She is now a born again, bought by the blood Christian whom has more authority and power over any occultic witchcraft out there. Because of her high priestess experience, she is a serious threat to the livelihood of the ONA and can give excellent counsel to those who want to get out.

Also. I was molested at seven years of age. It was not by choice that I was molested. Perhaps you do not know that according to the Dept of Human Services here in Ohio, 1 in 7 boys are molested before they grow up and one in three girls are too. So the reason I added that in my story is because there are many people out there that are too ashamed to reveal what has happened to them for fear of the very reprisals that ignorant people give. The vast majority of men on death row in the prison system were molested as children. When a child molester gets time you can be sure that that person will be subject to the cruelest revenge ever administered by the prison population. Boys that grow up molested learn to hate and kill. And if I were not a christian, I would have followed the same logic because I would have sought revenge against those who caused my shame.

I got help, many have not. You can try to state that I am weaker by what has happened to me but I say that those who go through the combat in life's front lines are much stronger than those who were raised by the silver spoon. I state this because those who have faced the storms of life are like a tree that has deep roots that enable it to weather the strongest of storms. However those who have the easy life have shallow roots and when a storm comes their way, they will be uprooted because their roots are shallow.

Let's not forget that I overcame the trials and gained much wisdom in the process. I learned valuable lessons in being street-wise that the naive will never know. I also graduated from high school with TWO college scholarships. Whereas those who have not learned to fight to the end... did not achieve this success.

Again I state, I have studied the issues at hand. I do not and can not put complex issues in print on this type of forum. But I can refer anyone with an open mind to references and discover for themselves what I have learned years ago.

No matter what I type, there will be those who will always try to tear my opinions apart. But regardless of what they do, they can not give a better excuse as to why God does not exist. The evidence in support of a supernatural creator is so overwhelming that to believe otherwise is to close their eyes and reject Christianity DESPITE of the evidence and not because of it.

We did not just appear from nothing. For nothing can create nothing. We all had to come from somewhere. The universe is FINITE. It could not have simply been there. Stars burn themselves out. Eventually, all the fuel will burn up. But where did the fuel come from in the first place. Ask any atheist
and they will not able to give a logical answer. The complexity of life from the smallest particles of DNA to the rich gravitational forces that are just strong enough; within such a narrow gap to substain life on this planet are too coincidental. We are here because whoever put us here did it for one's pleasure. And it seems so far from observed science, we are the only planet that has life. I have covered in my previous article just how remote the possibility is for life to just appear from nothing, much less a dead universe. There was a Creator. I stated that this creator had to be greater than the effect because the effect had to have a Cause. This is just simple logic. Even a child can understand.

I have yet to hear a response as to why there is not a creator out there. So far all I have recieved is hostile rhetoric and bullshit. If you want us to believe that there is no God out there then tell us how our universe came to be? Tell us how life miraculously appeared on a dead planet? Tell us why we are just far enough away from the sun to support life and why our planet wobbles at just the right speed to support the four seasons. Tell us how the moon got to be just far enough away to not come crashing into the earth's gravity and yet not far enough away to take off on it's own? And for that matter, the same for the earth and sun. Tell me how the sun's energy burns through fusion rather than fission? How is it that it does not collapse under it's own gravity and still be able to radiate energy out into space? Instead of mocking me give me some answers! Oh Wise One?

Christians are not blind seekers. We are intelligent rational beings that observe the evidence at hand. We do not try to mold the evidences around ideas or opinions but just accept it as it is and judge our theories based on the facts at hand. This is why evolution will not work. It has too many leaky holes in it that have not been explained. Many of palentologist's evidences have been distorted by misreprentation of the facts at hand. Jawbones of pigs were used to describe how an ape could become a man. They still have no concrete basis for their beliefs and they never will. It takes far more blind faith to accept the other solutions out there than to accept the Biblical one! There simply is no excuses for why things are the way they are by chance. To believe otherwise is to demonstrate one's ignorance and not of naivity.

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If you will the rat race, your still a rat!

Ramble about experience all you want. Your not a soldier, youre an abused puppy. Theres so much to refute on this Im not going to bother.
You keep associating anyone whose against Christianity with people who are against the existence of divinity. There are people who reject your crucified slave but accept other Creators. Why are you right? What makes your book better than the Havamal, for example?
Up til now no one has questioned your findings, but since Im starting to loathe you more and momre, Im thinking more clearly. Why is it impossible for life to happen as chance. The theories these egghead professors are advancing concerning the impossibility of evolution are no different than the theories of evolution you say aer so illogical. Youre telling me that scientists know the probability of life occuring? The exact ratio? No, they have a litle equation, p=F1P2 yadda yadda yadda. They dont have numbers to fill that in. How do you know tht the probability of chemicals organizing to form cells is actually much greater, and there is life unheard of floating all over space? You dont. Shut up. Your scientists are theoreticians. Well paid, and with nice little decorations on the wall, but nevertheless, abotu as credible as you or I. But the hearth is calling, dinners ready, so Im leaving with that.

I'm an atheist. I don't want you to think the way I do. Why do you want me to believe like you do though? I think there is infinity, without an unnecessarry creator of anything. It's just simple logic that this creator would need a creator. And I think it's pretty clear that humans created god. So I don't see a reason to believe in it.

The Bible is not just another book. It is quite unique. It is different from all the others; it has no equal or likeness. 1) It was written over a 1500 year span. 2) It was written by over 40 authors from every walk in life; from kings to peasants, from military leaders to fishermen, from philosophers to poets, from tax collectors to statesmen, and from scholars to shepherds. 3) The Bible was written in different places from palaces to dungeons, from the wilderness to the Isle of Patmos; on three different continents. 4) It was written during times of war and peace. 5) And it was written in three different languages.

The Bible is unique in it's translation. It was one of the first major works to be translated. Around 250 B.C. the Old Testament was translated from Hebrew into Greek. It is unique in it's survival. Although it was written on perishable materials and was copied and recopied by hand for hundreds of years; it has never diminished in style or in correctness. Nor has the earlier copies faced extinction!

Of all the other books out there; the Koran, the book of Mormon, the Hindu Veda; none of them contain predictive prophecy except the Bible! It is historically accurate. The Bible focuses on reality not fantasy! It is still considered a great literary work. It is one of the most important documents in the history of our civilization. French philosopher Jean Jacques Rousseau stated: "Behold the works of our philosophers; with all their pompous diction, how mean and contemtable they are by comparison of the Scriptures! Is it possible that a book at once so simple and sublime should merely be a work of man?"

The Bible has passed many a test in both internal and external criticisms. How I wish I had a scanner so that I could upload all the hundreds of resources available on this subject!

Tacitus, Suetonius, Josephus, Eusebius, Papias, Irenaeus, Ignatius, Polycarp, Tatian, Plinty the Younger, the Emperor Trajan, Lucian, Mara Bar-Serapion, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Thallus, Phlegon, Quadratus, Arisides, Hegesippus, Macrobius, Hadrian, Antonius Pius, Marcus Aurelius, Juvenal, Seneca, Hierocles; all were some of the most accurate historians of their time! There is the witness of archeology! I could write a book on that subject alone! Others have! Yet you are so blind! We have nearly all of the locations, inscriptions of the political leaders and even the monetary coinage used during Jesus' day! We have the Dead Sea Scrolls; some of which were written about 125 B.C. Would you like for me to expound on the other writings as well?

If Jesus was not God, He at least deserves an Oscar! He had the authority to perform miracles. They were eyewitnessed by hundreds of credible witnesses. Heck all the Old Testament prophecies about Him came true!

I can even PROVE Jesus rose from the dead! A book was written on that very subject.

The Bible is a reliable, accurate, historical document that has sold more copies than any on New York Times best seller lists!

I have all the theories by many a skeptic. I am even ready to argue against the collegiate "Documentary Hypothesis" and the "Wellhausen Theory". I have the archeological data to back up my claims. Do you? I can argue Hume and Kant.

Listen up!

If you will the rat race, your still a rat!

[This message has been edited by Onefinefeller (edited 08-25-2001).]

Fred you need to read some of my other writings so you can catch up. I have already discussed this issue in another location.

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If you will the rat race, your still a rat!

>>>>The Bible is not just another book. It is quite unique. It is different from all the others; it has no equal or likeness. 1) It was written over a 1500 year span. 2) It was written by over 40 authors from every walk in life; from kings to peasants, from military leaders to fishermen, from philosophers to poets, from tax collectors to statesmen, and from scholars to shepherds. 3) The Bible was written in different places from palaces to dungeons, from the wilderness to the Isle of Patmos; on three different continents. 4) It was written during times of war and peace. 5) And it was written in three different languages.<<<<

And THIS is the word of God? A compilation that took centuries, and spanned continents? In all this changing hands, all the different viewpoints, all the different languages and cultures, it was never altered I suppose? There are over 200 versions of the Bible.

>>>The Bible is unique in it's translation. It was one of the first major works to be translated.<<<<

Bullshit. The works of Alexander, Chinese medicine, Indian writing, Egyptian text, all these predate the Bible. They were translated by Greeks or ROmans.

