On another topic, Big Bang et al, I began with the premise that the Big Bang did occur. As of late, I've been obsessed with blue-shifted galaxies (galaxies moving towards us) and how we on earth can observe them (which we do).

My problem comes in that I didn't feel that we should see anything except red-shifted galaxies (galaxies moving away from us).

It then struck me that there should be no such thing as a quasar, because all galaxies should be at the edge of the ever expanding universe.

If there was the big bang...all the energy concentrated at a point the size of the head of a pin...a massive explosion (here's the rub)...the energy expanding outward...cooling...forming matter...etc.

To explain the universe as it is, some of this matter is moving slower than the rest. But in theory, How can this be? The initial bang set all the energy off with equal velocity for each quanta of energy (if not, no spherical universe). Mass has not yet formed, and space itself is being created by the expansion so there is no slowing mechanism.

Now for the question...How could the universe as it is observed be the result of a big bang?

Nox

read my post in the other one, answer this,

and the reason some stuff has the blue shift is that the universe is not flat, it is spherical, galaxies opposite us are shown to be moving twice as fast,

the universe is not a perfect sphere or galaxies couldn't form,

a blue shifted galaxy is the result of shall we say optical illusion for lack of a better term,

on the imperfections gravity is stronger toward the center of the clusters than on the outside so these galaxies on the rim are moving faster than the ones "centralized", but because the gravity is pulling us in towards the centralized ones as they are moving out from expansion, the "appear" to moving towards us.

it explains this in that site, i equate bogey's site to the same people who say we didn't land on the moon because you can see stars in the daylight,

we could to if we didn't have an atmosphere.

they also quote multiple light sources because of different angles of shadows from different sources, not realizing multiple light sources would provide multiple shadows which they don't, the angle is different because of the same effect,

they are not standing on level ground.

this type of effect can be seen quite easily in new brunswick canada at a site called magnetic mountain,

you drive to the base of the mountain put your car in neutral and coast up the hill.

no matter how you look at it you are going up hill.

but because of the curve of the earth you are actually going downhill pulled toward the center of the earth despite being able to stand at the base look up the mountain into the sky.

it is an optical illusion and defies no laws of physics,

as blue shifted galaxies do not defy the laws of an expanding universe.

Here's an amateurish guess:

Aren't galaxies caught in the pull of singularities or black holes? And if so, then wouldn't it still be possible for all the galaxies to be traveling outward from a single point (big bang ground zero) and at the same time, individual galactic groups of stars moving in differing directions relative to each other?

Like the scrambler at the carnival. Each group of cars spins independently. If we look over at the other group, it appears that it's car is approaching our car while at the same time, we are receeding from the cars in another group. Yet all the groups collectively progress in the same direction.

Where do they get this measurement of "all the energy concentrated at a point the size of the head of a pin", What makes it that specific size and not, say the size of a fist?

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Originally posted by IzzyReele:
and the reason some stuff has the blue shift is that the universe is not flat, it is spherical, galaxies opposite us are shown to be moving twice as fast,

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Yes, and that makes the RED shift twice as much, because they are moving away from us.

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Originally posted by IzzyReele:
the universe is not a perfect sphere

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Yes, but it should be.

quote:

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Originally posted by IzzyReele:
a blue shifted galaxy is the result of shall we say optical illusion for lack of a better term,

on the imperfections gravity is stronger toward the center of the clusters than on the outside so these galaxies on the rim are moving faster than the ones "centralized", but because the gravity is pulling us in towards the centralized ones as they are moving out from expansion, the "appear" to moving towards us.

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And that is precisely one of my problems with the big bang...why do we have galaxies with different velocities, when the intial blast sent energy (which later formed mass) out at the same velocity?

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Originally posted by IzzyReele:
this type of effect can be seen quite easily in new brunswick canada at a site called magnetic mountain,

you drive to the base of the mountain put your car in neutral and coast up the hill.

no matter how you look at it you are going up hill.

but because of the curve of the earth you are actually going downhill pulled toward the center of the earth despite being able to stand at the base look up the mountain into the sky.

it is an optical illusion and defies no laws of physics,

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Haven't been there but sounds like a worthwhile trip.

Nox

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Originally posted by user X:
Aren't galaxies caught in the pull of singularities or black holes?

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Yes, and that will be a future topic because of the amount of time required for a galaxy to complete one revolution versus the age of the universe.

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Originally posted by user X:
then wouldn't it still be possible for all the galaxies to be traveling outward from a single point (big bang ground zero) and at the same time, individual galactic groups of stars moving in differing directions relative to each other?

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Yes, but only if all the galaxies in the universe were rotating about the point you called "big bang ground zero" but they're not.

Nox

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Originally posted by Dark_Magneto:
Where do they get this measurement of "all the energy concentrated at a point the size of the head of a pin", What makes it that specific size and not, say the size of a fist?

