why does it say "in god we trust" on our money, when were supposed to have a seperation of church and state?

" For the same reason that the United States is "one nation under god" in the pledge of aledgence.

"Its use is of a patriotic or ceremonial character and bears no true resemblance to a governmental sponsorship of religious exercise." "

Saying "In God We Trust" is not violating the First Amendments prohibition of the establishment of an official religion. There is nothing legally barring you from reading that and saying, "I dont." That was the point of the prohibition of an official religion, not to wipe clean any mention of God by the government.

But it must be cool to listen to a punk album then think you know everything.

seperation of church and state is widely misunderstood,

many people interpret it too mean that god should be banished from governmnet institutions,

what it really reflects is that religion should not influence government policy, as it did in the european nations we came from, where the pope was pretty much the ruler over any king.

it's not a seperation of god and state, it's a seperation of church and state,

as many of our founding fathers were deists, they realized that god and religion have very little in common.

god can exist despite religion, religion needs god to exist.

quote:

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Originally posted by lostmind:

religion needs god to exist.

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Your overall point is correct. However, there are those who would argue that communism was a religion because it had a doctrine and dogma.

Nox

quote:

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Originally posted by d0m:
why does it say "in god we trust" on our money...

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The government put it there to make you feel better because they knew that they couldn't be trusted for shit.

Although I thank god that I live in a culture of separation, I can't help but think that the religious are less passionate about their faith. As opposed to a non-separatist culture were 'mans law' is the same as 'gods law'.

I think god can exist without religion and I also think religion can exist without god. There are religions that exist without any god(s). Even if there was only two like that it still counts.

Fred, that's the second time I have heard someone say that. Could you please enlighten me as to which religions you are refering to?

Satanism
Buddhism
Confucianism

Satan is the god equivalent. He serves the same purpose as god in that he gives his followers the security that they can't get for themselves in reality.

No. Satanism doesn't worship or believe in a deity called Satan. It's not simple devil worship. Satan is just an archetype in Satanism. But if you don't wanna consider that a godless religion, whatever then.

quote:

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Originally posted by Fred Madison:
...Satan is just an archetype in Satanism...

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Substitute the word god and it's equally true.

They don't believe in a literal deity called Satan. They don't worship one. Satan would basically be the Nine Satanic Statements. Nine things Satanists believe in.

Like the ten commandments?

No, not like the ten commandments. Not the same thing. The Ten Commandments don't equal Jesus Christ or God. But Satan pretty much equals the Nine Satanic Statements. Satan is those statements.

Alright. I read the nine statements (pretty lame). I'll concede. But I still see some iconic similarities to god and theism.

If Satanism could be defined as living by the Nine Satanic Statements. Then it could not accurately be called a religion. As defined by the Websters Dictionary, religion is; any system of faith and worship. So if their is no diety to worship it can't be a religion. Philosophy is defined as; originally, any branch of investigation of natural phenomena; now, the study of beliefs regarding God, existence, conduct, etc. and of man's relation with the universe.
The three 'religions' you named above were not created as religions but philosophies. Then again I haven't studied much Satanism.

Well going by that definition they aren't religions. The dictionary you're using is just called the Webster's Dictionary? I'm using the "Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary". This dictionary has 8 or 9 definitions for religion.

The first definition down the list explains a lot. Satanism doesn't go along with totally everything this definition is talking about. Now here is the part of it that it does.

"as well as the idea that ritual, prayer, spiritual exercises, certain principles of everyday conduct, etc., are expedient, due, or spiritually rewarding, or arise naturally out of an inner need as a human response to the belief in such a being, principle, etc."

The next definition they have listed is the one I use in my mind all the time.

"a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects."

So going with the other definition there I'd stil say all three are religions. It depends on what definition you use.

But Monky, IF you were to agree that they do count as religions would you also agree that they are godless?

Very good question. For an entirely truthful answer I would have to study more Satanism and more Confucianism, but here it is anyway.
My first answer would be yes, because these religions/philosophies do not point to a specific being and call it God. But my second answer would be no, because I think each of these systems, when followed, show that each and every-thing is 'god'. This could bring us into some deep disscussions, but I think it is going to depend on our own definition of "God".

My definition was taken from the, Webster's Encyclopedia of Dictionaries, New American Edition. I did only give the last part of the definition because I felt it was the most...open.


[This message has been edited by CuriousMonky (edited 05-10-2002).]

>>>>If Satanism could be defined as living by the Nine Satanic Statements. Then it could not accurately be called a religion. As defined by the Websters Dictionary, religion is; any system of faith and worship. <<<<<

Real satanism is a belief in a deity named Satan. Thats why its called Satanism. LaVeyan garbage is just atheism for people who had bad relationships with their dad.
However, even the LaVeyan garbage is a religion by your own definition. It is a system of faith and worship. Where in the definition does it say "of a god"? And furthermore, if you looked up the definition of a "god", youd find it to be anything that people put faith in or worship...therefore, the impression that you need an old man, or race of old men, in the skies or under the earth with supernatural powers to be a religion, you are wrong. By putting faith in cash and worshipping wealth, you are a member of a different religion with your own god. By being a LaVeyan dicksmack, you are putting faith in, (well, really weakness and envy) but on paper, yourself. Now you are a god. Every ideology is a religion.

Spirit,

Normally I think you're full of stuff that gives your that distinctive brown color, however, I do have to agree with your last statement:

Every ideology is a religion.

Nox

Worship is reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred. You can't really worship beliefs and philosophies. But I'd say you could say Satanists(LaVeyan) worship themselves. I'm gonna shoot myself now for generally agreeing with Defiant.

You can worship and pay homage to an ideal. Nationalism does. Communism does. Catharism does. Certain sects of ancient Christianity put their faith in love above Jesus. Gnosticism puts their faith in and worships sacred knowledge and learning.

I'm takin' my concession back now Fred.