I would like to know everyones opinion on Christmas?!!

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http://www.spiritrestoration.org

Bah! Humbug...

IIIIIII HHHHHHHAAAAAAATTTTTTTTEEEEEEEEEE IIIIIIITTTTTTTT
the bigest insult in my life is what do you do you want for cristmas what do you want
but what do you say to people like that now now they are allowing you to pick your gift first and then they can pick something more expensive

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Christmas is about people of many religions and beliefs all coming together to worship Jesus.

Most celebrate it as it was celebrated before Jesus stole it; they celebrate the return of the sun and the lengthening of days. Christmas is a sign that we dont have to surrender our evenings to the wolves and thieves so early any more.
Obviously they dont concioussly do this. Most people dont say, "Yayyy! The solstice! Its the return of light and warmth and a sign we should soon plant food." But they dont celebrate in manners consistent with Christian tradition. They give life-affirming gifts, have sex, get drunk, and praise pagan idols (Saturnalia and Yule inspired Christmas trees)

Yule isn't about the solstice. Stop acting like a neo-pagan.

Yes it is.

christmas is a time for the western world to all come together and celebate fundamental western values and oh ya by the way buy lots and lots of things and spend money and stimulate the economy. it's about capitalism and the status quo

No it isnt.

YES IT IS. Man I had so many fucking arguments with my parents because they wouldn't get off that Pagan shit that the stupid Jehova's Witnesses told them. Then they go on the internet and find like a website about the origin of christmas, saying it originated in 1859!! I was like wtf! and I found like 5 other websites with all different bullshit. If most people say it is about Jesus, and very few people say it's some "Pagan" thing, then I think I'll go with Jesus, and say that If I were God, I probably wouldn't even give a fuck about a stupid little matter like this anymore.

Every Christian holiday in the calendar is modeled within 5 days either before or after a Pagan holiday (Paganism, as should be well known, far outdates Christianity). I think, in observing my witch brother, that it does have to do with the solstice.

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Originally posted by Brent:
Christmas is about people of many religions and beliefs all coming together to worship Jesus.

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I have four words for you:
Hanukah, Kwanza, Ramidan, Santa.

quote:

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Originally posted by DarkSolarLunacy:
christmas is a time for the western world to all come together and celebate fundamental western values and oh ya by the way buy lots and lots of things and spend money and stimulate the economy. it's about capitalism and the status quo

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I'm guessing you're a three-year-old making alphabet soup with your loosely strung quasi-political nonsense. Christmas has nothing to do with the western world, western values, spending money, stimulating the economy, preserving capitalism, or anything that even remotely relates to the status quo. Your father did a horrible job giving you structure as a child. Tell him that.

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Originally posted by ClassicalHiSux:
If most people say it is about Jesus, and very few people say it's some "Pagan" thing, then I think I'll go with Jesus...

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Numbers don't define morality, you fool.

Tell me if this sounds like something your family would do...
Its the very end of December, and the god of light and life is to be born this week. Yay. Lets celebrate by decorating our homes with foliage, and decorating that with shiny gold and red things, stars and shiny balls and such. And we will deck the trees out in glitter and decorum. At night, we will give gifts to each other and give thanks to this god for the happiness he provides our family with.
That is the Saturnalia. It was celebrated thousands of years before Jesus, who was more likely born in March than December. But the Saturnalia celebrates the birth of the sun on the winter solstice, so it was somethign the Christians could easily adopt and transform.

like i've always said,

whether you say sun, or son,

it sounds the exact same.

Sorry Defiant, I was thinking of something else.

hey Krigerhelt.. thanks for the constructive criticism... i always knew there were people out there that loved me... i thought there was a line about having a sense of humor up on the link to this forum...

to go further into my gripe with christmas...

ok... i there are so many points to make i can't even start...

as a US citizen i observe christmas to be a cultural entity that has become closely associated with capitalism in america.

im not talking about how u celebrate christmas or winter solstice or w/e, im talking about how the world at large celebrates it.

people here in america generally see christmas as "a time of giving and celebration and being thankful and generous" and all that good stuff. "christmas spirit" and such.

miracle on 34th street, charlie borwn's christmas and such are my evidence for this.

that takes care of western values, as far as capitalism goes...

don't try to tell me that christmas has nothing to do with spending money... there is a huge thrust in the "free world" to buy buy buy at christmas time. most people don't make a meaningful and interesting gift for sumone.. they buy them a cd or a computer game, or clothing. they spend money, and the capitalists do everything they can to encourage this.

as far as the status quo... anything that helps the agricultural revolution enchanes the status quo. and as one of the bulwarks of western civilization... christmas certainly falls under this.

my point is that christmas has become a hollow mockery of spirituality.. now it only stands for the lame values popular culture tries to attach to a holiday they don't understand or even care to.

i dunno.. i kno im inarticulate... but some people need a leash and muzzle...

Conception and practice are completely separate ideas in any philosophy. Christmas is no different. Christmas's conception (despite its Pagan absorption) is the Christian celebration of the birth of the son of God. Celebration results often in gifts, because giving someone something for no return is praised in any culture. My favorite text (due to my culture), the ancient Asatru Havamal, supports this:

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Havamal 41:
With presents friends should please each other,
With a shield or a costly coat:
Mutual giving makes for friendship,
So long as life goes well.

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And so, coincidentally, celebration supports major corporations. Not that I agree with capitalism or its conception, but Christmas is not the ploy of corporations you make it out to be.

By the way, I don't see where your criticism of the status quo comes from. I don't understand how the majority of living standards within this country stems from Christmas or its "evils".

By the way, does anyone have any idea why my "insert signature" option is no longer prevalent in my posts?

[This message has been edited by Krigerhelt (edited 01-10-2002).]

I have to agree with the sentiments of FOR THE MOST PART Im not saying it is for you....

Christmas has become nothing but a hollow shell of consumerism bullsh*T now in my mind.

I was not looking forward to christmas at all indeed I hate it but did manadge to enjoy myself on the day because I didnt care about pissing people off. Dont take this the wrong way I didnt do so on purpose but being expected at 6 different houses etc. etc. blah.

Oh and yes Jesus was not supposed to have been born on christmas but christians were persecuted so almost all christian holidays are closely related to pagan holiday's so that they could pretend to be celebrating a pagan holiday when in reality it was a christian holiday.

Pagan festival.
Roman festival.
Christian festival.
Capitalist festival.

http://www.christmascarnivals.com/aboutchristmas/
http://www.counterthink.com/article1002.html
http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Letter/v2n10-1.htm
http://hope-of-israel.org/christ~3.htm

Thus, christmas was first the winter solstice until christendom decided to 'take it over' and call it 'the day jesus was born'--which isnt even close to true.

Fun stuff. Kinda like all the other christian holidays.

I think christmas has kind of lost its meaning. I mean, really, everyone celebrates christmas now. Its not like its just for christans catholics, whatever. During christmas we don't go around saying "oh we are all jesus's children, let us thank him and be good to him by being friendly to our fellow man" What I mean by that is, if you have a problem with religion, celebrating holiday, etc, you really shouldn't anymore because, well, most holidays have really lost their meaning. Bahhh I don't know what I'm saying
I really should learn to organize my thoughts better.

It's the pagan celebration for the Winter Soltice... I believe.

But, then the Catholics decided they were sick of being called pagans, so they said that that guy they hung out on that cross was their new God and made that his birthday. Then they killed everyone who refused to go along with the charade until everyone just kind of said

"O...kay..."

Cheers,
Lost