The main religions believe that God placed us upon earth because he/she/it loved us, Others placed us here solely to worship him/her/it, many other religions have different reasons most include worship or love.

My argument is this. If God is omnipotent(sp?) he/she/it will know exactly what each person he/she/it creates will turn out like. He/she/it knows, even if he/she/it gives us free will, exactly what every single person will do in his or her life.

This brings up the question, Why does God create people who are less then morally perfect?

Even if he/she/it has given us free will, he/she/it still knows exactly what is going to happen, so in essence he/she/it has created us for knowing full well that the person in question will go to hell, maybe forever.

This seems wrong. Although God may be above question, he/she/it is not above contemplation. If he/she/it created a person who was going to be sent to hell, then what was the point of creating that person? Hell is not a nice place, it is eternal punishment, since God knew that that was the destination of this person why did God create this person.

This fact either means God, by our ethical moral standards, is bad, or God does not care either way, I don't feel that I should worship him because of these facts. For this, assuming God exists, I will probably be sent to hell. This again raises the question of why did he create me. I will never love or worship him, I will go to hell, why did he condemn me to this?

Why does he/she/it choose to create people who will spend an eternity in hell even though he/she/it could just as easily have never created them?

*updated for Nox*

[This message has been edited by j0662 (edited 04-14-2002).]

Not a bad text, however, why is God...HE?

Nox

"God" may know what each person he created will turn out like, he gives us free-will so that each person may choose what to turn out like, he knows what every single person will do in that life because "God" is not seperate.

"God" creates people who are less than morally perfect so that "God" may BE every-thing.

Hell doesn't exist except were people make it exist.

God creates a person who is going to hell so that he can experience every-thing, because every-thing is balance.

You keep referring to Christian religion.
Maybe our standards are...off.

I think the only hell that exists' is the hell we make exist for us on earth and perhaps if we refuse to take in the truth upon death, we create another

Hell isn't necessarily a place of eternal punishment,in some religions eg Judaism its believed to be somewhere where the soul is "cleansed" until it is pure enough to be returned to God.So why create imperfect people destined for this?I do like that idea of balance actually.

Ok, take this to a lower level, why did God create a person who would experiance any bad things, such as suffering or mental anguish.

If these people could just have easily have not existed and therefore never have sufferd they would not miss the happy parts of life, would not have to suffer the bad parts.

What says that god would be the god of the christian bible and send people to hell?

To another lever then. All people experience these..experiences. Perhaps it is because of Karma, they need to have certain experiences because of things they need to learn in life, so that they may progress on a spiritual level. Their can be no gain without loss, and no loss without gain. If these people never existed then they would surely miss the happy parts of life.

God I love these posts!

Ooops.

Nox

quote:

---

Originally posted by j0662:
This fact either means God, by our ethical moral standards, is bad, or God does not care either way, I don't feel that I should worship him because of these facts
*updated for Nox*

[This message has been edited by j0662 (edited 04-14-2002).]

---

I'm going to try to take this from a christian stand point..sorry but just bare with me...
Ok god is omnipitent..this means he created his advasariy....satan was oncce an angel and turned against god...well if god created his enemy then he created evil..and good...god is both evil and good but he can't truley be this because the bible states that good is the infinite good or somethin' like it....so that means there is no god and if there's no god how can you worship him?

may luck find you,
majik

quote:

---

Originally posted by CuriousMonky:
If these people never existed then they would surely miss the happy parts of life.

---

No, because if they never existed, they would not be able to miss anything.

So, if you follow the logic, creation is evil, unless you ensure no creation is ever unhappy.

quote:

---

Originally posted by majik:

Ok god is omnipitent..this means he created his advasariy....satan was oncce an angel and turned against god...well if god created his enemy then he created evil..and good...god is both evil and good but he can't truley be this because the bible states that good is the infinite good
may luck find you,
majik

---

Perhaps Good and Evil are only concepts that man came up with. Perhaps good and evil are only two differents aspects of the same thing. Like a measurement. Meaning something man came up with to explain one thing, because the only way to talk about one thing is to compare it to another. Perhaps life and death are the same thing, a continious cycle/spiral, and man knows life but forgets death and therefore considers one good and one bad. Perhaps hell is only what is described in texts for those who believe it. I think when you die, you lose emotions and can only experience. what then is good and evil with no emotions to compare the two with.

