"Imagine a being more perfect than any other you can conceive. If you understand that sentence, you must have some concept of such a being; otherwise the sentence would be incomprehensible. (Just as the sentece 'Imagine a unicorn' only makes sence if you have some concept of 'a unicorn.') Now, is this being you imagine (call it 'B') simply a fantasy? Anselm thought not. For if B does not exist, then you could imagive a more perfect being, namely a being just like B but who also exists. For obviously a real good is more perfect than an imaginary good. Thus the assumption that B is a fantasy must be false, for if it were true we could imagine a more perfect being, which contradicts the hypothesis. So B exists, and Anselm defines it as God. In other words, God is precisely that being we take to be the most perfect imaginable. If we had merely sought after the most perfect existing being, we would not have arrived at Anselm's conclusion, for we wouldn't have been able to prove that what we found is God. The key to his proof lies in the concept of being as a kind of perfection in itself, not in any prior experience of its existence."

When you said imagine a being more perfect than we could concieve, I couldnt. I pictured one I could concieve of. You cant concieve of something you cant concieve...that sound too revolutionary for anyone?

it's amazing how long Ive been on the net ( 5 or so yearsish ) been involved in discussions of this sort & only recently at the ebginning of this year heard these points . To make it more odd it was an atheist friend which explained it to me . But Ive never understod Anslem's idea . Can you explain this part to me ?


---- For if B does not exist, then you could imagive a more perfect being, namely a being just like B but who also exists. -----

because I can think of unicorns , me being really cool & hunted by lots of beautiful females . But Im afraid it's all fantasy ^^ So can you explain this part ?

The thing I never liked about religion is how you are not the center of you life (at least with the more devout people) you are always looking up to something else. It's like you detest yourself so much you had to find something that you could say was perfect - god. In a way the same applies to your heaven - you dislike the earth and the way we live so you created an afterlife to hope for. Now this wouldn't be so bad, you know having something to look forward to except you say you have to chastise yourself now in order to get there. Of course you don't see it as that.....

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I don't want the dreams you try to sell...this disease I gave to my self

>>>>The thing I never liked about religion is how you are not the center of you life<<<<

But youre not.

>>>>you are always looking up to something else. It's like you detest yourself so much you had to find something that you could say was perfect - god.<<<<<

Hey, lets play another round of regurgitate public school level bullshit. Dont you think there aer religions other than Occidental Monotheism?

Everything I do is in one way or another for me, thus I am the center of my life. For example me not supporting Facsism Defiant because it is (according to you) for the greater good of man - that means fuck all to me if it means sacrificing my small pleasures in life because the center of my life is ME not humanity.
---i'm a poet and I didn't know it---



Even with other religions it is the same. There is always a 'better' being. Someone to bow down to. What is wrong with accepting what we are, and to quit trying to be something else.

hey astro boy im glad u take an interest. what its saying is this:

B is God, according to Anselm. At first, when you imagine B, thats all it is, an imaginary figure in your mind that is perfect. But, wouldn't this God be EVEN MORE PERFECT if it existed? The answer would probably be yes--wouldn't an existing perfect being be better than an imaginary perfect being? So, therefore, the first B (the one you imagined) must not be the most perfect being--the real perfect B would be the existing version of the B you imagined. Get it now, hopefully?

Neway, the book i got this from went on to give rebuttles against this proof. For example if this proof holds true, that would mean that anything perfect you can imagine actually exists somewhere. Take the unicorn for example. Do the same exercise you just did with the God thing, but instead of imagining the perfect being, imagine the perfect unicorn. Now, you should have a picture of a perfect unicorn in your head. But wouldn't that unicorn be MUCH MORE PERFECT if it existed? So therefore the unicorn you imagine isn't really the perfect unicorn, the perfect unicorn is a unicorn which is perfect in every way AND exists. So, you could go on and on with the perfect computer, the perfect dog, the perfect guitar, the perfect anything.

Of course... later in this book it discusses a philosophy in which people believe that there is "a perfect chair" from which all other chairs are derived. I couldn't find the exact passage, but I think it might have something to do with the "noumenal" world and the "thing in itself" if you want to try searchin for those in a search engine. newayz, hope u get it now

peace

>>>>B is God, according to Anselm. At first, when you imagine B, thats all it is, an imaginary figure in your mind that is perfect. But, wouldn't this God be EVEN MORE PERFECT if it existed?<<<<

No. In your perspective of perfect, the world around your imagined creature would probably thnk so too. In reality it would grow up to defend itself from them and probably lose some of its Christian competetive perfect edge. How can you define perfect as something you cant even imagine? Are you that without love that youve never seen a moment of perfection in someone you know?

>>>>The answer would probably be yes--wouldn't an existing perfect being be better than an imaginary perfect being?<<<<

No. Especially since there is none.

>>>> So, therefore, the first B (the one you imagined) must not be the most perfect being--the real perfect B would be the existing version of the B you imagined. Get it now, hopefully?<<<<<

Where in there does that prove the thing exists. Youre saying, incorrectly, that if I think of a perfect meal, if it existed, it would be better...Why? Actually there would probably be some detail I forgot to define as perfect that in creation was made average. If I didnt thnk to consider the perfect temperature, it might look fuckin great, but be cold.

"No. Especially since there is none"

defiant, this is your problem, you close your eyes to possibilies.

let's use arthur c. clarkes reasoning here.

anything can be proven to exist and therefore truth,

nothing can be proven to not exist and therefore false,

only improbable, not impossible.

there's a big universe out there, and by your own words you've only occupied a little corner in new jersey your whole life.

Is there cheese on the moon? Nope, that can be proven.
Is there an asteroid made of chocolate cake? Nope, also proven.
Are there people who stand 900 feet tall? Nope, proven.
I can prove a lot of things dont exist.