It is unique because it is totally accurate and there is no conflicting statements in it that I am aware of. Yes there are many translations today but that is for people to find what is easiest to read. The original copies are still available! The Hebrew Old Testament was translated into Greek and given the name "Septuagint" in about 250 B.C.

I have 144 cases of translations to other languages from Eyptian, Assyrian, Babylonian, and Moabite into Hebrew texts and 40 cases of the opposite. The evidence shows that from 3900 B.C. to 2300 B.C.copies of the translations were handed down from the originals with the most acute accuracy and though some of the documents were written thousands of years apart, they have only minute changes in the documentation today.

The oldest Egyptian transcripts were written during the 18th dynasty called the Papyrus of Ani. I did not state that the writings were the oldest. I stated that they were one of the oldest translations.

My reference comes from Professor Gleason Archer Jr. "A Survey of the Old Testament Introduction" page 23-25. I can give you a complete breakdown if you would like but I will save it for another day because it is 2:30 am and I am tired.

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If you will the rat race, your still a rat!

quote:

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Originally posted by Onefinefeller:
It is unique because it is totally accurate and there is no conflicting statements in it that I am aware of.

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Next time you read it, try actually looking at the words.

Then laugh at the clever darkness of the Jewish psyche, and how incompatible it is with any psychologically healthy European and throw it in the garbage.

fred i think you need to re-read your post.

"I think there is infinity, without an unnecessarry creator of anything. It's just simple logic that this creator would need a creator."

nothing in this universe is infinite, and if this universe was created outside the realm of the universe,

whatever was outside would be infinite and not needing a creator itself or himself.

"Youre telling me that scientists know the probability of life occuring?"

i actually posted this formula

(nothing + nobody) * flying chance = everything.

Who said anything about Nothing? What about Odin? What about Jupiter?

Whaddya mean there's nothing infinite? There's no end to how small something can be or how big it can be. It could be that everything is a cycle, the big bang is the start and the end for example, and the cycle never stops. I think the infinite is right here.

Clearly you have not read my essay. To refresh your memory...

I believe the God of the Bible is the most logical explanation for our universe as we know it today. Consider these next few statements of rational logic. First, there has to be a cause for every effect. The universe had to come from something. There is no natural explanation for how the sun, moon, and stars could come from nothing! Therefore, for every effect, there has to be a cause! This Cause has to come from outside the universe; outside of nature. In other words;...supernatural. When I state "supernatural" I mean; a limitless being outside of time and space. Think about it! The only religion that ever stated otherwise was the biblical concept of Genesis! God always existed, but the universe did not!
Second, the Cause must be independent of it's effect. It can not be required to depend it's existence upon the universe. For nothing can change from a state of nothingness.
Third, the Cause must be infinitely powerful! If it were limited, it would have to be confined by some other thing. It can not be limited by nothing and if it were limited, it would not be independent any longer. The effect can not be greater than the cause. The Cause has to be greater than the effect! It has to be greater than all the forces of the universe combined!
Fourth, the first Cause must be eternal. The creator must exist outside of time. The God of the Bible stated this in Exodus 3:14 and John 8:58. All the other religions honored harvest gods, war gods, mood gods, sun gods, animal-headed gods, fertility gods and goddesses. In fact, most of these gods were restricted to time as well as location. (1)
Fifth, the first Cause must be spiritual. Only an entity outside the universe could have created it. It must be beyond the physical elements. John 4:24 states that God is Spirit.
Sixth, the first Cause must be all-knowing. The creator created the universe. Albert Einstein wrote, "The harmony of natural law... reveals and intelligence of such superiority that compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an insignificant reflection." (2)
Last, the first Cause must be a Person. There is design in the universe. For it is balanced by the four fundamental nuclear forces. If altered by the slightest one millionth of a degree, all the stars would cease to exist. The Person would have to be a creator with desires, because the creator did not need the creation in order to exist. Rather, the universe was created out of pleasure! It is not unreasonable to suggest that the Bible is the best explanation there is!

THE OTHER SOLUTIONS...

There are only three possible theories as to the reason the universe is eternal. Some religions teach that the cause and effect are equal; "God and the universe are one". This contradicts what I stated earlier that for every cause there must be an effect. "Duality" is not logical! Astrophysicist Steven Hawking stated, "People go overboard on eastern mysticism simply because it is something different that they haven't met before. But as a natural description of reality; it fails abysmally to produce results." (3)

The Steady State Cosmology Theory is the scientific equal to eastern religious thinking. The scientific version had three originators: Herman Bondi, Thomas Gold, and Fred Hoyle. It suggests that a "creation field" be added to Einstein's general relativity equations to demonstrate that matter was being created at a rate precisely counterbalanced by the universe's expansion; so that the average density of the universe remains constant.
Einstein initially agreed with this explanation and added his "cosmological constant" in order to alter his computations and preserve the idea of a universe without a beginning. However in 1931, Einstein was forced to admit his "mistake" due to the observations of Edwin Hubble. (4)
In 1929, Edwin Hubble discovered that all distant galaxies are retreating from us at a speed that is directly proportional to their distances from us. This means that if a galaxy is twice as far from the Milky Way, it is moving twice as fast from us. This discovery is now known as "Hubble's Law". Robert Jastrow; founder of NASA's Goddard Institute and is current director of Mount Wilson Observatory; where Hubble made his discoveries stated, "The Hubble Law is one of the greatest discoveries in science; it is one of the main supports of the scientific story of Genesis." (5) Keep in mind; Jastrow is a self proclaimed agnostic. (6) Today, the Hubble Telescope has discovered that the universe's expansion is now decelerating from an initial surge. The universe is exploding rather than expanding! This theory was soon discarded.

The second theory was called "Plasma Cosmology". It suggested that most of the universe is composed of electrically conducting gasses. Hannes Alfv'en, the originator, suggested that plasma indirectly creates a repelling effect between galaxy superstructures, casuing the expansion of the universe. Unlike the Big Bang Theory that suggests an explosion started at a single point; Alfv'en believed it was a series of "mini-bangs". He suggested that the universe expands and contracts to one percent of it's present size. Yet, for some unknown reason, the plasma blows the universe apart again, thus maintaining eternal equilibrium. (7)

The "Quasi-Steady State Cosmology" theory is a spin-off of Plasma Cosmology. Originated in 1993 by Fred Hoyle, Burbridge, and Narlikar. The theory suggests that the "creation field" (from which matter is born) only exists in certain areas of high mass density. The fields alternately increase and decrease during the history of the universe. This results in slow and fast expansion. They claim that the universe is one trillion years old and that we are living in the middle of a short term slowdown in it's expansion rate. This gives the appearance of an equillibrium between collapse and accelerated expansion that would be too rapid for galaxies to form.
Both of these theories do not account for the composition of the spectrographic studies or for how the universe came out of nothing. These theories also haven't been able to explain the smooth background radiation now observed coming from every point in the sky. (More on this later)
The last theory is much like the previous one and the refutation of them both is to be equally regarded. The "Cyclic Cosmological Theory" is the belief that the density of the universe will expand to the point of a critical anti-matter amount and then reverse itself into a big squeeze. At this point, it will "re-bang" itself into a new universe again.

One can't take either of these views seriously; Einstein's theory of relativity states that once matter crunches itself into a ball, (like a black hole) nothing, not even light can escape. This is due to the magnetic pull. It takes a projectile to reach the speed of 25,000 miles per hour to leave the earth's gravity. For a body to be massive enough; like a star, it collapses under it's own gravity. Incidently black holes exist. An example of that would be Cygnus X-1; it turned out to be a collapsed supergiant whirling around an invisable object every five days.
If matter can not re-bang itself from a black hole, it can not do it if the universe was a black hole either! "Even if someday such a theory could developit won't be in regular cycles of expansions and contractions; rather it will be even greator and more chaotic ones!" (8) And this still does not explain how something could come out of nothing. George Smoot; team leader of the Cosmic Background Explorer Satellite System of NASA, stated that all these theories will die out when the orginators die out. Science simply doesn't support them any longer. (9)

It is perfectly alright for someone to state his metaphysical opinions about what caused or didn't cause the universe, but it is wrong to state that science provided the information. Astrophysicist Barry Parker states "We do, of course, have an alternative. We could say that there is no creation, and that the universe has always been there. But this is more difficult to accept than creation! (10) All the other options point to a biblical God and natural science ends where the Bible begins!". (11)

