i'll start my topic by saying this


Prove to me that there is a god.

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- religion is a crutch for the weak

And I'll start my reply by saying....prove to me there isn't a god.

ok, good reply, i was assuming someone would say that. i would then say, you cannot prove there isn't something, there would be no proof.

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- religion is a crutch for the weak

so you're saying you can't disprove the existance of santa claus or the easter bunny?

i thought of it as an interesting name until now,

but atheist666 is an oxymoron.

if you don't believe in god, you can't believe in the devil, and the number you put at the end of your name goes against everything you believe in.

explain that.

let me ask you this.

why are you so special that god should reveal himself to you.

the fact that you don't believe.

do you try to get people who don't like you, to like you?

neither do i.

and you can't be a nazi, because nazi's believed strongly in god and in jesus christ, one of the many reasons they persecuted jews.

they did have a firm belief in the occult; but the occult does not necessarily mean satanism, palm readers, psychics, and horoscopes are all consider occultist.

i hate people that ask for the proof of god.

since you think everything is meaningless and there is nothing after you die.

why don't you go kill yourself, instead of enduring the misery in this world.

or could it be you are the one who is truly weak.

what are you in junior high?


[This message has been edited by lostmind (edited 02-21-2001).]

i didn't mention santa, or the easter bunny. they aren't real, and therefore, there is no proof in their existence. having no proof in their existence means that they do not exist.

my name was invented as an oxy moron, purposely by me. after i made it (a few years ago) i have done research on different religions, including satanism. being a satanist doesn't mean you believe in the devil, or worship him as a deity. satanism is based on principles that i will post upon request. satanism is very similar to atheism in many ways. satanists do not worship satan as a deity, they are more into self indulgence. here are the 21 satanic points

I - Respect not pity or weakness, for they are a disease which makes sick the strong
II - Test always your strength, for therein lies success
III- Seek happiness in victory - but never in peace
IV - Enjoy a short rest, better than a long
V - Come as a reaper, for thus you shall sow
VI - Never love anything so much you cannot see it die
VII - Build not upon sand but upon rock, and build not for today or yesterday but for all time
VIII - Strive ever for more, for conquest is never done
IX - And die rather than submit
X - Forge not works of art but swords of death, for therein lies great art
XI - Learn to raise yourself above yourself so can triumph over all
XII - The blood of the living makes good fertilizer for the seeds of the new
XIII - He who stands atop the highest pyrimad of skulls can see the furthest
XIV - Discard not love but treat it as an imposter, but ever be just
XV - All that is great is built upon sorrow
XVI - Strive not only forward, but upwards for greatness lies in the highest
XVII - Come as a fresh strong wind that breaks yet also creates
XVIII - Let love of life be a goal but let your highest goal be greatness
XIX - Nothing is beautiful except man: but most beautiful of all is woman
XX - regect all illusion and lies, for they hinder the strong
XXI - What does not kill, makes stronger

From: The Black Book of Satan

i don't agree with many of these considering i'm not a satanist, but i see no mention of satan or god here.

why am i so special that god should reveal himself? well, i'm expected to worship him from birth, do his will and all that, so why not. also, how could there be just one "true" religion of all the religions in the world? there couldn't. some say that they are all the same religions seen from different perspectives and all that, but how could that be so? some are so vastly dissimilar that it is impossible for them to be branches from the same tree.

i'm not a nazi, i just don't like giving away completely accurate information about myself, although i am interested in nazi germany, and hitler.

when did i say everything was meaningless? i would find it meaningless to live my life for someone else. misery? i'm having an ok time so why would i end it?

no, i wouldn't consider myself the weak one, i have the strength to rule my own life, without fear of hell, or the desire to be a good person so i can go to heaven. i can do as i please, with only the consequences of man to hold me back, and not the consequences of god.

no, i'm not in junior high, but it's past my bedtime, i have to get up early.



