I respect.. or try to respect people for believing in this crap...wiccanism,christianity,muslims,um whatever the crap, but cant you see its all blatant bullshit?????????????
People are scared to die.
People want something to believe in, so they arent So scared when they DO die.
Its so they have a reason to live, a point to life.
Now I know that the meaning of life is to reproduce, and bring up the offsping successfully before you die, so you can in a way live on forever inside them, and bring new people into the world that can contribute and bring new ideas to the world so we can move on, and live on.
The best minds in the field are prepared to make an educated guess at who invented Yahweh,evidence points to a woman who was living around 1000 BC,Bathsheba, the Hittite that slept with david. God is a literary character.As is Jesus,mostly made up by st.paul and whoever wrote the gospel of st mark.
Thers enough fucking chemistry in this stupid society to show how the world began.
Atheism is the only sense, im sorry if the truth hurts. Well nothing is.. not atheism.

i like verbal masturbation from all you americans... so hit me you christian bastards.

I agree with most of that, but you cant deny Jesus existed in history. Doesnt mean he was a god, he was just a Jewish slave with a gift for speaking and a mind sharp enough to know what the rabble wanted to hear.
If you believe so much in Natural Law and evolution, as I do, its considered a religion. Everyone has some kind of God, something that defines right and wrong for them, and is the measure of things.

You can not deny Jesus existed. Josephus Flavius was a Roman Historian that wrote of Jesus from an antagonous point of view. Josephus translated most of the Jewish Old Testament into Latin under the decree of Caesar Augustus?? so that the Romans could understand the faith.

It took me 4 months to read his stuff. I suppose the Wise Defiant One can polish it off in the day. He is like the blind leading the blind. Let us not forget the Roman persecutions of the early Christian church. Thousands died as martyers rather than give honor to the Roman deities. They gave an example of fearless death. You would not do the same. As the ole cliche goes; "There are no atheists in foxholes."

Further, the result of the persecutions only strenghened the resolve. The small ideologies of the early Christian church spread like wildfire. In the end... Constantine became the only Christian emporer (sic). It was not long after that that poor Rome fell from within. Old foundations erode. New foundations were built. The aftermath led to the society of which we live in.

Sometimes I wonder about the dreams and visions of your next Aeon. Perhaps it will happen... but only so long as people such as I keep silent about the lies that your friends would have us believe. I wonder who is brainwashing whom? I have not heard an intelligent word from you children except mockeries and jokes about stuff that some of you admit that you know little about!

There were the hilarious laughter amongst the foolish that believed the earth was flat. Christopher Columbus; a self-professed Christian sought to prove it was round. The mockers laughed... and in time they were silenced. You laugh... but I have not heard an intelligent rebuttal yet. Where is your facts? You dish out remarks that you can not substain. I can, and if anyone out there still stands with this company of fools; then you will be like them as well. An old proverb from Solomon goes something like this: "If you associate with fools, you become a fool. If you associate with the wise, you become wise."

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If you will the rat race, your still a rat!

>>>>You can not deny Jesus existed. Josephus Flavius was a Roman Historian that wrote of Jesus from an antagonous point of view.<<<<<

I exist. You can acknowledge existence without saying someone is the son of a Jewish God.

>>>>I suppose the Wise Defiant One can polish it off in the day.<<<<<

What day is The day? Aer you referring to reading the Old Testament. It would take me forever, its some of the most boring and redundant shit Ive ever seen.

>>>>>He is like the blind leading the blind. Let us not forget the Roman persecutions of the early Christian church.<<<<<

Let us not. We will need models to look back on when we again construct lions' dens.

>>>>>Thousands died as martyers rather than give honor to the Roman deities. They gave an example of fearless death.<<<<<

Others even stood by and watched with a twisted sense of honor as their kids were put to death. That seems to violate any sense of natural order I can think of. Id renounce my existence to save my kids, but I suppose paying homage to a Jewish god in the sky with holes in his feet is more important.

>>>>You would not do the same. As the ole cliche goes; "There are no atheists in foxholes."<<<<

God was the last thing on my mind when anarchists tried to kill me.

>>>>>Further, the result of the persecutions only strenghened the resolve. The small ideologies of the early Christian church spread like wildfire. In the end... Constantine became the only Christian emporer (sic).<<<<<

That was a political move. Where in his early church, of which he was the head, did you see Christian "virtues" of humility and renucniation of struggle?

>>>>>It was not long after that that poor Rome fell from within. Old foundations erode. New foundations were built. The aftermath led to the society of which we live in.<<<<

"When Rome fell into the hands of Jesus, a Race of dominators sank."- Mussolini sometimes stuff that sinks reemerges. I have my fingers crossed.

>>>>>Sometimes I wonder about the dreams and visions of your next Aeon. Perhaps it will happen... but only so long as people such as I keep silent about the lies that your friends would have us believe.<<<<<

So youre promising to build a new foundation on cowardice and acquiescence? Youre going to not say anything about injustice, and hope it goes away, and thats the "only" way your Vision could come true? Hahahaha.

