All right, here we go.
I'm a very logistical and factual person, and I've been thinking about this theories and everything else presented to me thru different religions and/or science.
So, I'll appreciate any replies or criticism that will make me know whether I'm alone in this subject and in fact crazy, or that you are all wrong, and I'm the only 'normal' around (If there's such a thing).

About religion, and I'm talking the most common ones that I know about, since I don't know crap about muslims, budhism and such.
First off, I'd like to say I don't believe in religion, mainly because it's not about worshiping God, it's more about trying to make you feel guilty for you being who you are, when it's more blameble in genetic predisposition, opportunity, and enviroment.
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According to the bible, God is all powerful and forgiving and full of love. So, if He is forgiving, why should I get punished for my mistakes? Why is there a hell? Unless of course you are a Seventh Day Adventist and don't believe in hell, and in which case I still get punished by not getting my "final reward".
Question: If I don't believe in God, and I commit sins, it will be considered ignorance. In that case, can I still be judged in case that I'm wrong about all this?

Another thing. And this being more factual than faithful. The genetic material between man and apes is less than 3% (correct me if I'm wrong), which makes me think about something else.
I don't believe in God per sey, as religion presents it to me, but I do think that there's something out there bigger and more powerful than us.
So, if the earth has only been around for approx. 5million years, and the universe has been around for a whole lot more (sorry, I don't remember the time lapse on this one), and we have achieved all that we have in only a few hundred years; is there another race light-years more advance than us? - So far with me?
According to the evolution theory, man and apes decend from a common link. What? So, all of the sudden this missing link decided to split into two different types of mammals and one happen to turned into a moron, and the other one turns intelligent, all of the sudden?
I think that we are a genetic product from another far superior race. We have achieved so much genetically with only a few years of knowledge in the field, who knows what *other* species far more advanced have achieved throughtout all these milleniums.
And I don't want to hear from religious people telling me there's not "another species", because even the bible and a lot of religious denominations' books state so. Don't make me whip out the bible and look for the passage, 'cause I will.

Another thing. The last bone in our vertebral column is identical to those of apes, which makes me think that at some point in history we had a tail. What happened to it? Well, we don't need it anymore! The body, just as nature, has this selective nature of identifying parts of our body that we don't longer require or that we need to improve, like our thumb. That's why, if we don't use certain muscles group, they suffer from athrofy (spelling?). If the decendants of those don't use them either, and so on and so forth, the genetic material passed on to offsprings will change to annulate that muscle group. In the changes part, see Eskimos, why their nose and ears are flat, adapted to the enviroment, so they won't freeze off and fall, just as an example.

The reason we haven't evolutionated any longer is that we work so hard at being so lazy. Instead of adapting to the enviroment or changes, we modify it to suit our needs.

So, so far, I've discussed where we come from, how we evolutionated, religion and God, and why we are not changing any longer.

Now let me tell you where all this crap fall off: The big-bang theory. According to this theory, all the mass of the universe "happened" to be there, rubbing together and exploded into a ever-lasting expansion. Where did this come from? That's where I believe there was a God, unless you could clarify this for me and push me into believing even less that there's no God.

I can't remember right now what else I thought of in this theories, since this is more of a spur of the moment.

Any comments will be appreciated and responded to, as more info. may become available to me.

I think its more like 5 billion years old the earth is.

Well who/what created god? If you assume nothing came before something, who/what created god? Did god appear out of thin smoke? Was god always there. So then there was something to begin with. And if could could have been there to begin with why not energy/matter?

Yes, the earth's been around more than 5 million years... I assume you meant billion.

First of all, if you're skeptical about a 'missing link' splitting into two separate species, it happens all the time. That's how the whole theory of evolution got started, Darwin noticing birds that were virtually identical in some aspects but completely different in others. Apes didn't "turn into" morons, they simply didn't evolve man's thinking skills.

The reason we haven't evolved more is because evolution is a very slow process. There have been noticable changes, however - in average height, for example.

But I do agree with you about technology rendering natural selection useless. Even the least useful to the perpetuation of the race survive with little question.

Which is why I'm pro-euthanasia.

And I find the concept of an incredibly powerful uber-entity being formed from nothingness rather more implausible than a couple of atoms being there.

Soullace: That's why I said that the whole bing-bang theory throw everything else out.
I still believe more in my concepts than the bible, though. You are right, nothing forms from nothing. Maybe that's why we might've invented God, to explaing the inexplainable.
Maybe God exists, and just don't care anymore. Or He only played a role in the beginning and watched from there on. Like a science experiment. My argument was towards the creation of man.

Craftian: Sorry, I did meant 5 billion years. About the apes being morons, I meant not as intelligent as the human specie, don't take me so literal, I just meant to explore new ideas and interchange opinions. I was referring to the fact that I don't understand how two species evolved from a common link can differ so much in an intelectual level.
I do have a question for you. I've noticed the word euthanism a lot lately, but I don't understand the meaning, maybe you could explain.