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- religion is a crutch for the weak

I've seen a few of those by themsleves in other places. It is rather amusing if you think about it, that is a pretty good list of primary directives to instill in a team of players who are inherently bound to come up just short of victorious, in fact it is quite perfect. Does anyone else find that list more than anything amusing?

Well relevance anyways.

Atheist, who told you from birth to believe in God?
certainly not God? so what you are lumping together are the desires of you parents or influential caregivers and peers when right from the get go of your independent thinking you had ought to realize that of course there is no one all encompassinly correct religion
don't spen a decade making bumperstickers to that effect!


Why not, if anything, see what you can find in each or some of them which you personally, only your mind, and your thoughts, can truly tell you that you find worthy of some tentative merit. After all who else is qualified to define these matters for you?

If you are naked and feel a need to be clothed, then are you gonna run around until you find an outfit that is tailor fitted to your exact proportions and sold as a set, socks undies belt ties, etc. or would it not make more sense to get some pants on, then see about a shirt, hey if you can get it all at one place great, but if you are only sold the clothes if you will immediately don the entire set and you think the little vest is most heinous, will you wear it anyway just to
get some clothes or will you pretend to wear it and throw it out the window on the freeway? Maybe you ought to be responsible for dressing youself and soley dedciding what if anything to wear. Rememeber there are nudists out there. Anyway, the rebuttal about
oh, fuck it I'm too tired to think now.

Just where do you suppose all the beauty in nature that surrounds us comes from and whether or not you will get a pass into heaven, are you not for the most part a good person anyway?

Well, no one cares as much as you, so have a good time!

Oh yeah, and if someone told you you couldnt wear a piece of clothing because it didn't go with your outift as they anticipated it, wouldnt it be more or less none of their business? can't you wear your favorite shirt and your second favoirte pants? isn't the whole point that you are covered and wearing what you find comfortable? for goodness sake forget about squabbling over the finer points of the scriptures, take a giant step, assume that they too fall under the category of tentatively innacurate in part and then upon being party to that having been proffered, get on with your own thinking but don't be a slave to it

winki, you have put me to shame with your clothing analogy. it is indeed good. personally, i don't really care what people believe, and i think religion is an essential addition to humanity even though it is fictional. without religion, there would probably be chaos. without religion, how many people, not afraid of hell, would steal from you, rape you, kill you and your families? i don't think religion is bad, i was just trying to make a point, which i am allowed to do, am i right? or will i go to hell? the thing i don't like about religious people(not all), is when they preach to me about going to hell for being an atheist. i have to go, and will continue this duscussion when i return. nice analogy winki


ok another thought just came to mind. taking bits and pieces of different religions, belief systems, and principles sounds like a good idea. isn't it against many of the religions that these beliefs come from? it doesn't really matter, but people who have their faith in these religions might say that the person who is tailoring there belief system is "sinning" and is going to hell. someone that believes in god, but is tailoring their beliefs to suit their needs, doesn't sound like they have very much faith. can someone give me a point of view on this? thanks
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- religion is a crutch for the weak

[This message has been edited by atheist666 (edited 02-21-2001).]

this whole religion thing is a shit load... I mean, the Bible is an allegory that you teach to your children in order to try to teach right and wrong, not something to be taken litterally! Or seriously for that matter! And for all you christians there, how can you say that your god is the only god. That all the other religions out there aren't true? Isn't that a bit selfish of you? Maybe you're going to end up in buddist hell? you never know now do you? faith is crap, people shouldn't have to have this false hope that religion brings! It's for the weak minded, that need someone to follow just to make themselves feel like their life is meaning something. If you're religious you're living your life for someone else, which is insane. Live it for yourself, otherwise you will never be truley happy.

atheist 666;

what if you're wrong.

i realize and accept the fact i could be wrong, but until i have PROOF otherwise i believe what i believe.


i wish for once people could seperate religion from god.

they are two seperate things entirely.

religion was a way to civilize a primitive culture.