>>>>>I wonder who is brainwashing whom? I have not heard an intelligent word from you children except mockeries and jokes about stuff that some of you admit that you know little about!<<<<<

I know a lot about all the stuff Ive been discussing. Its all intelligent to. Youre just another creepling in denial who purposely reads it with the wrong slant.

Look Im 16 I know what i know which isnt much, and dont have the time to go through everything about things I beleive in, and read it all up, or there would be no time to listen to anyone else.
I know there was a jesus, but i reckon he was just some random black doctor or something, who used herbs not miracles.
I contradict myself alot, but I dont beleieve in shit, unless I SEE it.
I know that can be quite a narrow minded way of seeing stuff, but give me time, I am still young and therefore a dumass hypercrite.
I also believe that mind altering drugs like salvia help you to believe in more, and open up your mind to new and different opinions and beliefs. In the ancinet times many religions used these drugs, especially in ceromonies, whihc is why all the history and bullshit is all mixed up, they were all fuckin acid heads.
Aztecs used the likes of magic mushrooms and Salvia Divinorum to escape and enter the life of their patient to find thier cure.
Jesus smoked salvia? I do not doubt it.

blessed are those who don't see and yet still believe...

If Jesus and God doesn't exist, why is there good in the world? Why haven't we decended to the level of Defiant Exile and killed everyone who wasn't like us?

I have been too hard on the defiant one... I can get pretty defiant myself! I tend to provoke people by being sarcastic too. Just goes to show that I am not any different than anyone else. We all have our hangups. I am out of time right now. I will address whatever issues tomorrow or whatever.

I have given you all plenty to think on. As for the Defiant One out there... this last post was the most intelligent post you have made so far. I will follow up on it tomorrow. See you later. Jonathan

------------------
If you will the rat race, your still a rat!

>>>>>>>If Jesus and God doesn't exist, why is there good in the world?<<<<<<

What is good? I assure you, my perspective can explain the existence of your definition far better than anything that places arbitrary faith in a dead man nailed to a stick.


>>>>>Why haven't we decended to the level of Defiant Exile and killed everyone who wasn't like us?<<<<<

Because it is impossible. Thats the only reason. Dont be so foolish as to think there is a morality to the motivation of states.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Redrover:
If Jesus and God doesn't exist, why is there good in the world? Why haven't we decended to the level of Defiant Exile and killed everyone who wasn't like us?

---

Sorry dude, but you must've smoked a bucket of crack before you wrote this. Talk all you (general) want about how everything is imbedded in our minds by culture, but the simple fact is, if doing good held no benefit for us whatsoever, even if that benefit is solely psychological, no one would bother with it, and it wouldn't be taught by society as the way to be.

You're welcome to place the cause of good wherever you'd like, though.. that debate would last a literal eternity.

aaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrhggggggggghPeople are people! We think for ourselves, have our own morals and decisions, choose what is right and wrong, and whether to kill.
People do kill, it happens alot, but that is a minority. We dont need any fucking god to tell us what is good, and control us!
We are organisms, with brains, we think what is good and do it, and the twisted ones shoot everyone.
Where the fuck does god come into this?
GOD IS NOT REAL
grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr how can you really, as a person, imagine some big blurry freak beard sitting up there telling us what is good can be TRUE??
I dont get it.
Did you ever do science at school?

Did you ever do science at school? -----


sure , what's your point ? Do you think science disproves God ? The more we know , the more we understand the plausibility of God in existence rather than the particularly * free * ( indeed , free form all logic & reason ) thinkers conclusion that CHANCE is the explanation for the immense complexity & order of existence .

Have a good look at reality some time . Now consider the two views here . One concludes pure chance is the explanation of existence . The other says there is inherent reason & design in existence . Which do you recognise ? Which do you think statisically & logically is obvious ?

And while we are saying * have you ever studied science * , think about the numerous great scientists & thinkers of our age . Einstein springs to mind . So yes people have studied science , and a lot of them using their heads have concluded that God makes a lot of sense .

That doesnt mean its a man with holes in his feet and thorns on his head. If theres a force that creates the entire universe with its will, it doesnt die a death reserved for slaves, gurgling on fluid as its lungs fill up, nailed to a stick.

>>>>That doesnt mean its a man with holes in his feet and thorns on his head.<<<<

No I guess it doesn't, but it is a fact based on faith for the people who believe.

>>>>If theres a force that creates the entire universe with its will, it doesnt die a death reserved for slaves, gurgling on fluid as its lungs fill up, nailed to a stick.<<<<

If you believe in Christianity there is a reason Jesus died like that. If you don't believe in a God in the first place why do you care if someone believes he came through Jesus and died that way.

This whole bullshit on trying to prove away peoples belief in a higher power is useless. Religion is faith and by the very definition it is something believed in, in the absence of conventional proof. Whether or not people believe in the Christian God, Allah, Nature, or a Tree God. No disbeliever is ever going to make them think different. If their faith falters it is when the believer make the decision to question their beliefs.

