God never came donw from the sky and never told ppl all those storys,
so how did ppl write the ancient testament?

Some dumbass just wrote some dumb shit. End of fuckin story.

Yeaa why is there millions of other dumbases who belive those storys?

Because even more dumbassess told them to. And because they are scared they will fry in hell if they don't.

"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect."
-Mark Twain

A "God" aka "the Intellegent Design Theory" probably exists, but I don' think it is in the conventional Christian sense, I don't think anyone knows what it is to this day.

You don't look at Stonehenge or ancient Pyramids or an automobile and say it created itself through natural phenomenon, it's evident it was created by something. Now take a look at the universe, so much evidence of design, pattern, and consistency and people would much rather accept that it just "happened" rather than there being a driving force behind it. I just can't bring myself to believe that because it is illogical. Most likely someone or something of intellegence created life, the universe, and everything we just don't know what that was exactly.

"Now take a look at the universe, so much evidence of design, pattern"
maths is universal, and patterns are just an illusion. they hold no real meaning or significance except that which we alone place on them. it is just a fluke, or otherwise this god person put alot of effort into everything, from petals on flowers to snowflakes to the crystaline structure of salt and diamonds. if there was a god that put that type of effort into it, then this enviroment is so manfactured that there would be nothing wrong with it, and sinse this is obviously not the case.

I can't accept that a god just happened. But I can believe that the universe did not have a creator because I at least know that there is a universe. I can't know that there's a god. And I won't believe in an imaginary creature. What's real comes before the imaginary.

Whatever created the universe and life is God. If the universe spawned itself and life was a result of a bunch of random shit slamming and mixing into each other to make the first 1 celled organism that somehow became a multicellular organism despite the fact that it cannot gain any new genetic information through mutations or the like then the universe itself is God.

If our universe is an offshoot of another universe then the other universe is God. If aliens from another universe created this universe then those aliens are God. It all boils down to something in the beginning, and whatever it was, that is "God" by definition.

Hmm my favorite quote is by a man named Friedrich Nietzche; "Is Man a creation of God, or is God a creation of Man?" Which is almost the title of the topic. Neato!

I just simply don't see why the Christians think their religion is so correct. There are thousands of other religions across the world. What makes theirs right?
--The Bible you say Mr.Christian? It says so? Wow! Those thousands of other religions have books just like the bible too! And some of them are completely different!-- You've lived your life like a puss because of a kiddie tale! Seriously... it's so Santa Clausish... Just a story to try to keep people from causing trouble. Well, that's my opinion, i could be wrong.

Cheers of Atheism,
Deakon

[This message has been edited by Deakon (edited 05-16-2002).]

I really agree with what Dark_Magneto siad about definig what "God" really is. I mean, who the hell said that God was man or animal, or alive at all. Maybe God was an act or a something scientific . . . . how are any of us to really know? Who says the bible isn't a bunch of childern's stories someone made up to get their kids to go to sleep at night? Those who read and truly believe the bible may be right, but they also may be listening to second (or third or fourth . . . ) hand information that may or may not be true. I personally like to believe in what I can see and feel and touch and know. Those things, to me, are real.

Touchy-Feely is nice, what about the esoteric things (ideas among them) that are a part of life?

How about life itself? Can you touch life? ..........the list goes on.

Nox

I belive man created god. Lets imagine a situation in the stone age:

There is a tribe called "insert your favourite stone age tribe". In the tribe there is an old(can be somewhat young aswell) wise man, who doesn't like for example the way some other member of the tribe behaves. As said, this old (or somewhat young) man is wise, he knows how the members of the tribe are afraid when there is an earthquake or thunder or something like that. So he goes to the guy he doesn't like and says:"Do you know why there was thunder yesterday? No? The gods don't like the way you behave. That's a sin!". Now the old(or somewhat young) man has became a powerful member of the tribe(assuming the other people belive him because he explains things formerly unknown). Every time someone does something the old (well, you know what I'd write here, so I just let it be) man doesn't like -> a sin was commited. After the man dies, no one knows he was just telling his tales and whoa! we have a religion!

Religion = a tool for controlling peoples minds. Name a war where god wasn't included somehow, now there's a challenge (maybe some conflicts including communists?).

Personally, I find buddhism the most reasonable religion. Actually it wouldn't have a god, but a religion requires one, so Siddharta (or buddha) was rised to a god. Well, buddhism has it bad sides, so I prefer to be an atheist.

Oh, I forgot to mention, I don't care if you belive in something. Just don't use it as an excuse to do something.


[This message has been edited by Samuli (edited 05-19-2002).]

Sam..,

Interesting ideas.

In the topic, Explain grass, Empireblue brought up a concept that you might want to consider: non-deist versus atheist.