The Big Bang theory describes a creation event that defies atheism and pantheism but harmonizes with the Bible. It is the only theory that observational evidence does support. It wasn't till recently that anyone had reason to believe that there was a biblical beginning.
In 1933, George Lemaitre' became the father of the Big Bang theory. Back in 1927, Lemaitre' predicted that a premeval atom, otherwise known as a singularity, might still be detected in a form of remnant radiation. Other Big Bang theorists such as George Gamov, Ralph Alpher, and Robert Herman; have stated that the heat radiating from the explosion might still exist. Unlike a volcano or a microwave oven; in which heat can escape into the atmosphere, there is nowhere outside of the universe where heat can escape.
In 1965, two astrophysicists; Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson at AT&T Bell Laboratories in New Jersey found the radiation while attempting to refine one of the world's most sensitive radio recieving devices to measure a true temperature of absolute zero. It was their hypothesis that absolute zero could be determined by directing the radio antenna towards the sky and measuring the temperature within space. No matter where they pointed the reciever, the level of radiation remained at 2.7 degrees Kelvin. They found this to be very frustrating because no matter what day or night, nor what season it was, the temperature of the radiation remained unchanged. In 1978, Arno and Robert, each, recieved the Nobel Peace Prize for discovering this amazing fact! This later became known as Cosmic (which means the entire universe) Microwave (which means radiowaves measuring less than one meter) Background Radiation (which means radiation measured everywhere).
In 1990, NASA spent $200 million dollars producing the COBE (Cosmic Background Explorer) satellite. It gave a comologist a chance to make more accurate measurements of the radiation. The Microwaves matched perfectly the characteristics that the universe was once a great fireball that detonated all over the vast empty regions of what is now our universe. It is now a scientific fact that no onter theory other than the creation event could have created the universe! The results were 99.97% accurate! (12) Astrophysicists John Barrow and Joseph Silk stated that there are no known sources that can account for the source of this radiation other than the cosmic background at a constant observed level. (13)
In 1979, Dr. Alan Guth determined that the size of the universe doubles and at given intervals as the result of the initial speeds of the universe from the time that the universe began; have slowed down due to the decrease of heat in subatomic particles. (14) At the time of the explosion the temperature was too hot for particles to form and in less than a trillionth of a second later, the temperature cooled below one hundred thousand degrees Kelvin to form quarks and electrons. As the temperatures continued to fall, the quarks clumped together to form protons and neutrons, producing hydrogen our first element. At the time of the explosion, the entire universe consisted of a region a trillionth of the size of a proton. It expanded in velocity of about one fourth the speed of light. Any uneven radiation could have been smoothed out by the rapid force of expansion! The evidence is found in COBE satellite data. (15) The universe could have come from nothing, but that does not explain where the thermonuclear reactions came from, or the fact that this explosion was not random, but rather a finely tuned explosion that produced the elements necessary to create intelligent life! George Smoot wrote; "The Beginning is as inescapable for cosmologists as it is for theologians." (16) Robert Jastrow wrote; "The essentrial element in the astronomical and biblical accounts of Genesis are the same; the chain of events leading to man, commenced suddenly and sharply, at a definite moment in time, in a flash of light and energy." (17)
The evidence of design by a creator is discovered more clearly as we understand how the universe works. Scientists understand how the universe's laws are set within extremely narrow and critical parameters. Physicist Freeman Dyson stated; "The more I examine the universe and the details of it's architecture, the more evidence I find that the universe in some sense must have known we were coming." (18)

Where did all the natural laws of design come from? It is superstitious to believe the laws of nature govern themselves and the universe without cause! I have a supernatural explanation, do you have a natural one?

The observational evidence listed in the next few pages will prove that the laws of astrophysics were designed by a highly intelligent creator; God. First, the carbon atomshould not exist or be exceedingly rare. In order for the carbon atom to form, it needs to be at a precise level of resonance. Resonance is the nuclear behavior of excitement within the nucleus of an atom. Nuclei is normally configured for stability and minimum energy. It can be excited as the result of colliding with other nuclei. When this happens, the proton moves into a higher orbit. A helium nuclei will collide with another to form beryllium. Then another helium nuclei collides with the short lived beryllium to form carbon. If the resonance was just a bit lower, carbon could not form. If the resonance was just a bit higher the energy level would destroy the carbon atom instantly. (19) When Hoyle calculated the odds that such resonances could occure by chance, he stated that his faith in agnosticism was greatly shaken. (20) Princeton's physicist Freeman Dyson stated that lucky accidents such as chains of carbon atoms, still could not form water, organic molecules, and the hydrogen to bridge between the molecules. (21) Even Carl Sagan admits that the laws of nature can not occur at random; "It is easy to see that only a very restricted range of laws of nature are consistent with the galaxies, stars, planets, life and intelligence." (22)
Second, if the ratio between the proton (which is 1836 times heavier than the electron), and the electron slightly different; there would be no chemistry, or life, or any physicists to wonder about it all! Stephen Hawking says; "The remarkable fact is that the values of their numbers seems to have been very finely adjusted to make possible the development of life." (23)
Third, if the four fundamental nuclear forces in nature (gravity, electromagnetism, strong and weak atomic structures) had been a slightly different strength; life would not be possible. The sun would cease to burn or explode like a fission bomb. (24,25)
Fourth, the natural processes alone can not explain the specified complexities of the encoded information in DNA. Hoyle, Gold, Orgel, and Arrhenius calculated the odds that all the functional proteins necessary for life that might form in one place at ten to the fourty thousandth power. (That's 1 with 40,000 zero's after it) Since there are only ten to the eightith atoms in the entire universe; this suggestion was an outrageously small probability!
Fifth, the odds that the relative strengths that two forces could balance each other (gravity: which holds a star together and electromagnetic force: which allows a star to radiate energy) in every star were altered by a mere ten to the fourtith power, we'd have a world in which all stars were either red dwarfs or blue supergiants; making it impossible for planets to support human life. (26)
Sixth, we have no modern theory why, contrary to the second law of thermodynamics, our universe got into such an orderly state. The odds are ten to the tenth power times ten to the ten to the thirtieth power! (27)
Seventh, astrophysicist Richard Morris stated; "If our universe had been expanding at a rate that was slower than one part per million, then the expansion would have stopped when the universe was only thirty thousand years old, and when the temperature was still ten thousand degrees." (28) If expanding at a slightly faster rate, the universe would be devoid of stars and galaxies, and hence, the building blocks of which life is made. (29)
Eighth, there is a slight excess of matter over anti-matter. In 1932, Carl Anderson discovered anti-matter in a lab at Caltech. Emilio Segri and Owen Chamberlain generated their own anti-matter and demonstrated that when energy is converted into matter, anti-matter is equally created. Nobel prize winning physicist Steven Weinberg explained how rare this small excess of matter must have been; "If there had not been a small excess of electrons over anti-electrons, and quarks over anti-quarks, then ordinary particles like electrons and quarks would be virtually absent in the universe today. It is this early excess; estimated at one part per ten billion, that survived to form light atomic nuclei three minutes after the explosion, and after a million years, formed atoms which later was cooked into heavier elements found in stars, which ultimately provided the material of which life would arise." (30)
Ninth, the centrifugal force perfectly balances the gravitational forces of the moon's orbit around the earth. If the earth's gravity had been too weak, the moon would leave the earth's gravitational pull. If the gravity was too great, the moon would have crashed into the earth! This is also true of the earth's rotation around the sun and that of all the planets in our solar system, as well as all the galaxies to the farthest ends of our universe!

(These are only nine of twenty five total. For more information, see reference #31 in bibliography)

Our universe was born as the result of natural laws that do not seem to change. For those who think science needs more time to evaluate this situation, is not 15 to 20 billion light years enough time? (The universe is approximately thirty billion lightyears across. With the doubling effect of expansion at given time intervals, it is estimated that the age of the universe is approximately 15 billion years.)

Some people believe Hollywood's suggestion that multiple universes exist and converge upon one another like branches of a tree. Given the facts that we know to be true, if other universes do exist, (in finite numbers) there is a high probability they would not support life. Physicist/mathematician Paul Davies stated; "One may find it easier to believe in an infinite array of universes than in an infinite Deity, but such a belief must rest on faith rather than observation." (32)

Some people actually believe that life must have been sent here on a spaceship from a dying civilization and that perhaps the astronaut's bacteria survived the journey. Others have suggested that genetic material was sent to this perfect planet for some sort of lab experiment. Of course these excuses only begs the question: How did life begin in the first place? If natural laws can not explain how life began on this "ideal" planet, how can it be so at any location?

Some people believe in the ultimate game of chance; Quantum Mechanics. This is the belief that there is no reality until someone observes it. If this idea were true then looking through a telescope could alter events billions of years into the past! This suggestion gives it's enthusiast's a chance to speculate that through man's act of observation, he caused his own creation along with the conditions necessary for life!
Of course, this theory creates a which came first; the chicken or the egg problem that can go on forever! This idea still does not address the need for a first cause. Incidently, physicists have never observed any effects in our visible world and very few scientists take seriously the notion that the universe, so perfectly designed, changed because someone looked at it! Perhaps the whole universe had no existance till it was observed? But who would be outside the universe to observe it? Does this not sound like the transcendent God? Soon as these folks realize that they are wrestling with the supernatural explanation that they have strived to avoid!