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I couldn't agree with you more. I have read that pin head bit for years. However, because we a dealing with energy which has not yet become mass, I think the question of volume is irrelevant or at least undefinable. However, what I feel is significant is, that this glob is without lumps. That is what makes the bang crutial...energy is distributed spherically and evenly. Later the energy becomes mass, and the mass lumps (in reality). But why?

There must be some mechanism (force if you will) that causes the energy to collect in globs/lumps/masses/whatever noun you prefer.

Gravity isn't the answer, because the energy is evenly distributed at this point. Gravity comes later.

Nox

i recommend you purchase the dvd collection of stephen hawkings universe,

it explains in laymen's terms with full motion graphics how energy distributed evenly with the use of gravity combined to form matter which caused the imperfections in the universe which allowed stars to form and galaxies to accumulate.

and it is quite a worthwhile trip, there are all kinds of "unnatural" occurrences that take place in that area,

there is also, i can't remember the name of it, upside down water falls or something like that,

that because of the earth not being a perfect sphere creates another optical illusion where whirlpools form every 2 to 3 minutes but rotate the way they do in the southern hemisphere, supposedly impossible in the northern hemisphere.

which it is, but because of the optical illusion that occurs because of imperfectly shaped sphere it "appears" to rotate counter-clockwise.

you see even though you look down at the water to see this, you are actually looking up at the water because of the curvature of the earth which produces a mirror image effect.

"And that is precisely one of my problems with the big bang...why do we have galaxies with different velocities, when the intial blast sent energy (which later formed mass) out at the same velocity?"

What about acceleration? What about mass bumping into other masses?

I am having a hard time picturing this coasting uphillmagnetic mountain and backwards waterfalls in my mind. I mean, I can picture it, but I can't picture how you could set it up to look that way without breaking physics.

Dark,

I looked it up, it's Magnetic Hill, Muncton, New Brunswick. Appears to be a tourist draw to the area, so must be something to it. Call it up and read about it.

Nox

thanks nox,

i don't for some reason it never crossed my mind to look it up on the net.
http://w3.execnet.com/lrs/novascotia/MagneticHill/MagneticHill.htm

there's a site that gives a good picture of it.

and the following site explains the "illusion" behind it and for the backwards waterfalls.
http://hepweb.rl.ac.uk/ppuk/PhysFAQ/roll-uphill.html

soul,

I got distracted (obviously) and now I'll get back to the topic.

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Originally posted by soullace:
What about acceleration? What about mass bumping into other masses?

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I had thought about that situation. Here are the two situations that came to mind.

A. Galaxies colliding and causing a ricochet. We already have photos of galaxies colliding and it appears that they pass through each other. Granted there are individual collisions, but they pass through (albeit a little worse for ware). When you think that Earth's nearest neighbor (Alpha Centauri) is ~26 billion miles away, there's a lot of room for stars to pass.

*Nox wants world to put on hip boots*

B. Now we have a galaxy bounce off the edge (limit of universal expansion) and come back at us.

By the way, thanks for that link with the pictures of Muncton. I had thought about driving up in a couple weeks to see it, but the pictures showed what I wanted to see, so you saved me a trip...Thanks!

Nox

What about acceleration? This is an increase or a decrease(decceleration = -acceleration) in velocity. What if the big band caused a blast that accelerated the particles at different values? Also could the fact galaxies pass by each other or through each other still influence the acceleration of the galaxy as a whole? And therefore speed it up or slow it down. Then there is that optical illusion issue as well. Light bends around gravity, this can give the appearsnce of something coming towards us when it is really going away.

As you can see i only pose more questions and theory. But they could well be plausible explainations.

Soul,

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Originally posted by soullace:
What if the big band caused a blast that accelerated the particles at different values?

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The scientists tell us that it took 100,000 years for the temperature to cool enough for particles to form. The acceleration was already there.

Nox

"The scientists tell us that it took 100,000 years for the temperature to cool enough for particles to form. The acceleration was already there."

Please make since :]

Soul,

Having trouble with my server, so this has taken a while to get back.

All of the energy which formed the particles had the same initial velocity. Hence, when the particles formed, they too had that velocity.

Nox

but the particles formed from energy,

the only way for velocity to remain constant now is for all the energy to turn into particles, which would be an instant collapse or none of the energy to turn into particles, in which case we wouldn't be here either.

that which turned into particles clumped together and entropy began and also the distinct pointing of the arrow of time.

the beginning of disorder.

from within perfection itself came the chaos, the only thing that could make life possible,

isn't chaos perfect then itself?

you can't tell me there's no god.

it also answers the question of why a perfect being would create an imperfect being.

it's natural, and not so imperfect when taken in perspective.

Izzy,

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Originally posted by IzzyReele:
you can't tell me there's no god.

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I hope the "you" that you are talking about is the generic "you" and not Nox who happens to believe in "that which is greater than man" (aka a theist).

Nox