How would you apply the concept of non-deist to your philosophy?

Nox

Actually, the quote from Nietzsche is "Is man only god's mistake, or god only man's mistake?" It's from the chapter entitled "Maxims and Missles", of the book "Twilight of the Idols."

Nox, actually I must admit I've never heard the term non-deist, as hadn't Empireblue. Can you please be more precise?

actually budhhists do believe in a god,

they believe that man is god and that he has to realize it again. that god implanted himself in creation as man, the achievement of nirvana is reclaiming your god-state.
www.thereluctantmessenger.com

"I belive man created god."

the idea of a god is instilled in every one of us, or not every civilization the earth has ever known would have one.

there never was in the whole history of the world an atheistic culture that arose out of primitiveness.

man did not create god, but he did assign him qualities that had no justifiable basis.

Empire,

I falsely accused you of being the originator of the term non-theist. When I hurriedly checked the source, I saw the term in your post........sorry.

Sam,

Like you, I am devoid of a precise definition. However, just looking at the semantics of it, it appears that it (non-theist) comes extra close to describing what I used to call.."that which is greater than man".

I am assuming that the post that both Empire and I referred to was deleted by its' author. Pity! I would like to have persued the subject further.

Nox

quote:

---

Originally posted by lostmind:
man did not create god, but he did assign him qualities that had no justifiable basis.

---

That's a contradiction. Man did assign him qualities, ALL of his qualities including the assignment of responsibility for creating life or matter. Since god is unseen and unquantifiable, our entire knowledge of him is our CONCEPT of him. Every story and statue that has ever existed is our creation. Even a thought, whereby god is the hidden force behind the boundry of our knowledge in science. A god that in no way exemplifies any known religion yet can, or has, affected our existance. Even this god's qualities were asigned by us.

It doesn't matter if it's possible. Fuck possible. Is it probable?

Any concept of god, whether it is ultimately discoverable or not, is at this time, a fabrication of the human mind.

Man did create god.

any concept of god yes,

but not god.

"It doesn't matter if it's possible. Fuck possible. Is it probable?"

anything is probable.

the statistical probability of evolution occurring is considered a scientific impossibility,

yet...

"Man did assign him qualities, ALL of his qualities including the assignment of responsibility for creating life or matter."

isn't that what i said?

you know i'm not even going to explain myself anymore to you.

you're never going to understand until you eliminate the brainwashed and conditioned interpretation you have of god from your mind, which is exactly the point i was trying to say.

you assign qualities to me based on your intrpretation of what you know, does that mean you created me?

when all you know of me is a small fraction of what or who i am.

the god you keep referring to i don't believe in either,

i don't assign qualities to god, i have no idea what they are.

and just because i don't know the qualities of god, doesn't mean he doesn't exist.

i don't know the qualities of some old lady in moscow, does that mean moscow doesn't have any old ladies?

if i assume there to be an old lady in moscow and assign her characteristics that i think she would have, have i now created her?

you are never going to understand another's belief in god, no matter the contradiction their god has in comparison with the one you've been told about,

and other's will never understand your atheism when you keep referring it to a singular belief they might not share.

why do you think so many atheists use christianity as their context?

why do you think that always gets pointed out by non-christians?

be quiet soullace, i understand your atheism, and like i said i before e is still a generally accepted rule, despite it's many exceptions.



[This message has been edited by lostmind (edited 05-21-2002).]

quote:

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Originally posted by lostmind:
...anything is probable.

---

Damn! I new you going to use that against me.

quote:

---

"Man did assign him qualities, ALL of his qualities including the assignment of responsibility for creating life or matter."

isn't that what i said?

---

Yes. I just added the word 'ALL' to emphasize my point that man created god as a concept.

quote:

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you're never going to understand until you eliminate the brainwashed and conditioned interpretation you have of god from your mind, which is exactly the point i was trying to say.

---

*takes the gloves off*

I consider all the interpretations of god.

Even yours:

quote:

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i don't assign qualities to god, i have no idea what they are.

and just because i don't know the qualities of god, doesn't mean he doesn't exist.

---

...a god that you don't know a fucking thing about. Whats the point of that? Why even call it god? If I believed in your god, I would change his name to Marvin just to disassociate him from organized religion because he is so fucking obviously different from 'those gods'. You thought him up, you gave him his name, but you might not recognize him if he passed you on the street because you know nothing of him.

• The probability of your god's existance is 50/50.
  
• The probability of your god being knowable is astronomically high.
  

Those two facts (and I would be interested to know if you see them as fact) makes any serious thought about your god somewhat futile.

cc: Spirit of '22 (I would have said 'ditto' but you hear that all the time anyway don't you?)