Again, continue to express your opinions in the subject. I want to either discard my side as useless or take as a credible theory.

Oh, my God! (Just kidding!)
I just went thru even more topics on the subject and there are a lot of confused and inconclusive people out there.
People that base their believes in nothiness and people made things.

Heaven and hell? How about the fact that the WHOLE ENTIRE universe is made of only neutrons, protons, and electrons. Nothing else, positive, negative, and neutral. EVERYTHING.

And I also think that the reason the universe is so perfect (except in the areas where we screw around with), is, again, natural selection.
Let's see: If I touch the fire, I'll burn. I better don't touch it again. Duh! Natural selection, trial and error. I'm sure that nature eliminats what it doesn't work.
That's another reason why the human race is so screwed up. We try so hard in saving every piece of worthless human life out there (Please, try to be objective here and leave the sentimental aside.) We are doing against nature's work by saving all those genes that are defective and passing them on.
Again, sentiment aside, what the hell is the point of keeping alive someone who is parapleligic and retarded? I know these genes won't most likely pass on, but it was just an example.
The human race will never reach perfection if we keep this crap up, unless the modem of medicine we choose is genetical "weeding-out", and eliminating those genes.

This is jumping back a bit:

>>nothing forms out of nothing<<

At the moment those cosmologists pose that the universe did just that. OK, you got the big bang and everything is explodided out from a begining point- hence the current shape of the univers and it's continued epansion. Run this proscess in reverse and eventually we should reach the point where the bang ignited so to speak... I'm no mathematician but this is how they say everything did come from nothing: Firstly the theory os relativity stipulates that the affairs (read nature/laws) of matter cannot be seperatated from those of space and time. Imagine running the cosmic expansion movie in reverse, the galaxies get closer and closer together until they merge. Then all this cosmic material gets squeezed together until a state of vast density is reached. How much density can be reached is a matter of some conjecture, it's like constantly dividing by two- in essence there is no limit.
Suppose there was some limit to this compression, this would imply the existence of some outward force to overcome the enormous gravity produced by such density or the compression would continue. Also this outward force would have to be incredibly vast because the inward force of gravity increases in conjunction with the compression. OK we don't know what strange factors nature could throw up under such extreme conditions... (urgh, I've been rooting in some books for evidence but can't find what I'm looking for- trust me the outside force factor is highly improbable.)... Anyway, the sum of this is that the universe is infinatly compressed at the first moment- this infinate state of compression is known as a singularity.
This singularity ties in with my earlier statement about matter been linked to time and space. Over the billions of years of the universe' outward expansion, time and space also expand along with the matter- conversly space and time where origionaly shrunken along with the matter as a consequence of Einstiens laws. If space is infinately shrunk it literally does not exist and the all important linkage of space/time/matter means niether can the other two elements exist- This is the 'space time singularity' where the laws of physics simply collapse. Without space and time the whole concepts of 'before' or 'nothing' become devoid of meaning. The big bang did not occur in a place or at a time because there were no such things. Everything, space, time, matter and all the rules, they came with the big bang- it's not nothing comes from nothing or even something comes from nothing just... bang. Mind you, those scientists may well change their minds in a decade or so.

As to your eugenicist viewpoints, I think you weeding out proces is dangerous. Firstly we just don't know enough about what we would be weeding- Schizophrenia is undoubtedly debilitating but also has strong links to creativity. Recent findings also suggest that relatives of schizophrenics (admittedly this is generalised) can display rare talents- Einstein is an example and Van Gough was. I also consider the weeding out of genes to be a standardisation of human diversity, just imagine if it got linked to political and social policy- all hail 1984! Besides what about people with downes syndrome? Sure you can consider them retarded but from their and my perspective they can have an admirable quality of life, indeed I suspect they are a lot happier than you or I. Idealy I'm in favor of genetic manipulation but who decides whats good and whats bad? (genetic illneses such as labours diseas which blinds it's carrier or parkinsons for example aside). This is the closest we have ever come to Huxley's 'Brave New World.' Nor do I have any desire to achieve some relatavistic version of perfection (and outside of personal taste I doubt there is such a thing.) I rather like my impurities, they are part of what defines my being. It's like those Roman sculptures of nudes- in their idealised depiction of perfection they are utterly devoid of any erotocism and that is only one example of what perfection can strip you of.

A final point.. why does technology render natural selection useless? Maybe the machines themselves are part of the eqation.

It seems like i have found a new friend.

I couldn't have said it any better myself.

Ok, now I understand more into the theory of the big-bang, how can something come from nothing. Still doesn't give a beggining, but I still find it more credible. Thanks Autoptic.

But that still doesn't explaing the creation of men. If everything came from the same and some species evolutionated more than other, that still doesn't explain the missing link part I talked about above. What my questioning was about was, how can two different and complexes species evolving from a common link differ so much in an intellectual level.