religion was the first form of government, that used a fear of the creator as it's law enforcement policies.

please look past religion and don't confuse my god with any religion that makes a racial profiler, having hitmen in the mob, a grumpy old man that is going to condemn you to hell for not believing, or not acting "appropriately"
you can't say for sure there is no god.


people said for sure that something heavier than air could fly.

people said for sure that if you sailed to end of the world you would surely fall off.

people said for sure that something could not move faster than sound.

a lot of beliefs have crumbled.

and you can't say mine, i don't worship a different god from ANY religion, i just view mine in a different way.

and when it comes to it, we are ALL agnostic in the fact that we just don't know for sure one way or the other.

[This message has been edited by lostmind (edited 02-21-2001).]

[This message has been edited by lostmind (edited 02-21-2001).]

Hey! Those were exactly my thoughts but I would never have called myself an athiest because I didn't feel compelled to identify
with any group unless I felt that they were the right ones!

I came pretty clear that none of them were the right ones or else everybody would know they were the right ones. This suspicion was confirmed by several experiences I had with church and churchgoing people. The minister who stood and gave the specs and materials list for heaven was one, I knew that I would never believe that he was anything more than either lying to people with too much respect for his position to call him on it.

Or else they were fundamentally flawed in their ability to independantly reason, I mean that was just such a mindblowing thing ,

Now the people that I knew who were among his parishoners, they were killer, saintly sort of people and that is why I felf that the god they worshipped must be the "one," when he turned out to be the bearer of the most )(*&(*&^*&^$*&%#&%^%of all that info I'd ever gathered I accepted the existence of a major problem potentially being deeply deeply rooted in the concept of religion as I'd known it.

No one, anywhere knew for sure, about anything, only faith and the willingness to believe were available, and I had neither.


I knew that there were parts of things I'd heard at sermons(, in 6 and 7th grade I would go with friends to their churches)and so I heard Buddist, which I thought was really cool because of the topic of the sermon, the chanting was weird,

The nature of the sermon I thought was so much more useful and helpful and like, worth hearing ,than the singing and waiting and listening and all,

I never got anything positive out of the Catholic's other than that my dear Nanny was one.
The unitarian church was alright too, very diverse bunch of people, the minister was a gay woman and so anyhow I made a choice that I would take what I liked from religions, all of whom I guess felt that theirs was the way to worship

I chose to disregard any and all attempts by others or myself(though that never came up)to obligate me to eat the whole pie or just forget it all together.

I figured anyone who would agree to things they felt unsure about must be mentally impared in some way and all until I was , actually sometimes even now,
I felt that the zealous members of the various groups were some of the most unreal, scary,retarded in a real way,in their ability to accept w/o question that which was posed to them, people I could ever meet!

I did actually meet faith a few years later and that took some of them off the hook in my mind, some though ,were really the most utterly shallow, simple,minded non interesting people I'd ever met.

To me it seemed likeit must be a conspiracy, and I'd have no part of it. If I met people and thought "gee, good, smart, interesting group of people" and then come to find that they were religious, I'd be outtta there in a heartbeat.

I remember reading a book about self-parenting and being so excited and intrigued by the prescison in which it addressed so many things I'd pondered that I was truly excited to see how it wound up, it is still around here somewhere, with the pages I'd read curling upward and from the place I spotted the God word on , the pages have not been turned.

You say that were there no religion, rape and murder and thievery would run rampant. That is a path I'll let alone for now, I do have a bunch of stuff to do today, but I am not sure that the lack of religion would mean an abdication of certain basic decencies that I feel most people have factory installed.

I know I may be terribly wrong, but I think that gov. and religion both play parts, with gove being in part a means to control those who might tend to say," no I'll not have faith or abide by your tennants until you give me proof that they are corrrect" So basically, they just made up a whole new bunch of things.Much like the religious teachings only devoid of the god concept To encourage, force or otherwise strongly compell people to adhere to standards felt to be broadly enough based to provide an adequate net of security for the cumulative main wishes of most religions, and the money giving...well I think more than anything humans have shown a propensity toward greed and the willingness to involve either fully appraised or unwittingly ,other humans in the sort of thing that leads to an accumulation of money from a source other than trad'tnl
labor or service.