Why do Atheist have to mock the believers. Is it to justify their belief in nothing? Why waste your damn time, you believe in nothing, there is no consequence in your mind if people die believing in a higher power. Atleast when Christians try to convert you to there side it is because they believe if you don't accept Jesus, as your personal lord and savior before you die, you are going to hell.

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Oh great, purple lightning! That's always a good sign.

Hi Sol interesting post just want to correct one point .

------This whole bullshit on trying to prove away peoples belief in a higher power is useless. Religion is faith and by the very definition it is something believed in, in the absence of conventional proof. ------

no , the Bible is all about proof . After all thats why we have a -testament- in the first place . To supply reason for the faith . To say it's purely faith is erroneous , Bibles & actual messengers from God would kind of negate that principle ^^ The Bible states that now that light has come into the world , people are supplied a reason to believe & judged by the same standard . The point is that pure faith or what exactly faith means as used commonly doesnt find the same basis in the scriptures .


As Punkin says he needs to * see * it to believe it . Well humans are not at the top of the food chain because of their extaordinary eyesight . But because we have the advanced capability of thought . So punkin's question would be better worded as he needs a good reason to accept such ideas as God .

Atleast when Christians try to convert you to there side it is because they believe if you don't accept Jesus, as your personal lord and savior before you die, you are going to hell. ----

missed apart . Christians may believe that assertion . But the Bible says otherwise . Jesus on Matthew 12 : 30-35ish says there is only one unforgivable sin , that all other sins can be forgiven either here or in the time to come & that above all else Jesus distinguishes himself from this sin . So yes numerous Christians may believe that but the Bible has a bit more to say .

>>>>Christians may believe that assertion . But the Bible says otherwise<<<<<

What if you think the Bible is just another book?


>>>>Jesus on Matthew 12 : 30-35ish says<<<<

Jesus was a man. I can say, Hitler said "The Jews are undeniably a Race, but they are not human." So what? He's a man too, why faith in Jesus and not Hitler? Oh yeah, Jesus has a best seller out.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sol463:

Why do Atheist have to mock the believers. Is it to justify their belief in nothing? Why waste your damn time, you believe in nothing, there is no consequence in your mind if people die believing in a higher power. Atleast when Christians try to convert you to there side it is because they believe if you don't accept Jesus, as your personal lord and savior before you die, you are going to hell.

---

I think some athiests want to know if maybe they missed something that you guys know. You know something that doesn't make you look so stupid chastising yourself for some greater good.
No I'm just kidding. But think about it this way - if you tell a kid pre-marital sex or not going to church every sunday will send you to hell, and you scare that kid into not wanting to do anything against God's will.......then how is that better than a non-believer telling you that your religion doesn't make sense?

What you have to realise is that you don't really KNOW you are right and a lot of your 'recruiting' goes on when kids are very young and although you may not see anything wrong with this - those kids for the rest of their lives will have boundarys that non-believers just don't have because they are scared of going to hell.

------------------
I don't want the dreams you try to sell...this disease I gave to my self

>>>>you guys<<<<
>>>>and a lot of your 'recruiting'<<<<

I resent the generalization.

>>>>pre-marital sex or not going to church every sunday will send you to hell, and you scare that kid into not wanting to do anything against God's will.......<<<<

This is parenting problem, not teaching kids free will. No five year old is concerned whether or not he is appeasing God.

>>>>What you have to realise is that you don't really KNOW you are right<<<<

It's faith, religous people believe it's true. Most people believe they are going to see tommorow but they don't really KNOW. You can always get shot walking down the street or have a meteorite land on your head. It's faith, that you will see tomorrow, no one is knocked or questioned for believing this.

>>>>kids for the rest of their lives will have boundarys that non-believers just don't have because they are scared of going to hell.<<<<

I'm not nor is anyone resposible for other peoples' inability to think outside the box. Everyone should question what their parents have taught them. If it is true, you will go on believing it for your own reasons.

>>>>why faith in Jesus and not Hitler?<<<<

First, hahahahahahaha and hahahaha. Hitler was a murderer. He not only tried to wipe out the Jews, he tried to wipe out the German people near the end of the war.

>>>>Oh yeah, Jesus has a best seller out.<<<<

Hitler had a book didn't he. I'm sorry it is a bunch of useless dribble.

------------------
Oh great, purple lightning! That's always a good sign.

"This is parenting problem, not teaching kids free will. No five year old is concerned whether or not he is appeasing God."

You sure about that? Kids hear about God, and if they're told that God exists and rules everything and whatnot, they believe it. If the kids are taught that being naughty will make God angry, those boundaries are being set in their minds, and it does happen to five-year-olds. Some test those boundaries, but even defying "God's Will" requires that the child have it in mind that God exists.

>>>This is parenting problem, not teaching kids free will. No five year old is concerned whether or not he is appeasing God.<<<<

Maybe not, but they are damned concerned with pleasing their parents, and if their parents get angry when the kid fights back, or says a girl is cute, hes going to cultivate that as an adult. Its damaging.