"Why even call it god? If I believed in your god, I would change his name to Marvin just to disassociate him from organized religion because he is so fucking obviously different from 'those gods'."

should a color blind person rename the colors because they are so fucking obviously different from 'your colors'?

i use the term god, because the term god, the extreme literal definition of what a god is, is what i believe.

should a man accused of false crimes change his name because of the stigma that may be associated with it?

"You thought him up, you gave him his name, but you might not recognize him if he passed you on the street because you know nothing of him."

no i didn't think him up, i just believe with all i know that there should be.

i didn't give him his name, i didn't give him A name, i use common frame of reference so people can understand in a general sense what i am referring to.

and no i wouldn't know him if i seen him, if he introduced himself to me as god i would question the validity.

why is it necessary for god to introduce himself to me of all people.

perhaps we've all seen him and don't even know it.

perhaps god prefers anonymity.

perhaps god knows that man would ask him to do things for them.

what is the first request you would make of god? to make you rich? to keep your sick child from dying?

to eliminate those that would cause you harm?

maybe those that would cause you harm request that god eliminate you to prevent them from doing wrong?

a man who lost his job, or his wife, or his child may try and beat up god for allowing these things to happen.

where a rational man, or a rational god would say i did not make it happen, maybe you should've been a better employee, a better husband, or a better parent.

if i gave you everything you wanted, you would appreciate nothing you have, you would mourn nothing you lost, you would have no ambition nor any desire because you need only come to me.

"Those two facts (and I would be interested to know if you see them as fact) makes any serious thought about your god somewhat futile."

of course they're facts, and can be applied to anything.

the probability of anything existing is 50/50.

it either does or doesn't, will or won't, has or hasn't. that seems pretty 50/50 to me.

10 years before i was born the probability of my existing was 50/50.

the probability of everybody knowing who i am is astronomically high in and of itself.

my desire to make myself knowable to everybody directly affects the probability.

and at that user-x, i believe our discrepancies have ended.

i am not trying to get you to believe in god,

just to not state your belief in his non-existance as fact.

"The probability of your god's existance is 50/50."

"Those two facts (and I would be interested to know if you see them as fact)"

and with those two statements you have. because you have acknowledged the possibility of god's existance as a fact.

i now consider you an intelligent atheist like soullace.

most atheists don't spout the absurdly obvious as you just have,

they just revert back to religious dogma treated as truth that is absolutely incorrect and not even arguable which is why they use it as the only basis for their argument, because they would rather consider you a fool than to think that just maybe they are mistaken.

I see this discussion is going to that direction where it's just better to be quiet and let the ones with "the one and only right opinion" rant and rave..

I Think that god was created By men in order to prevent others from thinking another way that they want, also i think that the comandments were made in order to insure a law. and the only way to scare them is to say that they will go to hell. So one who belives in heaven should also belive in hell. many cristians don't. The way i see it god is what you do good, And Satan is represented by evil acts. So if you do something good you represnet god, evil, the devil.
now i ask one thing, could you live in a world where everything would be good and there would be no evil? you can't can't you?
THen what will you do in heaven?
Best religion is worshiping the people you love, not an image that everyone wants you to belive in.

Sam,

Maybe you're right, but I find the thought processes/logic trains involved totally fascinating.

Nox

quote:

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Originally posted by lostmind:
should a man accused of false crimes change his name because of the stigma that may be associated with it?

---

No, but would you change your name to Adolf Hitler for $100?

quote:

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perhaps god prefers anonymity.

---

I would too if I were responsible for this mess.

quote:

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i now consider you an intelligent atheist like soullace.

---

*feeling the blessing wash over him*

quote:

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most atheists don't spout the absurdly obvious as you just have...

---

Wait! I don't know soullace. Did you compare me to an idiot?

I agree that we're square. Good posts.

soullace an idiot?

hell no, he's an atheist, we've had some pretty intriguing conversations, and i can't argue his perspective on the issue.

we discussed our beliefs one time at length, based purely on science, no religious rhetoric at all.

i've got a lot of respect for him, despite the fact we barely ever agree.

Oh, I forgot to mention that god has also been used to explain something they couldn't explain back then. For example the myth of the creation of the world. Every religion has one, but none (as far as I know) has estimated the age of the world as old as our science today. With science we have counted the age by the radiation and divination (I don't know the right word) of a certain atom, which, I doupt lies. Well, there's always the "what if", like what if the god created those to test our faith or such. Then again you could disagree in 10^20 different ways.

You could just say if god created earth, then what created god?

"Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel."

"Gods are fragile things; they may be killed by a whiff of science or a dose of common sense."

"The beauty of religious mania is that it has the power to explain everything. Once God (or Satan) is accepted as the first cause of everything which happens in the mortal world, nothing is left to chance...logic can be happily tossed out the window."