I could see a very very clear line in between the parts of religion that were theory and the ones offered up and how for business purps and mass appeal of the topic.

Most traditional religions are to me, kinda insulting to their congreagations and people them selves are to blame for opting to accept these pre packaged knowledge bases simply to feel more connected or to have like minded souls to talk to.

Companionship seems to be a human need and so those men, business men who happened upon a hellof a lead(or perhaps thought their way out of it), have developed some pretty impressive religions!
With the proper pessimistic doubting appproach, They all can be broken down to self serving in the end.
So why not forget about what anyone may think of picking and choosing the parts of religion you value most likely they too wish they could bring themselves to be truer, but the desire to be recognized as participant in a group is stronger than their resolve to think independantly.
Is yours? It is most noble ,almost ,that you voice the concern on behalf of the naysayers of smorgasbord religion, empathy will in some ways be very helpful w/ your thoughts, utterly paralyzing, left unchecked in others.

Life is very short, you've already figured out and validated the existence of the possibility of a modern take on traditional religion. One thing not to be ignored though is that while T.R. may not be the place to look for god or the nature of the universe, it does play an important part in centralyzing and defining our basic moral
givens and w/ the # and % of the worlds population that can be counted as memebers of any of these religions, then one can also say that that # is being schooled for a life in modern society in which these principle, more or less(what a coincidence) more or less, & discarding that which is superfluous and ultimately rooted in the religions founders or supporters needs more so than the worship of whatever it calls it.,Are absorbing the same basic set of lessons that it is entirely possible for one to reach on ones own.

So it is definitely serving it's purpose in a very general way , which is likely what it's purpose was meant to be in the big pic anyhow, all the methods of micro-management that exist from ant colonies to galaxies are valid while they are in existence and the most successful will probably go on to the next evolutionary level, so one might say that in a few thousand years or so, all people born will live in a world more in tune with religious variance all so much as a given with the debates having been debated over and over agin until it was clear that for whatever reason the majority of people came away with what they needed to know and so accredidation will be given all that is deserving of it, we don't have any problem looking back at the practices or beliefs of those civilizations that have come before us and lableing parts of their programs fundamentally flawed, so why whouldn't we assume the same will hold true for us?

Honestly.

I think that to have an ability within yourself to first consider, second ponder thoughtfull and then to adopt for yourself an open ended approach to religious investigation, spiritual growth, is a great thing!

. Live and let live, this is evolution in progress and we will not live to see the calm dismantling of the separatist religions for a common understanding. It was probably too much of a pain then and obviously it still is...so what does that mean?

I think it means that you and anybody really ought to do what they want, think what they want , say what they want and have faith that the underlying and predominantly , though not by a landslide,nature of humans , is to be right as it were or whatever the opposite of evil is. I think maybe that the scientific aspect of existence is so fragile, for example a life here the gone, hella fragfile,
so too probably the properties of matter , hella fragile, maybe that is why it has to take such a long time evolving to the next , incrimentally more positive w/o addt'l controls in place,level of existence

because the balance of positive and negative ions is so closely matched that to have any wonderous realization might just destablize the whole thing.

So there, that is more than enough I will will myself to leave this board until I've made all these calls at least once.

at least I'll force myself to be quiet and not write anymore of these rambling dissertations. Although it is good to be thinking more about things than worrying about what's gonna get fucked up next.

I think I'll print these latest few out and send them to him in jail, maybe it'll help him realize that actually he can't stand me and that no, he doesnt want to come back and try and work it out. HAHA, like i just said maybe a sudden influx of winkiness into his reality would serve to destabilize the whole dam thing! I do have a captive audience, tehe, good idea.



