I found your response to Spirit's comment on the Big Bang interesting (in the faith and faithlessness topic), espcially because I am a believer in the Big Bang.

My question is this, If not the Big Bang, then what?

Nox

G
O
D

I wasn't saying I was a person to argue against the Big Bang, I was saying there were people in this forum that argue against it.
But I can't say that I do argue for it since I don't understand it fully, and there are a lot of holes in the theory.

But if I wanted to get all philosophical I could say that since time is not real then the universe always is and always will be, so nothing created it, but there are different points in the history of the universe that major changes have occured and will occur. This goes with J0's theory where we could say that the Big bang was not the creator but a simple point in time where the universe recycled itself, and the crunch is not the end, just another point in time where the universe recollected itself, waiting to be recycled again. And since we're saying time does not exist, then this is just an infinite loop where everything that has happened will happen again, forever.

[This message has been edited by Bogey Man (edited 05-26-2002).]

I like your thoughts. That's pretty much exactly what I think.

Bogey,

I totally agree. One of the biggest holes in the theory is the fact that we can observe blue-shifted galaxies.

I asked the question to see if you had an alternate theory.

quote:

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Originally posted by Bogey Man:

But I can't say that I do argue for it since I don't understand it fully, and there are a lot of holes in the theory.

[This message has been edited by Bogey Man (edited 05-26-2002).]

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King,

Who is to say that the Big Bang isn't the way that "GOD" created the Universe. After all, isn't "GOD" omnipotent and work in strange and mysterious ways?

Nox

The theory of Big Bang is not at all that great. There are many things we can't yet explain, in gravity for example. We don't know how matter behaves in really near a point of high gravity. Another example is, that we have observed that galaxies move further away from each other with increasing speed. Anyways the big bang is the best explanation we have.. I don't know if we have other scientific ones.

Nox, can you tell me more about those blue shifted galaxies?

umm,

the big bang has been proven, it is not a theory.

the static on your television and am radio is the result of the microwave radiation left over from the big bang.

this was in the early 90's, the headline on every report was a quote from the scientist at the press conference where the big bang was confirmed,

he started off the press conference by saying "i have heard the voice of god".

hubble showed the universe as expanding.

einstein disregarded the possibility of singularities saying something in nature would prevent it.

a catholic priest/scientist at the vatican confirmed the singularity possibility in general relativity, and theorized that the universe may have started from just such a singularity and coined the term big bang.

hawking used the general relativity singularity possibility and the expansion of the universe to prove the existance of black holes and earn his phd.

hawkings work made the big bang the most credible and scientifically accepted theory at the time.

in the late 80's a satellite was launched and photographs of cosmic radiation taken which provided us with an account of the history of the universe back to 100 seconds after the big bang.

the scientists who proved it were just searching radio signals from space, they kept receiving this static interference no matter which direction they aimed the dish and always at the same intensity.

they eliminated the earth as the source, and the fact it was the same intensity in every direction, and the result of a tremendous release of energy,
and hubbles proof of a universe expanding,
to go with hawkings proof that singularities existed,

the big bang went from theory to fact.

i am interested though in those blue shift galaxies, i've never heard of that.

Sam,

Other than stating that I have read multiple times that scientists have observed them, no. That is why I have asked. I have pondered the question of why we on earth can observe a blue-shifted galaxy and my conclusion is that we cannot...if the big bang happened. However, there is something telling me that I'm overlooking something which is why I keep asking the question. As yet, I have not gotten an answer. Do you have any ideas?

Nox

http://www.angelfire.com/az/BIGBANGisWRONG/index.html

There still are a lot of holes in the theory

Bogey,

I do not know how to thank you for the link other than a great big THANK YOU!

This will keep me busy for hours. Don't know how you found it but it's GREAT.

Nox

Here is a possibility Nox...

A blue shift is an object coming towards another object. Since the universe is always expanding (according to the big bang theory), this gives the only possibility. That the galaxy is going faster but only a little faster and just hasn't passed us yet. We just had a head start.

Okay,

Why would we have had a head start? That would not have been much of a bang, just one humongous fizzel.

Nox

you know i have trouble subscribing to the scientific accuracy of sites that start with angelfire.

plus,

these people have found holes in another "theory"....
http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm

but i find this evidence to be a little more credible.
http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_uni/uni_101bbtest3.html

or...
http://cosmology.berkeley.edu/Education/IUP/Big_Bang_Primer.html

and i guess i was wrong, i had heard somewhere that it was proven.

but both links i posted mentioned the theories shortcomings

and i'm sorry bogeyman but that guy doesn't even know what a quasar is.
http://chandra.harvard.edu/xray_sources/quasars.html

"The power of a quasar depends on the mass of its central supermassive black hole and the rate at which it swallows matter. Almost all galaxies, including our own, are thought to contain supermassive black holes in their centers. Quasars represent extreme cases where large quantities of gas are pouring into the black hole so rapidly that the energy output is a thousand times greater than the galaxy itself."

when looking for educational i tend to stick to educational or sites directly involved.

I quite can't trust that site either(http://www.angelfire.com/az/BIGBANGisWRONG/index.html). The layout doesn't somehow convince me. Reminds me some "scientific" site I found once. That was hilarious. Get this: "there are quantum spirals in 4th dimension that will guarantee us free energy for all eternity. All we are lacking is just good equipment to profit from them." the actual text on the site was longer.

Anyways, Big Bang is the most probable solution we have. Every single time I think of it I can't help myself asking the question "what was before?". If someone ever finds out, make sure he tells me.

Other interesting topics are the unsolved mysteries of modern science. All we need is a new Einstein...

ever look into superstring theory?
http://www.deoxy.org/h_kaku1.htm

this here gives you a bare bones approach to it.

if you find that interesting, proceed here the site of the actual co-founder of superstring theory.
http://www.mkaku.org/

he states that we stumbled onto superstring quite by accident, and the mathematics involved aren't even fully understandable yet, but it provides a great explanation for unifying gravity and quantum theory,

but because the mathematics isn't fully understood it lacks the ability to make predictions.

kaku who came up with the theory in the late 80's early 90's states that it's 21st century mathematics that fell into 20th century hands.

he's convinced when man's knowledge increases to understand the implications of superstring theory the universe will be at our doorstep and we'll have a simple explanation for everything from the creation of stars to somebody typing a response on a message board all in a formula as simplistic as e=mc2.

Well, actually as I got involved with this topic I also remembered the superstring theory. Once I found this link www.superstringtheory.com . That's very interesting. Hard to understand and so much information but still..

I just read some stuff about that Hawking's theory from the Kaku's site. Whoa that's heave. Quantum leaps and so.. Now THAT'S hard to understand.

I wasn't that convinced with the site either, but I did think some of the things mentioned were good reading, and made sense, even if I didnt know if any of them were fact

If

G
O
D

How did he come to be?

i gave the anwser that anyone else that was uncertain about something would have most likely to say...
if not the bing bang then what?
nothing

King,

Am I to understand you believe in the Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle to explain the origin of the universe?

Nox

the matrix is everywhere.....its all around us...... you can see it when you turn on your tv.....when you look out your window......when you pay your taxes......

[This message has been edited by Bliizzard (edited 06-03-2002).]