Yeah, just recently I had a friend go to Florida on what he said at first were business confrences for his work.... turns out when he gets back that they were confrences of Scientology... I haven't heard a lot of good things about this religion, and I hear that basically it is a cult... Yet my boy thinks its an answer to all, so I was curious as to if anyone had any good arguments for me to bring up against him so as to show him that maybe this religion isn't as good as it seems.....

maybe it is as good as it seems.
have you looked into it?

what the fuck is it anyway ive never heard of it

quote:

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Originally posted by God81:
I hear that basically it is a cult... Yet my boy thinks its an answer to all, so I was curious as to if anyone had any good

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You wish to argue with him because you 'hear' bad things about it? I personally don't know what it is. But here is a little information...Falun Gong is known in China as a cult. To date the over 120 have died in police custody because they refuse to quit practicing Falun Gong. Basically it is just another form of Tai Chi or Chi Gong. Their are no religious beliefs attached to the system. It is offered in many countries throughout the world free of charge. If any wishes to learn it all they have to do is devote themselves to the practice. It is more a way of life than anything else. You follow one mans teachings, like Christianity, or Judaism does, but again unlike these religions their is no religious beliefs attached to it.
It actually turns out to be a pretty good form of physical, mental, emotional and spiritual exercise. And that is all it is presented as, a path to seek enlightenment, free of charge. Well not totally, he charges you with having to take self responsibility. Anyways, Christianity was considered a cult by the Greeks and so on when it first came to light. The reason for this is because it was different from what the majority of the population believed. If you want to learn about something, do some research and don't just base things on what you hear.

www.scientology.org

a glance at that home page suggested they are a bunch of cranks. But then it might tell other people other things.

The Gospel According to Nox (Vol.....yes).

Edgar Cayce started this. He put out multiple books. He was a seer and some of his prophecies are interesting. A big following.

Nox

I scientology is a pretty good religion; I read the book when I was ten, I didn't find anything 'wrong' with it. John Trevolta is a scientologist... What exacly have you 'heard' about it that would indicate that it's 'wrong'?

I know a lawyer who had to attend a hearing to do with the church of scientology, he and a few others had the job of obtaining information about the practices of the C.ofS. they had a lot of information that the general public will not see and from this they drew part of the case. He is a very open-minded, inteligent and kind man but now he absolutely dispises the C.S. I'm not sure of the outcome of the hearing (he's not allowed to mention details from it, and wont, which I think adds to his credibility) but from his piont of view (he has had a lot of work to do with mental inless and related aspects) the practices that these guys proform were basicly brainwashing techniques elegently disguised as meditation, I know that everyone has to make up there own mind, but this feuled by the rest I've read about scientology was enough for me,
--------------
Fuck L.Ron.Hubburd and Fuck all his Clones - From a very trusted resourse

Scientology is in no relation to christian Science, just so you know. Scientology is basically believing the scientific reasons for the happenings of the bible. Me, I figure that it's bullshit, and stick with the higher power.

PS. If you're a scientologist, then fine and dandy. There's nothing particularly WRONG with it, it's just a matter of opinion. also, EVERY religion is technically a cult. even Christianity, which no-doubt most of you believe, is a cult. Atheism is a kind of cult, I guess...


Ciao, TR

quote:

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Originally posted by evolove:

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Fuck L.Ron.Hubburd and Fuck all his Clones - From Maynard

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word!

quote:

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Originally posted by CuriousMonky:
You wish to argue with him because you 'hear' bad things about it? I personally don't know what it is. But here is a little information...Falun Gong is known in China as a cult. To date the over 120 have died in police custody because they refuse to quit practicing Falun Gong. Basically it is just another form of Tai Chi or Chi Gong. Their are no religious beliefs attached to the system. It is offered in many countries throughout the world free of charge. If any wishes to learn it all they have to do is devote themselves to the practice. It is more a way of life than anything else. You follow one mans teachings, like Christianity, or Judaism does, but again unlike these religions their is no religious beliefs attached to it.
It actually turns out to be a pretty good form of physical, mental, emotional and spiritual exercise. And that is all it is presented as, a path to seek enlightenment, free of charge. Well not totally, he charges you with having to take self responsibility. Anyways, Christianity was considered a cult by the Greeks and so on when it first came to light. The reason for this is because it was different from what the majority of the population believed. If you want to learn about something, do some research and don't just base things on what you hear.