>>>>It's faith, religous people believe it's true. Most people believe they are going to see tommorow but they don't really KNOW. You can always get shot walking down the street or have a meteorite land on your head. It's faith, that you will see tomorrow, no one is knocked or questioned for believing this.<<<<

Thats because, after living through many, many tomorrows that they now call yesterday, they have a reason to believe tomorrow is coming.
I believe the point of his post was that the root of your precious Faith is founded in the indoctrination of childish minds that know no better and have no choice but to think their parents world views are right.

>>>>I'm not nor is anyone resposible for other peoples' inability to think outside the box.<<<<

You are when you build it.

>>>>Everyone should question what their parents have taught them.<<<<

But honor thy father and mother tends to get in the way of that.

>>>>If it is true, you will go on believing it for your own reasons.<<<<<<

Fear is your own reason.

"why faith in Jesus and not Hitler?"

>>>>First, hahahahahahaha and hahahaha. Hitler was a murderer. He not only tried to wipe out the Jews, he tried to wipe out the German people near the end of the war.<<<<

Hitler was a man. Jesus was a man. Murdering is something Jesus didnt like. Why do you follow that man and not another man, Hitler?

"Oh yeah, Jesus has a best seller out."

>>>>Hitler had a book didn't he. I'm sorry it is a bunch of useless dribble.<<<<<

Actually its quite intelligent. Have you read it? In 50 years its one of the all time highest selling publications. Why is it useless? It was written by a man? So was your Bible. Why do you believe your bible and not The Fuhrer?
There are obvious differences, my point is, no one ever stops to think WHY the Bible is right to them, they just parrot the slogans about it.

>>>>You sure about that? Kids hear about God, and if they're told that God exists and rules everything and whatnot, they believe it. If the kids are taught that being naughty will make God angry, those boundaries are being set in their minds,<<<<

That is parenting. It is meant to set boundries. Who are you to say what is right for parents to teach their children and to say that the boundries they teach are bad. No one can raise kids without influencing them. Anyone can critique another persons parenting.

>>>>and it does happen to five-year-olds.<<<<

Din't say it doesn't happen to five-year olds, but do you know any five-year old that you would leave to his own devices. They are kids they need influence.

>>>>Some test those boundaries, but even defying "God's Will" requires that the child have it in mind that God exists.<<<<

They are children, their minds are not set. When they are become adults at some point they either decide what their parents taught them was right or disagree and rebel.

>>>>Maybe not, but they are damned concerned with pleasing their parents, and if their parents get angry when the kid fights back, or says a girl is cute, hes going to cultivate that as an adult. Its damaging.<<<<

No one can exist in society without being influenced and "damaged". Everyone's parents affect their children and cause them to cultivate things as children. The only parents that don't are absentee.

>>>>Thats because, after living through many, many tomorrows that they now call yesterday, they have a reason to believe tomorrow is coming.<<<<

I can say the same for Christians, Islamics, Wiccans, and anyone that believes in a higher power. Day after day they feel higher power has acted in their lives, and, after so many days it is undeniable to them that their higher power exists.

>>>I believe the point of his post was that the root of your precious Faith is founded in the indoctrination of childish minds that know no better and have no choice but to think their parents world views are right.<<<<

I can say the same thing of parents who teach Fascism, but at some point these childish minds grow up and decide whether or not they believe what they have been taught. Again, every parent influences their children and no one has a right to criticize it.

>>>>You are when you build it.<<<<

And you are insunating and assuming...

"Everyone should question what their parents have taught them."

>>>>But honor thy father and mother tends to get in the way of that.<<<<

You said you have strong family ties, if your dad asked you to jump off a cliff, would you do it. Believing in a higher power doesn't some how remove your ability to process data and to judge if you want to do it.

>>>>Fear is your own reason.<<<<

Poorly worded if you would like to clarify it later, fine. Is fear the reason you belive in fascism is fear the reason people believe the sun rises in the east. It is no different. Fear cannot be a reason to believe in a god because you have to believe in a god in the first place to fear it. Fear of their parents, religion would be an escape for someone who fears their parents. Although, we are talking individuals there is no way to account for every indiviuals belief in a god.

>>>>Hitler was a man. Jesus was a man.<<<<

If you are a Christian you believe Jesus was more, but you know that.

>>>>Murdering is something Jesus didnt like.<<<<

Yeah...

>>>>Why do you follow that man and not another man, Hitler?<<<<

I don't believe what Hitler preaches.

>>>>Actually its quite intelligent. Have you read it?<<<<

If I said I had, would it make any difference to you. Would my opinion of it carry any more weight with you, probably not.

>>>>Why is it useless?<<<<

I said useless dribble. I am sure it is quite useful to those who believe in the views it expresses.

>>>>, my point is, no one ever stops to think WHY the Bible is right to them,<<<<

If I said I had stopped to think WHY the Bible is right to me, would it change anything for you.

>>>>they just parrot the slogans about it.<<<<

Alot of people do, they have no idea what the scriptures mean so they come out as empty words, but I am sure you know other fascists who do the same thing. It probaly pisses you off as much as the latter does me.