Some people believe that life must exist till the end of time, in a closed universe. In order for life to survive in that hot, dense time, when the universe will contract once again; our descendents must evolve to a very different and advanced civilization. Before the end of time, our super computer-like society will achive the ability to process an infinate amount of information. At that point, which will be called the "Origin Point", we will assume the role of gods. We will process and infinite amount of thoughts, at infinite speed, our evolved supreme civilization will redefine time; ensuring an eternity for ourselves and for every living being that existed in the past. Our future descendents will view the human soul as a program that can be replicated. They will propose that this infinite intelligence will resurrect each of us, so that we might be appropriately rewarded or reformed. (33) People that are willing to consider such wild explanations can only demonstrate how impossible it is for them to avoid the evidence for design. We all must decide whether to credit the design of intelligence to God or to ourselves.

For some, the thought that humans might be the only form of intelligent life in the universe, strikes most with being extremely unscientific. Many scientists have suggested that the universe must be teeming with extraterrestrials by now, (34) in order to conform with the assumption about biological evolution. Robert Jastrow stated; "If life is common, we'll be hearing from those guys soon, because we are in a very conspicuous part of the universe right now. Our televison and radio waves are spread all around us. It is reasonable to assume that advanced technological civilizations will be aware of radio physics. There is only one radio spectrum, and it's the same everywhere in the universe." (35,36) So why have we not picked up any signals yet? If there are so many civilizations, more advanced than ours, certainly they would want to explore and colonize other planets in the galaxy! Ours would be ideal! We have the right conditions for life. So where are they?

Some people ask that if the universe is so vast; why would God make the universe so huge? With all the billions of stars and galaxies like our own, why are we so special? Astrophyicists John Barrow and Joseph Silk states that no one could exist if the universe were any smaller. They point out that life's building blocks: carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, phosphorus, and silicon; were not formed until after the first generation of stars have slowly cooked the hydrogen and helium into the heavier elements which planets are made out of. (37) Given the fact that the universe has been stable throughout it's expansion, more time results in a larger universe. Further they stated; "Hence, we realize that for there to be time to construct the constituents of living beings, the universe must be more than a billion years old and consequently, more than a billion light years in size. The universe would have to be just as large as it is to support even one lonely outpost of life." (38)

We have only three choices. Either we decide that the universe, or mankind, or God is running the universe. Those willing to choose an alternative other than God, defies logic. The other two choices have no explanation or theory on which they can stand. Please understand that all the quotes, except one are from scientists who are not bible believing Christians. This report has not been prejudiced by a Christian viewpoint. Those who have rejected the God of the Bible have to base their conclusions inspite of the evidence and not because of it!

Some people believe that God is one with the universe. This idea is not consistent with science becuase the universe had a beginning. Belief in blind chance requires considerable faith. Taken to it's logical end; it's so pathetic that it's almost funny! Logic dictates that we should devote our short lives to finding the means to know the one outside of time and space. Although the world is filled with suffering and violence; if people seek the answer, they would find out that God has done something about it all. There is good logic in trusting the one cosmic history that fits what we know of God.

Many state that if the Big Bang were true, then it is in direst conflict with the Bible's six day account in Genesis. Yet in Hebrew, "day" means "yom", which has been translated to mean a specific period of time and not to be confused with a solor day.(39) Christian tradition also agree's with this concept, as pointed out by the first century writers; Philo and Josephus. (40) Other writers include: Augustine (41), second century apologist and martyr; Irenaeus, third century apologist; Origen, fourth century bishop of Caesarea; Basil, thirteenth century; Thomas Aquinas. (42) In the twentith century, this position was held by C.T. Scofield, A.H. Strong, and Gleason Archer.

There are also scripture references that gives a general sense of a time consuming process; including ages:

Psalm 104
Proverbs 8:22-31
Ecclesiastes 3:11a
Micah 6:3
Habakkuk 3:6

Genesis was not written specifically about when and how the universe was created, but who created it! Psalms 111:2 states "Great are the works of the Lord; they are studied by all who delight in them!"
It would be deceptive of God's character to create a universe that would appear to be billions of years old and yet be only six solar days. Starlight can only travel so fast. For the span of the universe to be thirty billion light years across; the universe must be pretty old! This suggestion does not necessarily mean that the biblical concept of Genesis would agree with Darwin's evolutionary dogmas either. However, science and the Bible agree that planets and animals were created first and that man and mammals were created last.

God created the entire universe plus self-conscious beings like Himself. Having been given a freedom of choice, these persons eventually declared their independence from God and broke His laws; which were necessary for the good life that God planned for them. The situation became very unpleasant for God and so He had two choices. He could have exterminated them; the end, the plan failed. Or, out of His caring concern and love for them; provide a solution. He could not simply forgive anyone because He had to do something about all the injustice in the world. God pronounced a just sentence (Romans 8:1); but also provided a full pardon to all who would take it. He had to be mortal because God can not die and He had to be God because only a sinless person could pay for the sins of another. If Jesus is who He claimed to be, then it is not unreasonable for God to be bound by death! Nor is it unreasonable to suggest that He should have the power and the purpose to rise from the dead! In fact; it would be unreasonable for God to be bound by death!
If the infinite Creator wanted to communicate to all of us earthlings what He was like; how could He show us more clearly than becoming one of us? If He wanted to show us how serious the offense is, to break His moral law, how better than to forfeit His own life? And if He wanted to tell us how much He loves us, how could He do it more dramatic than dying for us?

Biblical faith is more than intellectual reasoning. It is the logical choice! Other religions have teachings about an historical person, but it is Christianity that's based on what a person did. Of all the religions, no other has left such lucid evidence of God's involvement with humanity. We can either appreciate God's way more deeply or we can stubbornly and foolishly decide to go our own way and see where the outcome will lead. Anyone wishing to make sure that he has taken the first step of faith, should confess his moral failings to God and then in his own words, thank God for sending His own Son Jesus to die for him! From that point on, trust Christ to lead and develop his worth in a way that would never had been known without Him.


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If you will the rat race, your still a rat!

quote:

---

First, there has to be a cause for every effect. The universe had to come from something. There is no natural explanation for how the sun, moon, and stars could come from nothing!

---

Where did God come from?

This explanation, God, just creates another question... It is worthless.

>>>>.Last, the first Cause must be a Person. There is design in the universe. For it is balanced by the four fundamental nuclear forces.<<<<

So in all his infinite wisdom, knowledge, and power, its a man?

>>>>>If altered by the slightest one millionth of a degree, all the stars would cease to exist.<<<<

Probably not.

>>>>>The person would have to be a creator with desires, because the creator did not need the creation in order to exist. Rather, the universe was created out of pleasure!<<<<

Hes one sick fuck then to get pleasure out of this realm of wrath and tears.

>>>It is not unreasonable to suggest that the Bible is the best explanation there is!<<<<<

Yes it is. Im more inclined to believe a Mayan.

God is declared eternal. God is spirit. Spirit is supernatural. It is like a circle. There is no beginning or end in the spirit realm. God always existed. The universe had a beginning; it did not always exist. I am giving the only possible answer there is because there is nothing within the universe in which caused it to create itself. God does not depend on anything within a natural universe to survive; therefore God always existed. God is not confined by time, whereas we are.

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If you will the rat race, your still a rat!

[This message has been edited by Onefinefeller (edited 08-25-2001).]

If altered by the slightest one millionth of a degree, all the stars would cease to exist.

You say probably not... where may I get your reference to this? I am getting mine straight from the horse's mouth; NASA. Physicist Richard Morris stated "If our universe had been expanding at a rate that was slower than one part per million. then the expansion would have stopped when it was only thirty thousand years old, when the temperature was still ten thousand degrees." Astronomers John Barrow and Joseph Silk gives another perspective; "Worlds expanding much faster than the critical rate would almost certainly be devoid of stars and galaxies and hence the building blocks of which life is made out of."

Would you like the references?

John Barrow and Joseph Smith, "The Left Hand of Creation - The Origin and Evolution of the Expanding Universe" (New York: Basic Books, 1983), pp. 71-72
Richard Morris, "The Fate of the Universe" (New York: Playboy Press, 1982)p. 152



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If you will the rat race, your still a rat!

>>>>>The person would have to be a creator with desires, because the creator did not need the creation in order to exist. Rather, the universe was created out of pleasure!<<<<

He's one sick fuck then to get pleasure out of this realm of wrath and tears.

---------------------------------------------
If the infinite Creator wanted to communicate to all of us earthlings what He was like; how could He show us more clearly than becoming one of us? If He wanted to show us how serious the offense is, to break His moral law, how better than to forfeit His own life? And if He wanted to tell us how much He loves us, how could He do it more dramatic than dying for us?

We live in a world where we make the choices in life. The world God created was pure. It was humanity that brought down the problems we have today. As stated earlier, God did do something about it all. There IS a solution. But we have a choice. We are free to make that choice. But to defy God is an act of insanity. Still we would rather do so because we are rather comfy with our lives and don't want to change the way we live. So out of pride and our stubborn will, we CHOOSE to go our own way and take our chances on the outcome. Those who reject the ONLY means to heaven, choose to risk eternal damnation! Again, God is stating that there is a price for rebellion. And that price is death. But that price has been paid and all you have to do is accept it. How hard can that be? It's the logical choice! Why choose death when you can have it all?!