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Duh, thats what he is doing...
he wants to know what people think of scientology and some point he could perhaps bring up to bring his friend down to earth and give him a few ideas about it that they would not have presented at the conferences...

Saying its a cult doesnt neceserily mean its bad, but cults are notorious for brainwashing, or stronly planting ideas in the heads of people...
Try to actually help people instead of lecture them in a vain attempt to look more intelligent

evolove,

Thank you for being kind about my brainfart, falsely accusing Cayce for scientology.

I owe you one.

Nox

L. Ron Hubbard, the great founder of Scientology, was a con-man and a thief. Albeit a very smart con man and thief. He used to hang out with science fiction writers and do a little writing himself. He then hooked up with Jack Parsons and took him and his wife for a ride and learned the tricks of the OTO. Suddenly, he has a religion-which sounds like about every other religion with some great sci-fi thrown in. But it is a religion in which to obtain status you gotta pay-and pay big. Ask your friend how much auditing costs. Tell him I will do it from home for $300.00 less and since it is bullshit anyway I must charge tax. Believe in nothing!

Dopester-Daze, for some reason you seem to have a problem with my thinking that I don't understand.

quote:

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Originally posted by DoPesTeR-DaZe:

Duh, thats what he is doing...
he wants to know what people think of scientology and some point he could perhaps bring up to bring his friend down to earth and give him a few ideas about it that they would not have presented at the conferences...

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Umm...No. He was not looking to get a full spectrum of information.

Posted by God81:
"so I was curious as to if anyone had any good arguments for me to bring up against him"

quote:

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Originally posted by DoPesTeR-DaZe:

Saying its a cult doesnt neceserily mean its bad, but cults are notorious for brainwashing, or stronly planting ideas in the heads of people...
Try to actually help people instead of lecture them in a vain attempt to look more intelligent

---

Gee, what was that last sentence again?

And what was the deal in the post where you made some ridiculous comment about never seeing a newbie welcome another newbie before, when I choose to welcome someone to Totse? If I am a newbie to you just because you've been registered longer or some such bullshit, then you are surely a newbie to someone else. Or is their some unposted number that makes someone a non-newbie?

Well of course I only want arguments against the religion, I mean what would be the point in just getting arguments for the religion??

That would not make for good debate would it??

And when I said "hear" I don't mean literally "hear" replace that word with research, because I have done some research but in a quest for more info on the subject I posted here to see what everyones thoughts on the matter were.

Not good enough! Dont you know youre only allowed to pass judgement on Christianity? Every other religion is a valid and wonderful choice, opposed only by the ignorant.

hahahha

<sarcasm>
Finally spirit you understand.
</sarcasm>

www.xenu.net

Lot of info on CoS

J.C.

[This message has been edited by J.C. Stanton (edited 05-02-2002).]

In regard to Scientology, it is a cult, a religion, a philosophical system. The same can be said of a rock band, one of my favs, Tool. However, they don't recruit like the scientologists
In regard to curiosmonkey, dopestardaze is good for quoting prior posts and dissecting them. Perhaps this is just to challenge the newbies but I find your logic flawed as curiousmonkey pointed out. Do you dislike L Ron Hubbard because Maynard told you to or have you done even a smidgen of research. The OTO, A.A. or even some chaos groups could be considered cults. Why do you think the OTO hates L Ron Hubbard, because he took off with what he learned from Parsons and perverted it. Did A. Crowley and Jack Parsons not have, by definition, a cult or following. Maynard claims to be a ceremonial magician-where do you think he has taken some inspiration from. Just go to one of the concerts and it is obvious.
Why disclose evolove's fuck L Ron Hubbard..." from a very trusted source." Any tool fan knows the line and who wrote it. Ahh, you have hidden knowledge.
The whole newbie thing is a bunch of shit to control your and others position in a virtual society. Since you feel the need to either post good topics at times or bash newbies-can you take it as well as you dish it. I guess this means no aborigine dream defense mechanisms as you appear to be caught up in your own ego like the great L Ron. Prove me wrong. And yes, use a big section of this post to quote me and note any grammatical mistakes. Even better, critically look at the Zoloft posts and see if you can point out your own contradictions in what you said. I fuck up but at least I can admit it.