What I was presenting here was a more tactible solution to the equation. Could it be that we are a genetic creation of a far more advanced race somewhere out there? Forget evolution and/or creation here for a moment, those topics were discussed in other forums. This was leaning more towards the expecific creation of men, and the existence of God, whether it's a man-made solution to the unexplainable, or it's a race far more superior than us that we just identyfied as "God".

Something from nothing.

Can't happen.

What ever you belive, something will always have to have existed forever. There must be an infinate somewhere. Somepeople belive this infinate lies in God, some belive it lies in time, some belive it lies in dimentions. What ever way you look at it, you cant prove it anymore one way than the others.

Autoptic grins and cracks the odd knuckle. I'll try and keep this condensed *sigh* but can't promise.

You are right about the time of evolution. There is a problem with Darwinism that people often neglect to mention (except for the odd evangelical). For most species to evolve where they are today, they have to have been through many generations. Alterations from generation to generation are distinctly small and it appears we may be short more than a few generations to have reached our present state... give or take a few tens of millions of years. No one seems to have an answer to this, though there are many different theories, the most popular of which suggests that species sometimes jump- radically. Take your pick what could cause this; enviromental ctastrophy, aliens, divine plans or one of W S Burroughs benign viruses- the jury is still out. Taking a step back it seems probable in my opinion that Darwinism is only part of the picture. My personal tastes make aliens or divine plans seem improbable and would rather point to what we are only begining to understand. Darwinism is an entirely matter oriented theory, part of the same determinist school of science that states that the human qua human experience- the mind and perception in itself are simply useless by-products of chemical activity in the brain. This, however valid strikes me as fascile- it's like stamping your foot and shouting "how do I know you exist". Sure I can't prove that I'm not a brain in a tank but it's just not worth worrying about. The point of this is is that our understanding of reality is based on two irreconsilable theories: Relativity and quantum mechanics, which fundamentaly contradict each other- yet both work. Once you get into the quantum nature of matter and potential states- observation affects the outcome of the experiment- /If the Hubble space telescope were acurate enough to see far enough back in time and light to the ignition of the big bang, would our observation of the quantum forces at play define the nature of the universe?/- paradoxes within paradoxes... I can't give a satisfactory answer to the flaws in Darwinism but I suspect things will make more sense when we can finally reconcile relativity with quantum mechanics.

as to creation and gods... The difference between us an apes is as you say about 3%. The difference between us and the nemotode worm is around 12%. Apes are definately brighter than nemotode worms. The upshot of this is that, in terms of genetics intelectual capacity is not covered by a vast aray of genes (relativly speaking) and is more a matter of energy expense. The brain is a highly expensive organ, consuming about 20% of our fuel intake- apes just dont spent that much on it, prefering to be strong and agile and hang upside-down in tree's by their toe's (the latter of which seems like an excellent idea to me). There isn't necessarilly anything particularly important about intellect in terms of evolution, it just seems to be paying off. Insects are also highly effecient lifeforms and do quite well without it- indeed if our ingenuity does manage to get us extict, they stand a pretty good chance of out-living us and that would probably see evolution turn away from intellect.

Gods... I think I'd better give it it's own post in a few hours, suffice to say the big bang isn't necessarilly the tomb stone of god (anyway Nietzsche showed the bloody dagger a hundred years ago).

[This message has been edited by Autoptic (edited 02-05-2002).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by j0662:
[B]Something from nothing.

Can't happen.

Sorry but I fundamentally disagree with you and it /is/ provable (as long as the current theorems remain valid- which I'll agree is by no means definate). With things as they are the universe is quantifable (theoretically) in scale, length-time (which covers 4th dimension and up in topological terms) and substance... and it will end along with time. Our problems with understanding that without time there can be no infinate is more a linguistic error in my view- something that marks the division between the mathematical and the semiotic (language via signs). If there is no time how can there be a before? Going back to other dimensions, length-time to the nth' power aside, I assume you are implying the alternate kind. Certainly quantum mechanics makes room for this and yes they would be infinate in number, may even follow different laws and every permutatation is concievable. A true example of eternal return. However, with things as they stand (and I stress that theories do change and personally I'm quite sure they will.) it's irrelevant, you cant go there because this multiverse is beyond our space and time. It's as if each dimension is it's own self contained packet, seperated by the absence of space-time and as a result are only concievable mathematicly. The whole concept of infinate is only relevant or applicable to our own 'packet' it seems. The /current/ laws of phsics provably state that you just can't get there. Not only that, if you did you would cease to exist. This provabillity will, in my view probably be undermined (I point back again to the eventual unification of Relativity and quantum mechanics) but at the moment (and maybe I am being pedantic) it's an 'a posteriori truth.

I'll come back to gods latter...

[This message has been edited by Autoptic (edited 02-06-2002).]

The IPU lets everyone go to the Invisible Pink Beach Party...

"You are right about the time of evolution. There is a problem with Darwinism that people often neglect to mention (except for the odd evangelical)"

i mention it all the time and i'm not evangelical.

soullace should be able to attest to that.