Just think it over? I had to! And I do not wish to PROVE anyone wrong! I just want to convince you all that I speak with good intentions and will for all of you! It is my hope and prayer that each of you will think about this carefully and make that decision for yourselves. Take it from me; I have faced death! You never know when your time is up! If you wait too long; your fate will remain in your hands! And what a scary prospect that will be! I would far rather be forgiven in the here and now than face a possible eternal fate by risking all for a short and vain life!



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If you will the rat race, your still a rat!

Hm. No, I won't take it from you. It just looks like you were in a terrible time and you shut down your brain and began to believe in something very comfortable. You didn't think about it. That's my opinion. I'm not paranoid or foolish enough to believe in some religion JUST to make sure I won't go to some hell. Shouldn't I believe in every religion to make sure? Hell no, I'm not crazy.

It doesn't matter if the world God originally created was pure. God knows everything and would know what humanity would do to it. There is nothing not planned for this god. And you just assume that something had to have caused this universe. If this god created everything and everybody then that includes the decisions and thoughts, the keyword here is everything. If that's right then I actually don't have free will now do I? Now you may say I get my thoughts and decisions from myself, but who created me again? God did, and this god ultimately created my thoughts and decisions.

>>>>Shouldn't I believe in every religion to make sure?<<<<<

All the other faiths direct our feeble attempts to reach God by good deeds or works. Christianity is unique! Instead God reaches out to humanity. The solution is there. Better than reaching atonement through endless and vain repetitions and mantras. Only one provides a permanent and sure solution. Comment on this???

>>>God knows everything and would know what humanity would do to it.<<<

Yes, in a sense that is true. He planted the snake there in the garden. He knew eventually humanity would fall. I think the Salvation plan was made long before the forbidden fruit was even consumed. STILL...
they had a choice. It's about the freedom of "choice"! He did not create the decisions we make. He created us in HIS IMAGE. We were created to decide life for ourselves. In essence, that makes us like gods does it not? We choose our fate. And we are living in the results of the poor choices that we have made.

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If you will the rat race, your still a rat!

Sure your religion can be unique and different up to a point. What's your point? For me it is one that I disagree with the most and it doesn't seem any better than another. Where do thoughts and decisions come from Onefinefeller? These things had to have been created by god. You can't escape this if you say god created everything. I don't need to be "reached" out by anything. And it is simply your opinion that it is the only one that provides a permanent and sure solution. Others feel exactly the same about their religion.

Oh I don't know... I'm getting them from a book by Josh McDowell. "The New Evidence That Demands a Verdict: Answering Questions Challenging Christians in the 21st Century"

Josh was a former athiest... the book is good. You ought to have it in your library.

Fred, I like you because you write good comments that make a person think. We might not agree on anything but your comments deserve some respect.

Other faiths believe this too... and are seriously deluded. Of course by stating this,... makes me very narrow-minded doesn't it? But once again... my logic, as ill at it seems, lies upon the historically accurate and prophetically sound Scriptures.

Many other beliefs are really sad... I pity their earnest attempts to find hope for an uncertain future. It seems bleak and dark to me. Please comment on this... We are getting into some interesting stuff here...

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If you will the rat race, your still a rat!

>>>>If the infinite Creator wanted to communicate to all of us earthlings what He was like; how could He show us more clearly than becoming one of us?<<<<

He didnt. None of us walk on water. None of us turn water to wine. None of us resurrect the dead.
Or, you can believe these are no different than other myths, and say, He was a man people later deified, like Caesar.
Or, you can use even better logic and say, Duh, its easier to make people listen by showing off power and being more impressive than they are. Not more poverty stricken, hungrier, weaker, and more down trodden.

>>>>If He wanted to show us how serious the offense is, to break His moral law, how better than to forfeit His own life?<<<<

LoL His moral Law. In the Bible? LoL
I can think of a better way. Kill people who broke it. What good is his life if hes immortal? He didnt lose anything. Its like saying I am an honored martyr to a cause because I volunteer dead skin cells.

>>>>And if He wanted to tell us how much He loves us, how could He do it more dramatic than dying for us?<<<<

Being strong for us. It takes more love to be strong for something than to sit around, bow to the enemies of what you love, and die by their hands.

>>>>>We live in a world where we make the choices in life. The world God created was pure. It was humanity that brought down the problems we have today.<<<<

Then his world isnt pure. We were a part of it, and were not...

>>>>As stated earlier, God did do something about it all. There IS a solution.<<<<

Does it include dying? Because you said were a flaw in his design.

>>>>But we have a choice. We are free to make that choice. But to defy God is an act of insanity.<<<<

Haha, or a sign of life. So I am insane for looking at the wife of my neighbor bent over in her garden, and thinking about impregnating her?

>>>>Still we would rather do so because we are rather comfy with our lives and don't want to change the way we live. So out of pride and our stubborn will, we CHOOSE to go our own way and take our chances on the outcome.<<<<<

Pride and will are a million times more divine than any virtue the Crucified advanced.

>>>>Those who reject the ONLY means to heaven, choose to risk eternal damnation!<<<<

What about us? You told me before people shouldnt believe out of fear, yet Christians' first argument is, But if you dont accept Jesus, you will burn in Hell. I cant wait until I die and ther are just lost souls waiting for Jesus, and the stronger spirits of unyielding individuals are whipping the souls of the Christians into a little corner.

>>>>Again, God is stating that there is a price for rebellion. And that price is death.<<<<

So by rebellion, you must mean living, since that is the inevitable outcome of all life? Being alive is a rebellion to Christians? No wonder getting an erection is such a sin to you. No wonder eating food and thinking, wow that was good, is such a mortal sin.

>>>>But that price has been paid and all you have to do is accept it. How hard can that be? It's the logical choice! Why choose death when you can have it all?!<<<<<

What is it all? You will die too, ass.

>>>>Just think it over? I had to!<<<

Try again.

>>>>And I do not wish to PROVE anyone wrong! I just want to convince you all that I speak with good intentions and will for all of you!<<<<<

You use an awful lot of Christian Science bullshit literature for someone not interested in proof.

>>>It is my hope and prayer that each of you will think about this carefully and make that decision for yourselves. Take it from me; I have faced death!<<<<

Me too. The idea of a cloud filled paradise never popped into my head.

>>>>You never know when your time is up! If you wait too long; your fate will remain in your hands! And what a scary prospect that will be!<<<<<

No its not. Who loves me more than me? Who wants to see me do better than myself? You say that out of fear and weakness and impotence.

>>>>I would far rather be forgiven in the here and now than face a possible eternal fate by risking all for a short and vain life!<<<<

Forgiveness by what? You said it yourself, you existed as a child to feel guilty for being alive. Thats what your parents beat and fingered into your head. Dont you think that helps to shape your perspective a bit? My parents didnt kick my ass for fun, and I say nothing has accused me of anything, so theres no point in seeking forgiveness for it.

>>>>If the infinite Creator wanted to communicate to all of us earthlings what He was like; how could He show us more clearly than becoming one of us?<<<<

>>>>He didnt. None of us walk on water. None of us turn water to wine. None of us resurrect the dead.
Or, you can believe these are no different than other myths, and say, He was a man people later deified, like Caesar.
Or, you can use even better logic and say, Duh, its easier to make people listen by showing off power and being more impressive than they are. Not more poverty stricken, hungrier, weaker, and more down trodden.<<<<

Only a supernatural God can create miracles. Again I must point to the historical witnesses at the time. People that were antagonistic towards the Christian faith. Even they achknowledge His acts. Just because you haven't witnessed them doesn't mean they never happened!

>>>>LoL His moral Law. In the Bible? LoL
I can think of a better way. Kill people who broke it. What good is his life if hes immortal? He didnt lose anything. Its like saying I am an honored martyr to a cause because I volunteer dead skin cells.<<<<

The situation became very unpleasant for God and so He had two choices. He could have exterminated them; the end, the plan failed. Or, out of His caring concern and love for them; provide a solution. And only God can defy death... God is eternal.

>>>>Does it include dying?<<<< This is the fruit of our poor judgement. There are two deaths here... physical and spiritual. Physical is temporary and fickle. Spiritual; our conscious souls... are spiritual. It is that spirit that enables our bodies to breathe, not the mind as some would have you to believe. For what makes the mind think? It is a miracle life exists, period. Think about it...

>>>>What about us? You told me before people shouldnt believe out of fear, yet Christians' first argument is, But if you dont accept Jesus, you will burn in Hell.<<<<

Well... it should be of love and desire not fear. But as with anything... there are consequences for the choices we make.

>>>>rebellion?<<<< I mean rebellion against morality as based in the Torah or rather, Mosaic writings.

>>>Me too. The idea of a cloud filled paradise never popped into my head.<<<

Not exactly... Revelation teaches that everything will be restored like it once was, in Eden, at least for a while. Like an age. Then all will be made new again later on.

>>>>No its not. Who loves me more than me? Who wants to see me do better than myself?<<<

Humm do you really love life and yourself? Most people hate it here... life with all it's problems! Sounds like circular reasoning to me...