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When the walls of perception are finally cleared, we will all see things as they truly are.

-William Blake

>>>>That is parenting. It is meant to set boundries. Who are you to say what is right for parents to teach their children and to say that the boundries they teach are bad. No one can raise kids without influencing them. Anyone can critique another persons parenting.<<<<<

Boundaries have nothign to do with indoctrinating children about things they cant understand yet. You show them commandments against adultery before they know what sex is. That builds an "ideology" based solely on fear, not understanding. My children will hear nothing of behavior codes for things that concern only adults. Kids jobs are to be kids. After 10 years of laughing and having no fun and minimal responsibilities, then Dad can sit them down and let em know the score.

>>>>Din't say it doesn't happen to five-year olds, but do you know any five-year old that you would leave to his own devices. They are kids they need influence.<<<<

I know. Other children. Parents who behave with respect for each other and love towards one another around them. Thats about it. They dont need a doctrine of global peace when they dont understand the concept of a world beyond their neighborhood.

>>>They are children, their minds are not set. When they are become adults at some point they either decide what their parents taught them was right or disagree and rebel.<<<<

But their parents lay foundations, even just by being Christians around the children. A Quaker really never needs to say a word about war to his kid, if he started learning about it later in life, he will remember his father complete absence of martial example and think negative thoughts about it.

>>>>No one can exist in society without being influenced and "damaged". Everyone's parents affect their children and cause them to cultivate things as children. The only parents that don't are absentee.<<<<

I know. Im saying, Christians cultivate things like, Forgive the kid who beats you up. Thats unnatural and sad. Its unnatural, therefore, believing it solely out of programming is damaging.

"Thats because, after living through many, many tomorrows that they now call yesterday, they have a reason to believe tomorrow is coming."

>>>>I can say the same for Christians, Islamics, Wiccans, and anyone that believes in a higher power. Day after day they feel higher power has acted in their lives, and, after so many days it is undeniable to them that their higher power exists.<<<<

If you repeat anything enough you will come to believe it. So what? We are dealing with evidence for skeptics, not hopeless and lost sheep.

>>>I can say the same thing of parents who teach Fascism<<<,

Ive never met any, so I cant say. Have you? I know Im a Fascist and I outlined above the ideological education of my children.

>>>>but at some point these childish minds grow up and decide whether or not they believe what they have been taught. Again, every parent influences their children and no one has a right to criticize it.<<<<

Oh. Now Im not even allowed to say a bad word about how people raise their kids. If they dont raise their kids to respect the raising of children, thats one massive error that all peopel should agree is wrong. There aer a lot of fundamentals to parenting whose absnece I can criticise. I dont care how you make your kid feel worthy, but if your parenting style consists of making him feel like nothing, youre a bad parent. Thats an easy call.

>>>>You said you have strong family ties, if your dad asked you to jump off a cliff, would you do it.<<<<

He wouldnt ask me to do that. I know because Id never ask my child to do that. Especially since theres no reason to.

>>>>Believing in a higher power doesn't some how remove your ability to process data and to judge if you want to do it.<<<<

That kind of contradicts the word HIGHER power, doesnt it?

>>>>Poorly worded if you would like to clarify it later, fine. Is fear the reason you belive in fascism<<<<

No. Reason is the reason I believe in Fascism.

>>>>s fear the reason people believe the sun rises in the east.<<<<<

Their eyes and compasses are.

>>>>It is no different.<<<<<

Your God can be proven with eyes and a compass?

>>>>>Fear cannot be a reason to believe in a god because you have to believe in a god in the first place to fear it.<<<<<

No you dont. You can fear the unknown then listen to your crackpot grandma about burning in Hell and appease her deity.

>>>>>Fear of their parents, religion would be an escape for someone who fears their parents. Although, we are talking individuals there is no way to account for every indiviuals belief in a god.<<<<<

Mostly the inability to accept the fact that without a Bible, they have to invent their own morality, and they dont have the capacity to do so.

"Hitler was a man. Jesus was a man."

>>>If you are a Christian you believe Jesus was more, but you know that.<<<<

What if youre not? What makes you a Christian to begin with? Why choose to believe that man is the son of god and not Hitler?

>>>>I don't believe what Hitler preaches.<<<<

Why not?


>>>>>If I said I had (read Mein Kampf), would it make any difference to you. Would my opinion of it carry any more weight with you, probably not.<<<<

Thats a no isnt it? If you were criticising it after reading it, it would obviously lend you more credibility than what youre doing now, repeating someone elses opinion of a book you never opened.

>>>I said useless dribble. I am sure it is quite useful to those who believe in the views it expresses.<<<<

Than its not useless.

"my point is, no one ever stops to think WHY the Bible is right to them"

>>>>If I said I had stopped to think WHY the Bible is right to me, would it change anything for you<<<<

Yes, because then you wouldnt be able to find an answer and not be a Christian.

