So, in the bookstore the other day, wanting to buy a book, couldn't find anything decent for under $25 that I hadn't read, so I wander over to the philosophy section and end up picking up a book on Zen Buddhism.. I've only read the first couple of chapters so far, but I'm finding it v interesting to say the least.. The basic idea as I understand it thus far, is that in most of western philosophy, the main aim is to seperate the intellect, and make it the highest goal.. In zen, the idea is to live only with facts, and to try and eliminate duality from life.. Such as, you sleep when you are tired, and eat when you are hungry, and do only that, nothing else. Very interesting ideas so far.. Has anyone else ever looked into this? Any ideas and or thoughts? As I'm reading the book it would be nice to have someone to discuss the concepts with, as I think it'll be a bit of a head fuck.. Of course, being me, I love head fuck kinda stuff, but still..

how do grow without intellect.

and what if the facts you believe to be true turn out to be wrong; or would we still consider the earth the center of the universe.

eating when your hungry; sleeping when you're tired and fucking when you're horny are common sense.

i think we need duality, not in the good side bad side realm,

but in the

i do what i must to exist;

i do what i want to live

sort of vein.

seems to me the idea i get is just exist and take pleasure in that.

what a waste of life.

in my opinion anyways.

fuck zen. yeah,thats called LIVING! if you dont eat when your hungry you will get a stomach ache and then die! take for instance me,i dont do drugs,i work a lot,i like to learn,on my days off i go to borders and just read at whatever im learning about that week. or i go on the internet for any info on what i m learning.but then take for instance my brother,he likes to fuck around and do drugs,he is hooked on meth,he lives on the beach,the only thing he pursues is his little 20$ paper each day. i havent talked to him for like 5 months now. hes totally fucked in the head. so basicly a person does whatever is in his/her heart.i love knowledge and wisdom,but more wisdom. i think of my mind as a hard drive on a computer,when im doing a certain task,ill put the knowledge i need in it,when im done? delete it. knowledge is what you know,wisdom is how you use it.

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Come on hillbily,can your horse do a fuckin wheely?

i do drugs and i'm not fucked in the head.

i'm hooked on cocaine. i get high everyday at work. i've been at my job for 6 years; and i'd bet not even the total of one month since i've been there have i arrived; as you would term; "sober".

i've chopped rails on my desk in my office.
(what the fuck; your desk your office you drug fiend).

what do i do you ask?

i'm the assistant account programmer/network administrator for a telecommunications company.

i work with visual c++; visual basic; visual foxpro.

my hobbies include being a part-time musician; once in a band writing originals.

you're right!!!!

drugs have ruined my life and i should stop immediately.

don't excuse laziness and lack of initiative with the habits of the individual.

if you eat chocolate you eat the most widely used drug in the world and now label yourself hipporcritical.

LostMind: I didnt say he did cocaine. as i see it,most of the great minds and bussines men did cocaine,it gives you an edge. if you dont blow your fucking brain on it all the time. i said my brother does meth,to me,this is the most fucked up thing ive seen.meth is crystals,which crystalize on your brain and actually change the shape of it.it fuuuuucks you UP! totally fucked,your not the same person anymore,even if you wanted to be. your eyes bug out like a freak,and you tweak all the fuckin time,sometimes my brother would be awake for 5 days then when he came down he would sleep for 5 days straight.

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Come on hillbily,can your horse do a fuckin wheely?

An excellent book about Zen is called "Zen Speaks", under $15 at Barnes & Noble. You'll know it when you see it.. it looks like a bunch of comic strips. The book's designed for people who don't know much about it; with the tales are basic explanations of what they mean. The reason I say it's aimed towards people who don't know much about Zen is because the tales and koans (Zen riddles) related in the book teach more if the reader draws their own conclusions, but someone new to Zen can easily get frustrated if they read a bunch of things that don't make sense. The explanations serve as a pointer in the right direction.

You guys are right- Zen is all about living your everyday life. But how many people actually take joy in that life? When the average person is hungry, they rarely eat; they consume food while pondering the other goings-on in their lives. It's not often that they sincerely enjoy eating; the problems of what has been, and what's to come, instead of the reality of the present, take precedence. And how many people are happy that way?

Suz, as much as Zen isn't found in words, I would be super happy to talk about it with ya.. it's like a key to life for me, but it's also the one thing that no one else I know has really gotten into (which has helped in some ways).. it is head fuck kinda stuff till you start to understand it more. A lot of it makes sense intellectually at first, and you'll be able to feel the truth in some things right off, but the process of learning in Zen never stops.

Ahh thanks Spiff.. Until I read your reply I'd figured the whole point of my post had passed wayyyyy over the heads of the collective around here.. And yes, I've gotten the part where Zen is not found in words.. I'm not necessarily looking for it in that way, I just like exploring concepts, and I definitely like the idea of being happy where you are, and the stuff about the stick really intruiges me too..

I found Tao a big tease.

Zen is boring as shiznit.

Duality is not to be ignored. The human brain operates on binary sorts.