>>>forgiveness<<< for breaking the moral code set up. We all screwed up. Are you suggesting you are perfect?

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If you will the rat race, your still a rat!

>>>>Only a supernatural God can create miracles.<<<<<

Great. That means he didnt come here as one of us, which is what I was saying.

>>>>Again I must point to the historical witnesses at the time. People that were antagonistic towards the Christian faith. Even they achknowledge His acts.<<<<

They are the same people who saw Thor ride across the sky, Horus come forth from rivers and kill, and Jupiter strike men with his hammer. So what?

>>>>Just because you haven't witnessed them doesn't mean they never happened!<<<<

YOu said there would be no better way than for God to come to Earth in the guise of a Jewish slave 2000 years ago. If hes trying to be as effective as you claim, he should do something we could all relate to and feel.

>>>>The situation became very unpleasant for God and so He had two choices. He could have exterminated them; the end, the plan failed.<<<<

Didnt he fail when they ate from the tree of Life?

>>>>Or, out of His caring concern and love for them; provide a solution. And only God can defy death... God is eternal.<<<<

Thats my point. Dont say hes so wonderful for dying, then say death is irrelevant to him. Which is, exactly as I said, like saying I sacrificed dead skin cells, which means as little to me as a mortal life would mean to a God.

>>>>This is the fruit of our poor judgement. There are two deaths here... physical and spiritual.<<<<

I think this is a product of your back tracking and poor arguments.

>>>>>Physical is temporary and fickle. Spiritual; our conscious souls... are spiritual. It is that spirit that enables our bodies to breathe, not the mind as some would have you to believe. For what makes the mind think? It is a miracle life exists, period. Think about it<<<<<

I did. It occured to me that bears breathe too. Do they have a soul?

>>>>Well... it should be of love and desire not fear. But as with anything... there are consequences for the choices we make.<<<<

Existing isnt a choice I made, and there is no consequence to it. I owe your idea of God nothing, and will die without even thinking about him, let alone wondering if I should fear him.
Communism should be implemented out of love, not envy, hatred and resentment, but so what? An idea is only as good as its fruit.

>>>>I mean rebellion against morality as based in the Torah or rather, Mosaic writings.<<<<<

Right, life. You said for rebelling, we now die. But since death is an inevitable part of life, rebellion would have to mean, being alive.

>>>>Not exactly... Revelation teaches that everything will be restored like it once was, in Eden, at least for a while. Like an age. Then all will be made new again later on.<<<<

My point is, I have faced death and thought nothing of fear or the Creator. I didnt fear anything beyond.

>>>>Humm do you really love life and yourself?<<<<<

Yes.

>>>>Most people hate it here... life with all it's problems! Sounds like circular reasoning to me...<<<<

They hate it because they are lied to and believe false things. They are taught to expect a lot and when it doesnt come, they get disappointed. Also, people look to higher powers to fix things, which also doesnt deliver. I dont. I understand life is cruel and dark. Knowing that helps you to concentrate on the better things and be happy for their existence.

>>>>for breaking the moral code set up. We all screwed up. Are you suggesting you are perfect?<<<<

Set up. Youre being circuitious again. You define right by what the Bible says. Then when I ask you why you do so you say, because the Bible is right. Thats not logical. I am suggesting man is perfect, and nothing ever accused me of being otherwise, so why should I invent somethign to apologize to?

>>>>Only a supernatural God can create miracles.<<<<<
Great. That means he didnt come here as one of us, which is what I was saying.<<<

God - Spirit... came as man... flesh... Spirit within a man... Man dies... but the Spirit lives! Makes sense to me....

>>>>Again I must point to the historical witnesses at the time. People that were antagonistic towards the Christian faith. Even they achknowledge His acts.<<<<

They are the same people who saw Thor ride across the sky, Horus come forth from rivers and kill, and Jupiter strike men with his hammer. So what?<<<<

They were credible witnesses. Serving under decree of Caesar to document historical events. Not to be construed with mythology.

>>>YOu said there would be no better way than for God to come to Earth in the guise of a Jewish slave 2000 years ago. If hes trying to be as effective as you claim, he should do something we could all relate to and feel.<<<

He did... read about them sometime when you get the chance. I am not aware that he was a slave. The Romans at that period of time occupied the land but allowed the Jews to govern their own land. Jesus was a teacher of the Essene Order and was quite popular at the time. The Romans allowed Him to teach... and so did the Jewish authorities...

>>>>The situation became very unpleasant for God and so He had two choices. He could have exterminated them; the end, the plan failed.<<<<
Didnt he fail when they ate from the tree of Life?<<<<

Not really... keep in mind He allowed Satan; the snake; to tempt them. He knew ahead of time of the possible outcome. And he had a plan to resolve it and defeat Satan at his own game.

>>>Thats my point. Dont say hes so wonderful for dying, then say death is irrelevant to him...<<<

It is indeed! But... it has great revelance to us!

>>>It occured to me that bears breathe too. Do they have a soul?<<<

First... humanity was created in the image of God. Humanity was created last I believe... might need to check on that though. This can coincide with our fossil history.

The reason animals may not have a soul is because they can not discern moral issues but only from instinct. I am a little fuzzy on that topic though... I am open to suggestions here.

>>>Right, life. You said for rebelling, we now die. But since death is an inevitable part of life, rebellion would have to mean, being alive.<<<

Kinda... we were born selfish. Ask any mother is babies cry and mature... with some kind of selfish tendencies within them. It is the fallen world that we live in. Picture a smoke filled bar for a moment. You can enter and do absolutely nothing... but walk out with the smell of smoke on your clothes.

But there comes a time in one's life when one attains the enlightenment necessary to form judgements and ideals. Parents mold those opinions most of the time... still we are all inherently selfish... and to be that way goes against the grain of the ten commandments for example. The point is that we were born to literally be damned... yes... but there are some exceptions to that rule. Children under the age of reason are still innocent.

Now this position will lead to other perspectives and opinions... but I will try to stick to the narrow confines for now.

>>>My point is, I have faced death and thought nothing of fear or the Creator. I didnt fear anything beyond.<<<

That's because... "in my opinion"... you are not spiritually developed in this area. You may have been naive. That's not ignorance... it means that you just didn't know. No harm in that. And there shouldn't be any fear yet... because no one is in hell right now. This opinion will lead to other areas of discussion... but I will wait to see if we go there first.

>>>They hate it because they are lied to and believe false things. They are taught to expect a lot and when it doesnt come, they get disappointed. Also, people look to higher powers to fix things, which also doesnt deliver. I dont. I understand life is cruel and dark. Knowing that helps you to concentrate on the better things and be happy for their existence.<<<

This comment is good! But... life is so meaningless if there is no future??? I hear you here.... and agree.

>>>I am suggesting man is perfect...<<<

Since when has man ever been perfect? I am slightly amused here... Man repeats history and forget what one learns. If we were so perfect why do we fight each other in wars all the time? Look at what humanism has done since the separation of church and state. Crime and suicide rates rising at astonishing rates! If all is so good; why do we have kids killing each other in schools today?

On a different subject... I actually enjoyed this discussion! Thanks for your input!



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If you will the rat race, your still a rat!

first of all guys, it was the tree of knowledge, not the tree of life.

secondly i don't think it was a sin to eat the fruit. the tree of knowledge of good and evil could also be translated right and wrong. you are basically looking at the reference for how civilization got started; the reason it is viewed as sin is because the only one in biblical terms capable of judging right and wrong was god.

and the miracles of christ like raising the dead,

many people who were in comas were thought to be dead. lazarus could have been in a coma which would explain why his flesh was not rotting.

but hey a man who can raise the dead can do anything and through word of mouth usually will.

don't get me wrong i think jesus was a great man, son of god i doubt.

and the reason god doesn't reveal himself to us is so we don't become dependant upon him. we have to learn not how to exist but how to live.

i'm sure everyone of you has heard if not made the comment about the poor little rich kid whose not going to learn anything in life because his parents take care of everything for him.

same thing.

I skim through reading the posts and replys, and fair enough, you're exploring posibilities. My favourite logic for faith is that:

I place my faith in my ability to reason, and I cannot reason to choose a faith.

For me, that wipes out half what was said.

>>>>>God - Spirit... came as man... flesh... Spirit within a man... Man dies... but the Spirit lives! Makes sense to me....<<<<

YOure straying from the argument with irrelevant things I wont argue with. Back to the topic, you said God came as one of us. Then said he performed miracles. I said, he came as something better, or he wouldnt be doing miracles. Humans dont do those things. (Actually they do, thats the thing. None of the powers you list as divine are kept from Man)

"They are the same people who saw Thor ride across the sky, Horus come forth from rivers and kill, and Jupiter strike men with his hammer. So what?"

>>>>>They were credible witnesses. Serving under decree of Caesar to document historical events. Not to be construed with mythology.<<<<

Why not? You say that because you believe it. A believer in Pharaohs would tell you not to confuse Hebrew fairy tales with the truth of the Pharaoh. Yours is a Hebrew myth. How is it different than men who say they saw Aphrodite turn a woman into a spider?