"If these people never existed then they would surely miss the happy parts of life."
By Self.

quote:

---

Originally posted by j0662:
[B] No, because if they never existed, they would not be able to miss anything.[B]

---

Thank you for proving me right.

Your questions are based on the assumption that God is sitting in some corner of the universe thinking with a human brain. Perhaps the Higher Power doesn't express the human qualities of jealousy, emotions, ego, or contemplation?

I, personally, don't believe the Higher Power "wants" to be worshipped. Why would omnipotence have a self-confidence problem? I don't mind the idea of recognition and appreciation of the Higher Power as a way to stay connected to your spirituality. But the whole idea of being worshipped seems to be such a human ideal - not something that an omnipotent being would "need".

You asked why God would create someone knowing they would turn out "bad". If there were no bad people, how would we recognize good ones? If there were no hardships, how could we appreciate the good times? Good is relative to bad. You can't just "not make" evil. It's a consequence of having free will. I consider the Hitlers and bin Ladens of humanity to be gifts. How else would humankind be spurred towards growth? It takes a huge atrocity to get the population as a whole to communicate and change. It's rude to say, but not too far from the truth, that having Hitler on this earth has changed society for the better much more drastically than say, Mother Theresa. And I don't think Hitler is in Heaven OR Hell. I think he got an F on his report card and had to repeat the 4th grade.

Just my thoughts - but I'm a big dummy. Just ask Nox.

I am next to your thoughts.

quote:

---

Originally posted by BolognaBop:
I, personally, don't believe the Higher Power "wants" to be worshipped. Why would omnipotence have a self-confidence problem?

---

If s/he didn't want to be worshipped why is it a condition of Christain religion that you worship him/er to get into heaven. This says to me that the Christains God whether he's in there heads or in the sky is monsterously insecure.

I find the idea that our behaviour on Earth is some kind of extended test for some unproven eternity highly offensive. IMO this makes life rather pointless and on a par with school exams, i.e. not the meat of our lives, who the fuck thinks taking exams is the be all and end all.

A couple thoughts:

1. For those who might think bolognabop is a big dummy, I have a bridge.....

2. It's not just the Christian God that wants worship, almost all of the dieties in history want/demand it.

Nox

Who in thier right mind thinks that any religion and what it says is even 90% correct?

When religions are looked at as whole entities, you can see the things that are emphasized in each and which things are emphasized in how many religions. By this alone, you can find tiny bits of the truth. But to find more requires a more in depth search into these commonalities, what is said, how it is said and what it is(worship in this case)and how it is done, of each of these commonalities should be looked into for each specific religion and then related to other commons found in the same religion and others even ones long "dead," including philosophies and ancient mythology. When said object is looked at in this way and compared to the previously listed, one may come to conclusions which may or may not be the truth of the said object.
Then to assume further 'proof' of the truth in said commonality, it may be first accepted as possible truth, then lived by and experienced. This then can determine if the object is truth, for that person/people.

If God does not want worship why did he create man?

quote:

---

Originally posted by j0662:
If God does not want worship why did he create man?

---

Just for the hell of it.

Here are a couple thoughts:

1. In balognabop's other post, "I don't mind the idea of recognition and appreciation of the Higher Power as a way to stay connected to your spirituality."

2. What if that which is greater than man was sharing the fact of existence?

Nox

It's not that "God" needs love but it's a sighn of respect...ex. if you have ever truley loved anyone and didn't have the love returned...you probably felt great sadness or anger...god may be omnipitent....(when I say omnipitent I mean when he creates people they have the choices to either go towards god or not to...he is still omnipitent because he knows what the out come of either path is).... but he still has "feelings" in a sense...if you disagree some of you said that god creates us to experience..well feelings are an experience....so when we dont show respect to our creator he's angry sad or both....so it's all respect...god only punishes through the anger and sadness we cause when we disobey him....I'm catholic so I don't beleive in being afraid of God....just not to make him sad or angry....

nuts to ya,
majik

Nox, I like your #2.

Majik, I just don't see God being seperate from us. So it is quite hard for me to express the emotion thing to you because you view God as an other, while I do not.

I don't believe God punishes anyone in the Christian sense of the term. i.e. hell, purgatory, (although I do believe in something like purgatory) but not in the Christian sense of the term. ie punishment.