>>>>Boundaries have nothign to do with indoctrinating children about things they cant understand yet. You show them commandments against adultery before they know what sex is. That builds an "ideology" based solely on fear, not understanding.<<<<

The "indoctrining" creates boundries, so boundries has something to do with it. So what, you think, Christian parents are teaching the intricacies of the word adultery. You dramatize the affect the commandments have on children. Parents in general teach kids to follow things that they cannot fully conceive. Every parent has a control over their kids that makes them think what ever their parents say is unquestionably right, Christians are not the only ones who does the things. The control parents have over their children is a part of that natural order you love to plug.

>>>>They dont need a doctrine of global peace when they dont understand the concept of a world beyond their neighborhood.<<<<

Teenagers' brains aren't fully developed. They don't have the mental capacity of a full adult, does that mean you want to wait until everyone is twenty something before instilling anything. You promote fascism do you think a think a fascist goverment would wait to instill propaganda in a child. Your institution of fascism would be no different in the way it treats kids than the institutions of religion.

>>>>But their parents lay foundations, even just by being Christians around the children.<<<<

So what? People lay foundations being an American around their children. They lay foundations being male or female around their children. People lay foundations not being around their children.

>>>>A Quaker really never needs to say a word about war to his kid, if he started learning about it later in life, he will remember his father complete absence of martial example and think negative thoughts about it.<<<<

Or think his dad has no thought on it whatsoever and goes and joins the army.

>>>>I know. Im saying, Christians cultivate things like, Forgive the kid who beats you up. Thats unnatural and sad. Its unnatural, therefore, believing it solely out of programming is damaging.<<<<

Marriage is unnatural. Men sticking around to raise their kids is unnatural. Society is unnatural. Repressing any urge is unnatural. Fascism wants everyone to work together for the common good of the state. People are naturally selfish creatures, Fascism would create an unnatural order. How then, with your belief in natural order can you promote it. You don't want natural order you want to be told what to do, and feel like you are apart of something. All social contact is programmed would you not teach your children that randomly hitting people in a crowd is impolite. If everyone followed their instincts society could not exist and your. Everything a child does is basically programming, are you teaching your children english, that is programming, you can't raise children wothout programing them.

>>>>If you repeat anything enough you will come to believe it.<<<<

Is that why you talk like Fascism is a good idea? To convince yourself.

>>>>So what? We are dealing with evidence for skeptics, not hopeless and lost sheep.<<<<

That is just it the most compelling evidence for believers in faiths is intangible.

>>>>Ive never met any, so I cant say. Have you?<<<<

I doubt the physiological make-up of a fascist is any different than that of a Christian. So it is conceivable that they raise their children with the same basic thought processes guiding them.

>>>>I know Im a Fascist and I outlined above the ideological education of my children.<<<<

You are kidding yourself if you think you can be around someone for ten years, especially your children, and not influence their world view at all.

>>>>Oh. Now Im not even allowed to say a bad word about how people raise their kids.<<<<

Yes.

>>>>There aer a lot of fundamentals to parenting whose absnece I can criticise. I dont care how you make your kid feel worthy, but if your parenting style consists of making him feel like nothing, youre a bad parent. Thats an easy call.<<<<

I agree. Okay criticize was the wrong word. I meant that I shouldn't be able to take your kids away from you beacause I feel the views you are teaching them are wrong.

"You said you have strong family ties, if your dad asked you to jump off a cliff, would you do it."

>>>>He wouldnt ask me to do that. I know because Id never ask my child to do that. Especially since theres no reason to.<<<<

It is an anology. I am pointing out that everyone has the basic instinct to question something and see if it is detremental to their well being and with that basic instinct they have more developed one that allows them to process concepts to see if they agree with them. Maybe not so much when they are children but the older they get the stronger it becomes.

"Believing in a higher power doesn't some how remove your ability to process data and to judge if you want to do it."

>>>>That kind of contradicts the word HIGHER power, doesnt it?<<<<

No it doesn't. You have free will and if you believe in God and then that he made you. Than he gave you free will and thus wants you to use it.

>>>>No. Reason is the reason I believe in Fascism.<<<<

Reason? That is a matter of opinion.

>>>>Your God can be proven with eyes and a compass?<<<<

I guess it depends who posseses them. You seemed to have missed something I said. For someone who believes in God or any higher power even if the Bible didn't exist they would still believe. It is something that is inside. All the evidence of anyone who believes in a higher power throws at you will mean nothing until you feel the same way and then you will begin to see proof all over the place. It is the same way for people of all faiths. Even Atheist are no different you look at something and see proof as to why you believe there is no god. I could look at the same thing and see proof as to why I believe there is a god.

>>>>No you dont. You can fear the unknown then listen to your crackpot grandma about burning in Hell and appease her deity.<<<<

Yeah, you can also listen to her and think she is full of shit and do nothing.

"Fear of their parents, religion would be an escape for someone who fears their parents. Although, we are talking individuals there is no way to account for every indiviuals belief in a god."

>>>>Mostly the inability to accept the fact that without a Bible, they have to invent their own morality, and they dont have the capacity to do so.<<<<

No, you weren't listening.