>>>>He did... (come to Earth as something we could all relate to and feel) read about them sometime when you get the chance.<<<<

I cant relate to, nor do I wish to ever understand, the mentality of an impoverished desert walking Jewish man. Not many can. Thats why Christianity fails to look like Christianity wherever its practiced.

>>>>>I am not aware that he was a slave.<<<

I dont think he was either. I just say that mockingly because Roman masters executed him in a manner reserved for slaves.

>>>>The Romans at that period of time occupied the land but allowed the Jews to govern their own land. Jesus was a teacher of the Essene Order and was quite popular at the time. The Romans allowed Him to teach... and so did the Jewish authorities...<<<<

And?

>>>Not really... keep in mind He allowed Satan; the snake; to tempt them. He knew ahead of time of the possible outcome. And he had a plan to resolve it and defeat Satan at his own game.<<<<

If this is all God's grand design and he knows exactly whats up, why did he create Satan in the first place? Did he know Satan would think him an overbearing repressed psychopathic megalomoniacal Puritan and renounce him? Did he realize fighting Satan would take millennia and not be anywhere near complete until the end times when he is finally cast out of Heaven?

>>>It is indeed! But... it (Death) has great revelance to us!

I dont care. You said, What better way to tell us he loves us than to give his life? Well, since his life is worth nothing, because he is immortal, there are probably a lot of things he could have given worth more, thus showing his sacrifice in our name. I told you already, and this is a perfect analogy, its like honoring me for sacrificing dead skin cells.

>>>>First... humanity was created in the image of God. Humanity was created last I believe... might need to check on that though. This can coincide with our fossil history.<<<<<

It can coincide with the science of the fossil record as well. If it didnt, how would you spin it this time?

>>>>The reason animals may not have a soul is because they can not discern moral issues but only from instinct.<<<<

Tell me a lasting moral shared by all people that isnt programmed in our instincts. There are none.

>>>>I am a little fuzzy on that topic though... I am open to suggestions here.<<<,

I suggest you read Desmond Morris, the Naked Ape.

>>>>Kinda... we were born selfish. Ask any mother is babies cry and mature... with some kind of selfish tendencies within them.<<<<

And? Why is that bad? A selfish streak doesnt mean we only care about ourselves. It means we acknowledge that without our own life, there would be no point to loving or sacrificing. If we didnt care if we lived or died, why would we care if our neighbor did?

>>>It is the fallen world that we live in. Picture a smoke filled bar for a moment. You can enter and do absolutely nothing... but walk out with the smell of smoke on your clothes.<<<<,

I prefer to think of it this way. Say youre an annoying self-righteous vegetarian, and dont like the smell of meat. Then you go into a steakhouse and come out smelling like meat. Nothing wrong with meat unles you go in there already hating it. Theres nothing wrong with a lot of what you call sin unless you already decided the inverse.

>>>>But there comes a time in one's life when one attains the enlightenment necessary to form judgements and ideals.<<<<

Like the super enlightened Overman opinion of yours "DO what this Jewish book says" right?

>>>>Parents mold those opinions most of the time... still we are all inherently selfish... and to be that way goes against the grain of the ten commandments for example.<<<<<

The Ten Commandments are quite envious of the strong, and life in general. The Ten Commandments go against moral codes ten thousand years older than them, so what?

>>>The point is that we were born to literally be damned... yes... but there are some exceptions to that rule.<<<<

Of course. Only people like yourself who were admittedly beaten into submission and broken could think themselves needing forgiveness for being alive. I was never made to feel guilty for life. Neither is any creature worthy of the name Man. Dude, you feel you need to be forgiven for being alive. Do you know how ridiculous that sounds? How can you not think that is a product of your upbrining?

>>>>>Children under the age of reason are still innocent.<<<<

Maybe our innocence is more valuable than reason.

>>>>.That's because... "in my opinion"... you are not spiritually developed in this area. You may have been naive. That's not ignorance... it means that you just didn't know.<<<<<

So because I was prepared to die without fear, Im ignorant and underdeveloped? But you, who tremble at the idea of breaking a rule in a three thousand year old fairy tale, are more developed? You, who admittedly live your life on spiritual knee, wishing you were never born and wondering what can be done to make a miserable god happy, are more developed? Because you read scary stories that are just extensions of the things your parents instilled in you (hatred of yourself and guilt)

>>>No harm in that.<<<<

Youre fuckin right no harm in that.

>>>>And there shouldn't be any fear yet... because no one is in hell right now. This opinion will lead to other areas of discussion... but I will wait to see if we go there first.<<<<

If going to Hell keeps me away from you and your God with holes in his feet, Good. Id rather be with an Angel of Light who refused to kneel to the whim of a psycopathic and malevolent jealous madman with a son nailed to a tree.

>>>Since when has man ever been perfect?<<,

Since his design made him master of the world.

>>>>I am slightly amused here... Man repeats history and forget what one learns. If we were so perfect why do we fight each other in wars all the time?<<<<<

Whats wrong with fighting wars? They fight wars in the Bible anyway, so shut up.

>>>>Look at what humanism has done since the separation of church and state. Crime and suicide rates rising at astonishing rates!<<<<

That has more to do with the policy of making us feel guilty for out inherent divinity. Particularly among White populations, where the Christian concept of self hatred is still alive and nourished.

>>>>If all is so good; why do we have kids killing each other in schools today?<<<<,

Because of seething guilt and resentment.

Lost Mind

There were two trees in the garden not just the one. Genesis 2:9

>>>secondly i don't think it was a sin to eat the fruit. the tree of knowledge of good and evil could also be translated right and wrong. you are basically looking at the reference for how civilization got started; the reason it is viewed as sin is because the only one in biblical terms capable of judging right and wrong was god.<<<

See Deut. 30:15 for clarification. See also 2Tim. 1:9 & Proverbs 10:16. The eating of the fruit brought spiritual separation from God first and then physical death later. The tree of life was lo longer available to them and is not revealed again in the Scriptures till Revelation. Gen:3:24

>>>many people who were in comas were thought to be dead. lazarus could have been in a coma which would explain why his flesh was not rotting.<<< That is not true. See Jn:11:17 especially verse 39 and 44. You should check out the method of how the custom of the day wrapped their dead. It is quite interesting. Note in vs 39 how there was a bad smell in the tomb? That is the result of decomposing flesh.

>>>but hey a man who can raise the dead can do anything and through word of mouth usually will.<<<

John 11:37 had skeptics in the crowd. See Jesus' own words when He stated that the act was performed so that they might believe. If the act was faked, they would still not have believed would they? Note in verse 45 the results. Note especially his enemies comments in verse 47 and 48. They were afraid that their authority would be stripped away from them which led to the plot to kill Jesus.

>>>and the reason god doesn't reveal himself to us is so we don't become dependant upon him. we have to learn not how to exist but how to live.<<<

See Acts 1:7. The power of the Spirit of God has been restored again for the Believers. Now instead of Jesus performing the miracles, now the Church performed them as well! It was this act that enabled the early faith to expand throughout the world!



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If you will the rat race, your still a rat!

Defiant Exile

I will get back to you later on this... I'm out of time and have to go out of town in the morning on business. Catch you on Wednesday.

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If you will the rat race, your still a rat!

>>>YOure straying from the argument with irrelevant things I wont argue with. Back to the topic, you said God came as one of us. Then said he performed miracles. I said, he came as something better, or he wouldnt be doing miracles. Humans dont do those things. (Actually they do, thats the thing. None of the powers you list as divine are kept from Man)<<<

I agree... but it takes a spiritual power to perform a miraculous act...right? (see Luke 10:19)

>>>>>They were credible witnesses. Serving under decree of Caesar to document historical events. Not to be construed with mythology.<<<<

>>>Why not? You say that because you believe it. A believer in Pharaohs would tell you not to confuse Hebrew fairy tales with the truth of the Pharaoh. Yours is a Hebrew myth. How is it different than men who say they saw Aphrodite turn a woman into a spider?<<<

Good point! I will have to study this further and get back with you on Wednesday.

>>>Thats why Christianity fails to look like Christianity wherever its practiced.<<<

Yup! I agree in this regards to a point. I think though that many people may not understand the Christian concept. Many say they are Christians but have never even opened a Bible in their entire lives. I figured that a Christian meant a follower of Christ... I am amazed at how many different perspectives people have with this. It's no wonder outsiders are perplexed and confused!

I question why you would call him "impoverished"? Could you explain this to me?

>>>If this is all God's grand design and he knows exactly whats up, why did he create Satan in the first place?<<<

Apparently Satan was given a free will like us... His name was called "Lucifer" He was a glorious angel with a great talent in music. But pride can go to one's head. He wanted to take over...

>>>Did he know Satan would think him an overbearing repressed psychopathic megalomoniacal Puritan and renounce him?
Did he realize fighting Satan would take millennia and not be anywhere near complete until the end times when he is finally cast out of Heaven?<<<

Actually he was cast out of heaven before humanity was created. Luke 10:18. That would explain his presence in the garden right?