Dopestardaze, I hope no offense taken in the last post but simply wish to see if you will engage in an excersize of intellectual combat. Such things-no matter what the outcome-only seek to make all parties sharper and more rounded-unlike scientology? No harm no foul? Correct?
I think all things are a game to be mastered=so perhaps you will answer and we can advance thru this as part of the overall collective unconscious. Holy 666, I sorta sound like LRH but at least I offer a challenge and it is free

Curious monky, im not making a vain attempt to look intelligent i couldnt care less what most of you morons think of me, furthermore most of the people on this board have already formed an opinion on me, so what difference does it make if i make you look like a fool ?
I was simply trying to get you to see that this message board isnt about 'status' although there is some system of recognition.
You have many times posted soemthing to a user asking a question that didnt answer anything and abused them, this does not help.

belarion - we have established that CoS is a cult, youre bringing nothing new to this conversation.
Comparing it to tool is doing exactly the same thing i did when i wrote the wuote from maynard, so that people perhaps not so familiar with tool could find out something about them, also giving credit to what is not yours is important as anyone with an education will know.
You query whether ive done a smidgen of research about the CoS, i did not need to i already know a great deal about them.

As for all the cults you named i dont have any idea at all what you were trying to get at, make your arguments clear, so that when you are beaten it is obvious.

The zoloft posts, another perfext example of where you were very wrong and were forced to see that, thanks for bringing it up.

The whole newbie idea is based on the fact that newbie's do not know what a site, message board, or anything similar is all about when they first join, they are shown their ignorance if they choose to be belligerant.

No aborigine dream defense mechanisms?
What are you talking about ? do you even know anything about the dreamtime ?

intellectual combat?
lol, if this is intellectual combat you need some real stimulation, to me this is simply an annoyance i feel obliged to get rid of as quickly as posible.

Now reply with something vague and mysterious and watch yourself get burned.

I thought that last post would draw you out. As to show how a good chap like L Ron Hubbard would have reacted I thought your reaction would mirror how L Ron would deal with any criticism-exactly in the same manner you do. For example, with anger and pointing the finger at the other. You are very good at name calling-just like L Ron Hubbard. Burn me? please, come now.
Reagarding the Zoloft posts you stated in one of your first posts a recreational dosage would be between 300 and 400 mg and then note-after the Moderator stated Zoloft is garbage-in a response to one of my posts "why are you repeating posts that nearly everyone in this thread has agreed on." Well, if you were so "agreed" (on Zoloft being negative) why would you note a recreational dosage. Recreational-look it up in the dictionary. So as to not be too vague, by implying it has a recreational dosage you are implying there is some-key word, SOME- good to it. See the contradiction.
Second, if you don't care why the hell even bother responding? I think you burn yourself everytime you respond in the manner you do. As for the Aboriginal Dream Defense I am sure you know what I am talking about as I am sure I look at my posts to see who responds. But, mate, my face is not red as I reply to your thread or anybody else whom may disagree or challenge me. Sarcasm I will give a plenty, but if said person can't take it that is his/her problem.
Since you know so much about L Ron, perhaps this is where you learned to respond to critics.

quote:

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Originally posted by DoPesTeR-DaZe:
Curious monky, im not making a vain attempt to look intelligent i couldnt care less what most of you morons think of me, furthermore most of the people on this board have already formed an opinion on me, so what difference does it make if i make you look like a fool ?

---

Please.

quote:

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Originally posted by DoPesTeR-DaZe:

I was simply trying to get you to see that this message board isnt about 'status' although there is some system of recognition.

---

Where exactly did you try to show that?
Are you talking about your ealier post that was worth...crap? If so, you failed.

quote:

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Originally posted by DoPesTeR-DaZe:
You have many times posted soemthing to a user asking a question that didnt answer anything and abused them, this does not help.

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First, your earlier post helped no one and intended to abuse me. Second,
Show me. I think when you say abuse it MAY only be in reference to my comments towards two people, Spirit22 and perhaps someone else. I await your proof.

quote:

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Originally posted by DoPesTeR-DaZe:
The whole newbie idea is based on the fact that newbie's do not know what a site, message board, or anything similar is all about when they first join, they are shown their ignorance if they choose to be belligerant.

---

Uhhuh. So you called me a newbie with the intent of showing my ignorance for choosing to be belligerent by welcoming a newcomer to Totse. Yeah, that makes sense.
I don't need anyone to point out my ignorance. In fact when ever I do become aware of it, I ACTUALLY POINT IT OUT MY SELF. Just ask around. I'm am sure Nox will tell you that I have, if he happens to remember.