Eh... Zen.

here is a good one
Kornology: this is somthing i do to let my anger out in a safe way,somtimes if ppl piss me off too much i beat their face in,but if i can hold it back until i get home then i can enjoy this fun little pastime,here is how it works:come home from work or wherever,have a diet coke,play guitar for 10 minutes.sit down and organize my head,what do i need to do? whats the most important thought in my head? whats the big event of the moment?how do i feel?if im angry or sad about somthing,which i usaully am,then i will think about all the things that could have fueled these emotions. "hmm,oh yeah that one crackhead yelled at me after i left work,i fought him but he was 2times my size so i got the shit beat out of me.that bitch at the store gave me the wrong change,that little kid made a fucking face at me like im some freak,that old fucker of a man called me a punk,my car broke down,i ran out of grease for my hair,the fuckin radio station plays crappy songs that piss me the hell off!,my fucking ball sack is a big as a basball from my hernia and its as sore as hell!motherfucker!"
then i say "what the fuck!" about ten times
then i beat my pillow
then i cry
then i go to sleep listening to korn
then i wake up in the morning without any anger and no one got hurt.then it starts building up again........

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Come on hillbily,can your horse do a fuckin wheely?

Thanks muchly for polluting my topic with your insane ramblings.

im sorry suzie,your making me cry with that little face.will you forgive me?

I suppose so.. just go start your own topics unless you have something constructive to add to mine.

I don't much get into philosophy anymore. Read a lot about it when i was younger, I think it's just mental masturbation.

and i am a fucking hillbilly

"it is head fuck kinda stuff till you start to understand it more."

isn't all brainwashing?

Brainwashing? In the most technical sense, I suppose it could be seen that way.. just like any other line of philosophical thought, religious or otherwise (btw, although Zen was derived from Buddhist teachings, it's often not considered to be a religion). Going back to our debates on marijuana, I could say you've been brainwashed into thinking it won't hurt you, and you could say I've been brainwashed into thinking it will. There's no end to the potential for that word.

The major difference between Zen and most religions, though, is that if you pay attention, you can see the truth in it with your own eyes, without fail. In Islam, Christianity, Judaism.. all of these things ask their followers to believe in a deity which they may never actually feel the presence of, much less see; and to believe in holy books which tell the tales of things long past, which may or may not be true, but which none of us can ever see. That's why I'm drawn to it; it's still like any other philosophy, though. Works for some, not for others.

I won't argue your brainwashing point.. I think it's wrong, but you can of course believe what you want. But, I couldn't just say nothing.

brainwashing as with all aspects of reality depends on point of view.

i'd love to get on the debate of concepts with you guys but i know none so i'm not the person to start.

but my belief is that if you dig deep enough to the core you'll see the similarities that bind every religion or philosophy of life together with points that should have been made with common sense.

Vaguely, yeah.. But it's the specifics they ask you to swallow that usually get me..

The point is to ignore the specifics. The details of any religion are what should be ignored, they only exist as an adjunct to some sorta overall philosophy, and while the philosophy may be wonderful, the strings attached usually ain't so great, the choosing of a religion or a faith is less about which one is right, and more about which one works for you. Fundamentally all religion is just a separate means to the same end, separate paths leading to the same destination. So however you get there is totally up for you to work out, do as thou wilt and all that...

If you strip away specifics of varying religions, and pay attention only to the common sense truth that permeates them all, what do you have?

Zen.

In fact, one of the many Zen stories I've read has a monk asking his master if he ever read the Christian Bible. The master says no, read it to me. The student does, and the master says that whoever wrote those words is an enlightened man.

That's why I like it. Open-minded, no bullshit.

that's just what i don't like about it spiffy,

the fact it needs a name.

i really feel sorry for people...

who need to be told killing is wrong.

who need to be told to enjoy every moment life has to offer even the shitty ones.

who need to be told not to take shit from others.

who need to build their lives around a philosophy instead of building the philosophy around their lives(if that makes sense).

You know why it has a name? Because people are clueless. Common sense exists within each and every one of us, but we all know plenty of people who don't use it. If the people with a natural attunement to their common sense just sat there, then they would understand, and others wouldn't.

The idea behind naming Zen, teaching Zen, is not to tell people, for example, "killing is wrong", and have them obey; it's to get them to understand, in every fiber of their being, that killing is wrong. It gives those who haven't tapped into their natural wisdom something solid to grasp (words) before teaching them that the nature of Zen is not solid at all.

Y'know, Z3n is just Tao decaffinated. I tend to think that those who waste their time with Zen -- thinking about it, talking about it, etc -- are totally missing the point.

Ok, im sorry if this is lengthy, but its the best example of Tao (and therefore related to zen) i have ever read. Its from the Tao of Pooh, a quote from winnie-the-pooh has just been read.

"Whats that?" the Unbeliever asked.
"Wisdom from a Western Taoist,' I said.
"It sounds like something from Winnie-the-pooh," he said.
"It is" I said.
"thats not about Taoism" he said.
..."What do you think it's about?" I said.
"Its about this dumpy little bear that wanders around asking silly questions, making up songs, and going through all kinds of adventures, without ever accumulating any amount of intellectual knowldge or losing his simpleminded sort of happiness. Thats's what it's about," he said.
"Same thing," I said.

That's true for attitude of a Taoist, but I would shy away from the remark about the intellect. 'Specially since, to not understand Tao, you need to be pretty smart.

I dunno, Z3m. I know some dumb motherfuckers who are pretty unhappy a lot.

Catch your body to ignore.

i am sorry this is off the subject, i am now a hypocrite, but i would like to tell you suziegirl, that you hurt my feelings badly. i feel liike an asshole... i cant believe what i have done! but i see no point in us arguing like we are doing..... so i would like to call a truce