>>>I dont care. You said, What better way to tell us he loves us than to give his life? Well, since his life is worth nothing, because he is immortal, there are probably a lot of things he could have given worth more, thus showing his sacrifice in our name. I told you already, and this is a perfect analogy, its like honoring me for sacrificing dead skin cells.<<<

I don't understand this statement...could you explain it better somehow?

>>>Tell me a lasting moral shared by all people that isnt programmed in our instincts. There are none.<<<

The ten commandments? Animals are instinctively selfish... as result of the fall. People can choose...

>>>I suggest you read Desmond Morris, the Naked Ape.<<<

Fair enough... I will look into it.

>>>And? Why is that bad? A selfish streak doesnt mean we only care about ourselves. It means we acknowledge that without our own life, there would be no point to loving or sacrificing. If we didnt care if we lived or died, why would we care if our neighbor did?<<<

I don't understand... can you elaborate?

>>>Like the super enlightened Overman opinion of yours "DO what this Jewish book says" right?<<< Not necessarily. There are other references as well. The Hammurapi's Code provides the foundation upon which some of the doctrinal references in the Scriptures was built. (and there are other's as well)

>>>Of course. Only people like yourself who were admittedly beaten into submission and broken could think themselves needing forgiveness for being alive. I was never made to feel guilty for life. Neither is any creature worthy of the name Man. Dude, you feel you need to be forgiven for being alive. Do you know how ridiculous that sounds? How can you not think that is a product of your upbrining?<<<

I think you don't understand the biblical concept of forgiveness. However... I admit that my upbringing had driven me to seek solutions. Had I not have suffered, I would not have made the effort to study this stuff. Read Isaiah 64:6. This is the principle for the forgiveness I am getting at.

>>>That has more to do with the policy of making us feel guilty for out inherent divinity. Particularly among White populations, where the Christian concept of self hatred is still alive and nourished.<<<

That's the most bigoted response I have heard from you... what has that got to do with humanism?

>>>Because of seething guilt and resentment.<<<

Stemmed from the lack of respect and morals in our schools.



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If you will the rat race, your still a rat!

you see one fine feller, i don't believe in satan;

i don't believe in michael or gabriel or the heavenly choir.

i think ALL religious texts should come with a disclaimer that says some elements of the story have changed to add dramatic effect.

and i can answer this too by saying man is perfect and has always been perfect along with everything else in this universe, perfection is not necessarily always good.

you can be perfect at being awful, ain't that right defiant?

and i see god as being perfect, which means when he makes chili he doesn't come back an hour later and say "it's still missing something"

i believe this was all created for us, and others throughout the universe.

and that it is ours to do with as we see fit;

with a meaning of life to ensure your continued existance throughout time, and it seems like such a simple concept, we just have to get along long enough to survive.

i think we are failing miserably at it though;

but it is our failure; not gods.

and i can guarantee you there's a civilization somewhere out there that has mastered this little gift called existance.

where they've learned to co-exist without morality laws and threats.

it's what i like to believe, makes god infallible and mankind responsible and there's really no way you can argue that without taking some of gods power or our freewill.

The biggest problem I found with christianity and indeed any other religion, is that there's no logical reason to have faith, or any type of faith. It's just something you must do. Which to me, seems weak and pointless.

"Believe this, because I said so."

Stupid, eh. But they all say that.

Pointless for some... but it may cost you everything if your wrong... if I am right... it will cost you nothing to join the club.

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If you will the rat race, your still a rat!

And then you say Christianity isnt based on a fear of life and death?

being a christian onefinefeller, you must believe the book of revelations which says the church will become the whore of babylon and fall from grace from gods eyes.

thou shalt have no other gods before me(singular) yet worship a trinity as a whole. pray to a virgin, partake in idol worship with the cross. how many churches have a cross on their steeple but no jesus attached to it.

glorifying an instrument of persecution.

I suppose Lost Mind that that "Church" can refer to two issues. The Catholic Church... is one, and the other may be the worldly church under the "New World Order" that is yet to come...

What if its both? What if its neither? What if its mistranslated?
' If I had a lot of evidence from Revealations that supported Hitler as the army of God, the USSR and the Allies as the Beast, and the forces of light as National Socialism, would you still put so much faith in yor own interpretation?

would it please you to know the russians are the kings of the north which invade israel,

the arabs are the kings of the south who are betrayed by the kings of the north and fall to them,

while what is called an act of god and a miracle keeps the kings of the north from taking israel,

the kings of the east are china which mount a 250 million man army and march towards israel(check the numbers on china's numbers for military forces, fucking incredible)

meanwhile the last great empire a revival of the roman empire, a 10 nation confederacy led by the beast thought to be the european union(a united europe relatively new started by the treaty of rome) and american joint effort,

i consider it more to be nato, the beast comes out of the sea(North Atlantic Treaty Organization), and it has 10 nations which provide the military forces of nato.

It is incredible! Further... I think it's a 12 or 13 nation confederacy in which one king will eat two or three of them making it ten nations. Did you perhaps read today's headlines in Fortune online? Expect a cashless society in 2004! Another biblical prophecy fulfilled! The 666 number is the UPC # for those who don't know. If anyone wants to know why, just ask me for the details. Once everyone has a number as such it will only be a single step from that famed "mark" mentioned in Revelation. The UPC code is on everything just about. You can't buy or sell without that mark now! Imagine a cashless society! No more social security cards. Just a chip embedded in a card. Heck, why have cards at all... why not a chip under the skin on your wrist or forehead?! Easy for a scanner to pick you off at just about anywhere you go! It's here folks! The prophecies of the Bible is still very powerful today... we are in the last days... won't be long till your leader will arise from the vast seas of society. Enjoy him for a while, and like Hitler, he will betray you! 2004! Remember that!

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If you will the rat race, your still a rat!

Hitler didnt betray anyone. He fought to the death against everything he said he'd fight against.

Please, did the Bible really say anything about computer chips in the hand? A lot of fanatics like you really do try and look too hard for these sort of things. People have always thought it was the end times. Not a different situation here.

No, this is undoubtedly the end of this cycle. The Bible does speak of not being able to buy food or have a home without carying the mark of the Beast...Guess whose likely to starve then...

haven't heard of benelux?

three countries (belgium, netherlands, and luxembourg) that act as one.

the upc symbol is not the number of the beast.

you're talking of people who dealt with numerology,

the greek alpha-numeric representation of 666 is xes, notice sex backwards,

or how about this defintion
http://www.revelationjesuschrist.com/chapters/ch-01/intro.htm

don't think a christian though would like to hear the following of jesus is succumbing to the mark.

but the bible was written by jews who don't believe in the messiah,

at least the old testament and revelations was written by jews.

If you look at a upc symbol you will see a series of three catagories that separate the beginning segment "SKU" from the end segment "classification" In most cases the divider spaces at the start, the middle, and the end are longer than the other spaces. These are the sixes. Find a upc code with a six in it. Now compare it with the divider spaces and you will see that they match. The 666 is clearly noted in the divider spaces. "6" beginning, "6" middle, "6" ending. The lines will always be longer than the other lines. This is hard to describe without a picture to refer to. But all the upc codes have them, though not always in the order described above. Keep in mind that the scanner does not read the black lines but the width of the white between the black lines. This is reflected by to the CPU.

first the actual greek translation.

"let him who hath understanding CALCULATE the number of the beast; for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666"

"When the risen Jesus (8880) is superimposed over the 6x6 gridwork of the Magic Square of the Sun some amazing things happen. First, the circled numbers on the magic square form the Greek letter �X� which is the �sign� of Christ.

Second, the circumference of each circle by calculation is 1480 units, the exact gematria value of the title Christ (CristoV = 1480)!

Now add the sum of all the numbers in the field of the magic square of the sun (666) to the sum of the numbers in the twelve Christ circles (222). The sum is the number of Jesus (888)!

Finally, the diagonal of each square that holds a Christ circle by calculation is �666� units!!"

the upc thing is a crock of shit.

"no one could buy or sell SAVE HE THAT HAD THE MARK OF THE BEAST."

the consumer would have the mark, not the product.

FOR IT IS THE NUMBER OF A MAN ISN'T IT.

i've also heard it said the the credit cards issued by eu banks start with a 3 number code as opposed to the american 4 number,

those three numbers on all cards are supposedly 666.

don't have a eu credit card to prove it, but think it's about as true as the upc thing.

It was just a theory... introduced some 20 years ago. It is on everything... I wonder what will happen after we have a cashless society. Will we need identity cards? If we had palm scans or retina scans... credit card theft could become obsolete. Think of the billions of dollars that would be saved! Why worry about social security numbers? We could all get a mark that is not visable to the eye and any computer could know immediately who we are? Is this possible? Can this happen? I say yes it can! Perhaps not in my generation, perhaps in the 20 years or so. As more and more people become biblically illiterate... acceptance of this idea will take shape. It's just a matter of time...

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If you will the rat race, your still a rat!