Although, we are talking individuals there is no way to account for every indiviuals belief in a god. So don't try and account for it.

"If you are a Christian you believe Jesus was more, but you know that."

>>>>What if youre not?<<<<

You don't believe he is more.

>>>>What makes you a Christian to begin with? Why choose to believe that man is the son of god and not Hitler?<<<<

What makes you a fascist. You can cite examples why you are and I can cite examples why I am a Christian. It will accomplish nothing. I was unaware, Hitler ever claimed he was the son of God. The only evidence I can cite to believe Jesus was the son of God, will mean shit to you, why bother?

"I don't believe what Hitler preaches."

>>>>Why not?<<<<

Because..., will it accomplish anything if I wrote you an essay why? I accept that you believe what he preaches, accept that I do not. Your reasons would mean nothing to me as mine would mean nothing to you. Let's not waste eachothers' time.

>>>>Than its not useless.<<<<

Sure it is.

"If I said I had stopped to think WHY the Bible is right to me, would it change anything for you"

>>>>Yes, because then you wouldnt be able to find an answer and not be a Christian.<<<<

Well I did and I am. I would think as someone who has read so much on Fascism that you would see how ridiculous it is, but... here we are.



------------------
When the walls of perception are finally cleared, we will all see things as they truly are.

-William Blake

oh shut the fuck up.
Im dying and rotting and that is it.

>>>>The "indoctrining" creates boundries, so boundries has something to do with it. So what, you think, Christian parents are teaching the intricacies of the word adultery. You dramatize the affect the commandments have on children. Parents in general teach kids to follow things that they cannot fully conceive.<<<<<

Making their following based on the desire to please Dad and mom, or fear of Hell. They can understand fire. They cant understand marital fidelity with COmmandments. Examples, yeah, old Jewish stone tablets, negative.

>>>>Every parent has a control over their kids that makes them think what ever their parents say is unquestionably right, Christians are not the only ones who does the things. The control parents have over their children is a part of that natural order you love to plug.<<<<

Theres nothing natural about being born with a guilt complex that neesd to be washed away by baptism and reaffirmed in daily prayer.

"They dont need a doctrine of global peace when they dont understand the concept of a world beyond their neighborhood."

>>>>Teenagers' brains aren't fully developed. They don't have the mental capacity of a full adult, does that mean you want to wait until everyone is twenty something before instilling anything.<<<<

No, but theres nothing gayer than fourteen and fiften year olds talking about how the world should be.

>>>>You promote fascism do you think a think a fascist goverment would wait to instill propaganda in a child. Your institution of fascism would be no different in the way it treats kids than the institutions of religion.<<<<

Actually it is. Youth organizations for children, the equivalent of our public schooling, started around the age of 8 or 10. Thats way past a child's most gullible stage. The State entrusts children's minds and hearts to their parents until they are old enough to see something of their world.

"But their parents lay foundations, even just by being Christians around the children."

>>>>So what? People lay foundations being an American around their children. They lay foundations being male or female around their children. People lay foundations not being around their children.<<<<<

I know. But when youre opposed to Christianity, as any mentally healthy man should be, laying its foundation, conciously or otherwise, is bad.

"I know. Im saying, Christians cultivate things like, Forgive the kid who beats you up. Thats unnatural and sad. Its unnatural, therefore, believing it solely out of programming is damaging."

>>>>Marriage is unnatural. Men sticking around to raise their kids is unnatural. Society is unnatural. Repressing any urge is unnatural. Fascism wants everyone to work together for the common good of the state. People are naturally selfish creatures<<<<

Haha. Thats all wrong. If yo look at humans scientifically and objectively, youd see we evolved as primarily monogamous creatures designed for a social pack of nuclear families. Coincidence thats almost all societies on the planet since the dawn of time?

>>>That is just it the most compelling evidence for believers in faiths is intangible.<<<<

Baaahahaahaa. What made you believe something in the first place? Either evidence, or conditioning.

>>>I doubt the physiological make-up of a fascist is any different than that of a Christian. So it is conceivable that they raise their children with the same basic thought processes guiding them.<<<<<

Nope. I dont know any Fascist parents yet, but I know a good share of future fathers that are Fascists or Nazis, and they are different men then your sheep.

>>>>You are kidding yourself if you think you can be around someone for ten years, especially your children, and not influence their world view at all.<<<<

I didnt say I wouldnt influence their world view at all. Id like them to see their mother as someone who loves her children and husband, and puts her family before herself. I can do that without words. Id like them to see me as someone with honesty and integrity and character who would defend them and their honor, and be forever loyal to their mother. I can show them that without words.
I will not sit my children down and teach them about blood, honor, and loyalty until they are old enough to know what that means.