Now, just to recap, let's see if this makes sense....

quote:

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Originally posted by DoPesTeR-DaZe:
The whole newbie idea is based on the fact that newbie's do not know what a site, message board, or anything similar is all about when they first join, they are shown their ignorance if they choose to be belligerant.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by DoPesTeR-DaZe:
I was simply trying to get you to see that this message board isnt about 'status' although there is some system of recognition.

---

Yeah, sure it does.

P.S.
You are not the one that posted the quote from Tool, Evolve was. You just repeated what he said and cited Maynard instead of, 'From a very reliable source'. So quite trying to take credit for something you really didn't start.

quote:

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Originally posted by DoPesTeR-DaZe:
Comparing it to tool is doing exactly the same thing i did when i wrote the wuote from maynard,

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[This message has been edited by CuriousMonky (edited 05-05-2002).]

Curiosmonkey, don't you realize we and every one else who disagrees with L Ron, I meant Dopestardaze are already beaten and defeated. We must humble ourselves to his/her omnipotence. Get your fire retardent suit out quick, L Ron Daze is gonna burn us both.

If Curiousmonkey or I are soooo beaten why do we keep coming back for more? Obviously, we don't feel that way. You know nothing of me but presume you do and this is always an advantage. Just like L Ron, you may convince some if you bash others loud and long enough, but whenever I see you bash someone else they are usually the type one of a predatory poor ego structure would consider easy prey. Therefore, I usually skip any critique you offer beacuse it is usually something akin "to what the fuck are you talking about?" Like the bully in the school yard who is challenged and sees a threat to his status and subsequent "special status in your own mind," I think you may think twice or maybe a fifth time before doing it again because I am not some 12 year old nor is curiousmonkey. And yes, it may seem you are being teamed, but CM and I have disagreed before. But we are newbies who are capable of thought and are not afraid to defend ourselves against invalid tripe.

Thereby, no newbie or any other should be scared to interject sarcasm to one of your responses because it is obvious you have now been shown. Especially using such lame propaganda 101 techniques like declaring our alleged defeat or soon to be burning. Some of the questions you ask might be answered by the more intelligent should you be a little more open. Yes, I know what Dreamtime is and would have enjoyed an acrimony free discussion with you but you are simply too biased to discuss anything with. If you want to know what the A.A. or OTO is I am sure you have heard of Google and it is not my duty to explain it to you and if you can't see what I am alluding to go back to school and study logic.

In any case, we all win, because at least I made you think of a response.

As for the relativity to the post, your replies to critique are very L Ron. Now please call me more L Ron and answer in some vague and mysterious way (a parody on the way you replied) Dopestardaze and prepare to be burned. As a caveat, I am being very L Ron in this post also. (I am trying to be vague and mysterious)

[This message has been edited by belarion23 (edited 05-05-2002).]

The fact that you seem to know so much about L Ron suggests youre somewhat of a fan, that, or a liar.

Again you suprise me...
Tou're THAT conformist that you followed what i asked you to do, i'm not goint to bother reading your posts, because im certain that like the other ones in this thread (and other threads) it will amount o absolutely nothing but propaganda and babble.

Curious monky, you arnt even bright enough to realise what the line of argument that you or your friend were pursuing, perhaps i expected too much of someone who can't even spell 'monkey.'

No, I am not a fan of L Ron Hubbard. If you knew anything about scientology you would be able to see this just by looking at my user name. CM and I are not friends but are just simply individuals who can talk to one another and disagree and agree without calling each other names like children on the playground.

