ever existed shares the exact same common ground.

whether they believed in one god, many gods, or that they're god.

they all believed in one central deity that had power of everything, or that they were a part of that god who had power over everything.

i challenge you to show me one culture that hasn't.

dark_magneto, excellent point.

religion has to be taught, the idea of god though appears to be instinct.

"If it was that damn important it would be an instinct, it would just be something that you know to be true without having anyone tell you about it or indoctrine you into their organization."

the idea of god is, it seems, instinctual. the attributes attributed to god; however, are where the disparities begin.

nox i disagree.

let's look at cats as a perfect example.

you usually take them as kittens from the mother, the father usually takes no active role except to kill the weaker of the litter.

a kitten just weened off of mother's milk does not need to learn how to hunt or use the litter box.

instinct does not lead to superstition,

unknowing leads to superstition,

dogs on the other hand have to be totally trained, i think it was our domestication of them that made them stupid.

cats were revered as divinity in ancient egypt because when you live in a desert and grain is your main source of food, anything that keeps the mice out is a god-send.

as they believed, that cats were a gift from osiris, especially since their primary talents; that some say led to the flourishing of the egyptian people, did not have to be taught.

quote:

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Originally posted by Nox:
whether that religious instruction is in the form of technology training, pure science, logic, religion, philosophy, et al...we need to teach it. Leaving it to instinct, in my opinion, leads to superstition, which leads to....

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I agree with Izzy in that, the link between instinct and superstition is false. The only relationship between the two is fear - as a cause. Fear will feed the superstition and, in a separate process, fear can sharpen those instincts such as awareness of ones surroundings. Fear is not an instinct, it is a side-effect of intelligence. Therefore, since the roots of religion are fear, it is not instinctual, it just appears to be because it is automatic.

Also, to say that religious instruction can take the form of training in logic, is a contradiction.

quote:

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Originally posted by IzzyReele:
i thought i posted this already.

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You may have. I missed it. Besides, I had already surmised most of it by reading between the lines of your other posts. Thanks for taking the time to clarify though.

quote:

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breaking the rules of your own game is the ultimate in uncool.

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Exception - Monopoly and poker.

quote:

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god simply is god, god simply is.

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That was fairly lame, but I get it anyway.

quote:

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the known universe is a microcosm in a much larger picture, if superstring theory is correct, he may not have created the "known universe", this still is however a result of his creation.

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I agree that the universe is 'multi-layered' either spatially or dimensionally. A little bit of science, and the ability to entertain yourself with your imagination, can go a long way. But what if there are multiple gods? Each one would oversee a group of nearby dimensions, a 'regional manager' if you will?

quote:

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to transcend time, distance, matter, etc; one must first be limited to time distance and matter. he exists outside of these things.

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Thank you for pointing out my poor choice of transitive verb.

quote:

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no, he gave me free will, it is up to those i CHOOSE to live alongside to punish me for what they call against the law.

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Your neighbors will have disposition of your soul? Mine will only have to deal with my corpse. I hope I die naked.

no user-x, i thought i already posted the reply.

"Exception - Monopoly and poker."

make that strip poker with girls who don't know how to play and i agree.

"That was fairly lame, but I get it anyway"

yeah, that was lame, didn't know how else to put it though.

"Your neighbors will have disposition of your soul? Mine will only have to deal with my corpse. I hope I die naked."

you know why do people buy coffins and pay all this money ahead of time for their funerals?

it's not like the city is just going to let you lay around and stink.

You got me scratchin'. It's definitely a tradition that we brought with us from Europe. Other than that, I know nothing of it's origins.

I used to tell my family that my post-mortem wishes were to just call the county and have me picked up, but then I realized how silly even that was. I won't know, therefore I don't care.

quote:

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Originally posted by user X:
I won't know, therefore I don't care.

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Same thing goes for my views on god.

quote:

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Originally posted by user X:
Also, to say that religious instruction can take the form of training in logic, is a contradiction.

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I never said that either logic or the logic train would be good.

Nox