>>>>It is an anology. I am pointing out that everyone has the basic instinct to question something and see if it is detremental to their well being and with that basic instinct they have more developed one that allows them to process concepts to see if they agree with them. Maybe not so much when they are children but the older they get the stronger it becomes.<<<<,

So what? Speaking of Christianity here solely, it uses guilt, self hatred, and fear to make children question their instinct. Who are they to question the Bible? Who are they to question their father, dont the commandments say to honor him? But why question it to begin with, what difference does joy make, our bodies are just shells. These are things Christianity will permanently cripple people with and stifle their instincts with.

>>>No it doesn't. You have free will and if you believe in God and then that he made you. Than he gave you free will and thus wants you to use it.<<<<

But you better use it how he says, or youll burn forever...How nice of him.

>>>Reason? That is a matter of opinion.<<<<

No its not. Logic is Logic.

>>>>I guess it depends who posseses them. You seemed to have missed something I said. For someone who believes in God or any higher power even if the Bible didn't exist they would still believe.<<<<

You compared it to having faith in the sun rising in the East. I asked you, can your God be proven with eyes and a compass?

>>>>It is something that is inside. All the evidence of anyone who believes in a higher power throws at you will mean nothing until you feel the same way and then you will begin to see proof all over the place. It is the same way for people of all faiths. Even Atheist are no different you look at something and see proof as to why you believe there is no god. I could look at the same thing and see proof as to why I believe there is a god.<<<<<

You can still be wrong. I can see a tails side of a coin and believe its heads, Im still wrong.

>>>>Yeah, you can also listen to her and think she is full of shit and do nothing.<<<<

And burn in Hell, right?

"Mostly the inability to accept the fact that without a Bible, they have to invent their own morality, and they dont have the capacity to do so."

>>>>No, you weren't listening.

Although, we are talking individuals there is no way to account for every indiviuals belief in a god. So don't try and account for it.<<<<<

Of course there is no way to account for every individual. But when the doctrine says something, and points to shared personality traits, and requires them, or requires discipline to learn them, plenty of generalizations can be made. How else can one speak of anything that involves more than ten people?


"What makes you a Christian to begin with? Why choose to believe that man is the son of god and not Hitler?"

>>>>>What makes you a fascist. You can cite examples why you are and I can cite examples why I am a Christian. It will accomplish nothing.<<<<<

Read my post in the Politics thread, My Mentor.

>>>>I was unaware, Hitler ever claimed he was the son of God. The only evidence I can cite to believe Jesus was the son of God, will mean shit to you, why bother?<<<<

Because you take Jesus's word for it. Are you saying if Hitler said he was the son of God hed have as much credibility to you?
Hitler said he "wasnt the one, but since no one has done anything to prepare for Him, I step forward to do so." Something like that anyway...So why not believe hes a prophet foretelling of the son of God?


(Why not believe what Hitler preaches)

>>>>Because..., will it accomplish anything if I wrote you an essay why? I accept that you believe what he preaches, accept that I do not. Your reasons would mean nothing to me as mine would mean nothing to you. Let's not waste eachothers' time.<<<<

I would think it very engaging to see why you dont believe in the Fuhrer, but do believe in the Crucified. Like I said, someone can be wrong.

jesus never procaimed himself the son of god, jesus never called himself the messiah.

those definitions were put on him by those who followed him.

When the sun starts to set, look across the field, night or day, And I bet you a quid you will say; "Wonder what 'appens when you get to the end, do we fuck off up to 'eaven, or just... end?" And to that I'll reply "Yes you will die, but please don't cry, but unless youre trippin', the only God you'll be tippin' will be the maggot eatin' yer eye. Bodies they function, then we get to that junction, we choose no direction, we die. The heart it stops pumpin' our legs they stop jumpin' and the nits in our hair move next door. We just fall over, blood splattered, skull then smashes, hits the floor. There's no terrestrial contact, no angels or wings in the contract, we just stop workin' yer dicks ya stop jerkin' and the worms eat us all in one day." "This aint fair" You may say, but at the end of th' day, who wants to live forever in fluffy white clouds?

and you have proof to this effect?

i don't believe in fluffy white clouds.

quote:
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Originally posted by Redrover:
If Jesus and God doesn't exist, why is there good in the world? Why haven't we decended to the level of Defiant Exile and killed everyone who wasn't like us?
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umm were have you been for the last centry or so we have killed eachother

jesus might have exsisted and he might have been good at talking to the people but in my view there is no god only intelagent life that is superios to ours this may not be in the right area but look at all those ancient civalisations they worsiped many gods and if you like to watch documentrys and that sorta stuff on this topic then you might have realised that they all talk about the gods decending from the heavens well doesnt take much to guess what there talking bout. now whats stoping this god of ours from being the same just another supperior life form.

The burden of proof is not on us. We are not alleging the existence of something that cant be seen. It is not here. Why do we have to prove that? In any objective discussion, with some kind of intelligent, rational line of thinking, the burden of proof rests on the people creating something that isnt, and wasnt there to others.

------This whole bullshit on trying to prove away peoples belief in a higher power is useless. Religion is faith and by the very definition it is something believed in, in the absence of conventional proof.------

Correct me if I am wrong, but that sounds remarkably like the definition of a scientific theory to me.