What exactly did you ask me to do which made me such a conformist to your oh so clever invisible bait? I only pointed out your methods of discrediting others and used the Zoloft point as an illustration. This is called discussion. It is obvious in the Zoloft postings you are a conformist since when the moderator stated Zoloft was garbage you quickly changed your tune on the topic.
Propaganda? I do agree you are able to use, albeit simply, since your methods are always the same. //name calling, "you are brining nothing new to the conversation" (U use this especially when someone disagrees with you-see the Zoloft posts), and pulling yourself out of the discussion and declaring victory-ala The USA in Vietnam.
I am not going to engage in perfect grammar on a Message Board. Yes, there are grammatical errors in my post. But how can you state CM is an idiot? Read your last two posts. The last I heard the UK, USA and Australia all spoke English. Did you guys change over to something like Australian. Please let me know where I can pick up a translation dictionary. I think the majority of your spelling mistakes were due to the fact you were angry when you read my previous threads. I am aware Chaos practioners do this but you are just hard to follow unless it is more than one paragraph.
When it comes to intellectual combat, the fact you refuse to respond to anymore of my posts shows you are afraid to enter the ring because you know if you pull this propaganda shit with me I will kick your ass and show you the error of your thinking.
Unlike L Ron, I thought you may change your manner of personal attack but I guess I over-estimated you.
Now you have one of two options, attempt to kiss the moderators' asses so as to discredit myself and CM or stop bashing new posters simply because you don't agree with them or they challenge you.
I welcomed the challenge from you and attempted to facilitate several discussions with you which had no reason to become acrimonious. Like L Ron, you cannot tolerate criticism yet you can't have me excommunicated so I am sure there is frustration there.
PS: You know as well as I know you will read everyone of my posts. I know you will want to know what the "enemy" is up to so don't even make such a ludicrous statement.
How this relates to Scientology, if you challenge any one of their belief systems they will respond with propaganda, vitrol and putting the other in a position where they will always have to defend themselves against ridiculous accusations. DopestarHubbard, I suggest you listen to Tool's Eulogy (A Metaphor- since you are are not capable of abstract thinking)for it is your's in my book. Hey, in your Tool post you mispelled Aenima. Monky scmonkey.
God81,For more info on Scientology, check out Bare Faced Messiah. It is easy to find-probably at your local library.

quote:

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Originally posted by Township Rebellion:
Scientology is basically believing the scientific reasons for the happenings of the bible.

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You are misinformed.

Please read http://www.xenu.net for information about the brainwashing, money grubbing cult that is Scientology.

Here's something someone might enjoy.

Nearly 22 years ago, Lawrence Wollersheim, a disaffected member of the Church of Scientology, filed a lawsuit in Los Angeles accusing the church of mental abuse that pushed him to the brink of suicide. Teams of lawyers and various rulings came and went, all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court. Judgments against the church hit $30 million, then dropped to $2.5 million.

But the Church of Scientology never paid -- until yesterday, when officials wrote a check for more than $8.6 million to end the case, one of the longest-running in California history.

"They stalled it and stalled it and stalled it," said Wollersheim, 53, now of Nevada. He called his victory a landmark for former members of the church, which is known for heated and protracted legal battles.

"I'm smiling," he said. "It's like being the first plaintiff to get a victory against the cigarette companies."

Wollersheim, who ran a small photo business, joined Scientology in 1969 and later became a recruiter. He signed a "billion-year" contract to serve the church but says that he ended up being punished in a "thought reform gulag," consigned to the hold of a ship docked off California for 18 hours a day. The ship was part of a mini-navy assembled by L. Ron Hubbard, the science fiction writer who created the church in the early 1950s.

Because of Scientology practices, "Wollersheim's mental condition worsened to the point he actively contemplated suicide," a California appeals court said in 1989. "The church's conduct was manifestly outrageous."

Wollersheim,who suffered from a bipolar disorder, was forbidden to seek medical help under Scientology policies, he says. He quit the church after spending $150,000 on Hubbard's "mental health" regimes, and by 1980 had filed suit. In 1986, a jury awarded him $5 million in compensatory damages and $25 million to punish the church for what jurors called intentional and negligent "infliction of emotional distress."

The total was reduced on appeal to $2.5 million. But Scientology officials vowed they would pay "not one thin dime for Wollersheim," and members were rallied to chant that slogan at hearings.

Church attorney William Drescher yesterday blamed Wollersheim in part for the long delay in resolving the case. "From what I understand, Wollersheim didn't make any effort to collect [the judgment] for 11 years," he said.

But attorneys for Wollersheim said the church evaded payment by setting up corporate shells and employing endless hardball legal tactics, based on Hubbard policies that aim to ruin ex-members who sue the church. "Twenty-two years is extraordinary," attorney Ford Greene said.

As the battle went on, the $2.5 million judgment -- upheld in 1994 by the U.S. Supreme Court -- collected interest at the statutory 10 percent rate. Yesterday, as a Los Angeles Superior Court judge was set to begin yet another hearing, the Church of Scientology of California suddenly threw in the towel.

At 8:17 a.m., the church deposited $8,674,843 with the court clerk, ending the case.

Wollersheim said "significant amounts" of the judgment are owed to people who loaned him money on faith that he would eventually prevail. He also must pay off eight law firms that worked on contingency over the years.

But on FACTNet.org -- his Web site, which stands for Fight Against Coercive Tactics Network -- he issued a buoyant statement, gloating, "The cult that vowed it would never pay me one thin dime has now paid over 86 million thin dimes."

� 2002 The Washington Post Company

Nox