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=/\__/\=
>'0"0'<
>>>Y<<<

what do you guys think of fate? i don't believe in it, but it is a mindbender for me sometimes, when i am just thinking about things. can you trick fate?

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- religion is a crutch for the weak

i believe in the theory that the future already happened.

it goes along with the grandfather clause to time travel.

you can't go back and kill your grandfather so that you were never born.

if you did, you would never be born to travel back in time.

this goes to say that if the past is available so is the future; not saying time travel is impossible(in fact it's considered more possible than faster than light travel); but the fact it would have happened anyway.

you can't go suddenly decide to go back and visit woodstock in 1969, because if you did, no matter what in 1969 at woodstock you would've existed, even if it was before you were born.

Oh, so then the rest of our brain, as yet to be reavealed is simply hidden files? That's cool, simple too!

I like that, the knowledge of all that is to come and the capacity to deal with it.

Dejavu would be like an indicator that defrag was due, hhhhmmmmm.

Fate?, trick fate? No, imho, fate is the accute awareness of what to most anyone else would be simply one or another random intersection in an infinity of intersecting lines.

The acute is something we can ever affect, things will vary as they will it is all a matter of from where you are observing the subjects,objects orentities involved in the intersection, where one line crosses another is a deviation from being simply a line.

Most lines cross unremarkably the opposite of trick fate would be what invite blessing? so to strive to enrich all intersections and make deviations of a pleasant and productive nature might be the way to consciously oppose fate, all the same...deviations will vary in intensity both positively and negatively and we cannot control or do more than maintain a stable solid line as well suited for intersecting as possible.

The awareness aspect is what can be controlled so say you were ,in each waking moment of your life, overwhelmed by feelings or impulses that seemed so compelling as to take most of your energy for living away simply by having to contend with them, an appropriate course of action would seem to be to do whatever it was neccessary to address and endeavor to sate the intensity of the irregularity, the acute effect stems from experiencing a deviation from one moment to the next , one which is so drastic and unexpected,so not prepared for, or even familiar to anything that to date had been witnessed, imagined or speculated.

the line your life represented could be a piece of yarn., woven of many individual threads and say that at some point it had been pulled hard and consequently was thinner and less tightly intertwined than it had been in the spot where it had almost come apart, or if it had a knot or a place where the cat had chewed it all those areas on the line/yarn would be more likely to encounter less than routine intersections with other lines, more likely to get snarled separated severed or otherwise incur acute levels of deviation from one moment to the next , before and after the intersection.

If we are ulitimately on a journey toward complete awareness then this life certainly is bound to embodie practical experience in training hours logged of consciously seeking enlightenment, or whatever you want to call it.

Moments of acute awareness could be seen as visions of the future, having been narrowed while gazing into the past .

So what we experience as the ant about to be or being stepped on is fate, and the other end would be something like the ultimate outcome of the plight of the race or civilization to which the steppers great great grandchildren's grandchildren will have long become extinct before, you know what I mean?

To avoid fate the only practical thing that occurs to me is to strive to be as spiritually as well as physically close to and aware of all that you care for.

Distances in miles or years or relationships can only increase the distance between what had in one moment been, and what now ,in the next moment(on account of fate) is never again to be.

If people have discussed their views on death with one another then, although no conclusion can be absoulutely reached,- as per agreeing ahead of time on the desired disposition of the souls involved should one or the other die,-

At least a far greater closeness, nearness, awareness, to one another , will be assured, simply in expressing what they can during life, be certain of,

for instance, speculation on the intent( to the best of it's best suited to speculatet ability to speculate's)of one anothers conscious souls to remain close to one another despite loss of physical body . That is actually a reality that could be practiced or prepared for or simply acknowledged .Sharing of self in life may derive satisfaction or happiness from life as to what has been shared. Such an enhancment of what is customarily expected in a relationship might serve also,to lessen the intensity of acute painful awareness -experiencing fate- and should no drastic sudden variation in reality come the people involved will enjoy a more complete connection with their lives and that is prolly a good thing toward the ultimate goal , (if it is) of a complete connection with all things.

or

Fate sucks, it hurts alot the farther you are from the thing fate affects the worse fate is gonna hurt you. Be close both physically emotionally and spiritually then if fate happens to strike the seemingly forever distance it puts between those involved is not compounded by pre-existing distances that might have been avoided. Fate can suck, If is the hugest word I ever met.

Fate can suck good! "dear powers that be, I would like a good blow job" i think there is a sense of humor, not sure.

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EDUCATION IS FOR THE AS YET IGNORANT
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PHILOSOPHY IS FOR THE CURIOUS
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KNOWLEDGE IS FOR THE AGES


SO HOW DO YOU LIKE MY EDICT ISSUING HAT?

atheist666? what kind of name is that for an atheist. What do you mean to imply with 666? Surely nothing you believe in. But, yeah I don't think there is a God either.

Nice Hat, Grand Vizier Winkistuff

santa clause is real, it's jsut that none of us are good enough to get his presents.

did you know, that old saint nic came before christianity not vise versa.

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Cogito, ergo sum

Christmas was just a modernized pagan celebration. The days get longer in the end of december, so for sedentary-agricultral tipes, it was a sign that spring was coming.

hmmmm.....

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buRn

its called the grandfather paradox, not the grandfather clause, because it isn't a clause, its a paradox you idiot

forgive me oh enlightened one;

for shining your eternal brilliance on what can be compared to a slip of the tongue.

how did i ever get this far in my life while the whole time living in the lack of you illumination.

while my eyes may always have been open you have giving me that which i've always desired;

you have given me the ability to see.

JACKASS.

your family puts their pictures on christmas cards don't they?

i think that religion was just a way to to explain the unexplained before it turned into a form of covenrment. but now science has come far enough to explain all those former unexplainable things that i question gods existence.

it drives me knucking futs

quote:

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i hate people that ask for the proof of god.

since you think everything is meaningless and there is nothing after you die.

why don't you go kill yourself, instead of enduring the misery in this world.

or could it be you are the one who is truly weak.

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Sorry im a bit slow in replying, but i havent been here for a while.

This is my reason for not killing myself, and i think it works out for every decent atheist...

I personaly do not belive in life after death, i belive that it ends, but the reason i do not kill myself is because if i do my mum and dad will blame them selves no matter what i do or say before hand it will have a serious negative impact on their lives and my brothers and sisters. The only way i could stop thier suffering would be to kill them. but that would have a negative effect on thier families, so i would have to kill them this would eventualy mean i would have to kill the entier population of earth... but then i come to the inevitable moral dilema, What right do i have to end someone else's life, what if i am rong about the after life, and if i am rong i have no right to prematurly end other peoples lives. and so i must carry on liveing, making the most of this shit hole that i have been placed in, for my death might satisfiy me but it would have a detrimental effect on the people around me, which would disrupt thier lives and i have no right to ruin other peoples lives for my own self gain. One big fuck up. but ah well... its not that bad.

I see god as a force not a being. Therefore as a force it could not communicate with humans or any other species.Thats why I think religion is a total hoax. The blind can't lead the blind. I had a point when I started but I forgot it. Maybe I already stated it. I think I'll just go back to putting together my jigsaw puzzle.

wow... never seen this post before... its a pity that i wasn't here when things got really hot. then again... same old pain.

quote:

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Originally posted by lostmind:
so you're saying you can't disprove the existance of santa claus ?

[This message has been edited by lostmind (edited 02-21-2001).]

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Actuaa ol' santa is real, he lived a few thousand years ago in europe riding a horse, giving presents to good kids and he had a helper that used to rip bad kids. He was a part of a church, don't know which though. Probaly christianity since christians are so obsessed about hell and accusing other people to go to hell when they hjave faults to.