I can't help but feel a certain contempt, being a rational person of sound mind, for the intellect of anyone who takes this obviously cobbled together, contrived, jerry-rigged religion seriously. In the office where I work, there is a rather obvious correlation between one's lack of intelligence and the degree to which christian piety is taken seriously & considered a virtue. To these people, I gently point out that the relationship between their "heavenly father" and his "children" is really nothing like that of any parent and child, save that which would be called incredibly abusive by any remotely civilized person. Rather, it reminds me of the relationship between a terrorist kidnapper (sometimes defensible; one man's freedom fighter, you know) and his hostage. Their god, positing that he exists, can beat us, starve us, brainwash us, and humiliate us at will, and apparently has no compunction about doing so. The christians, at best, have succumbed to a "hostage mentality". As the experience of hostages shows, after a time, the hostage can start to relate to his captor, and such is his captor's control over his quality of life, begins to feel gratitude over the slightest indulgence, the most minor privilege, granted by his captor. This is the hostage mentality. Anyone with real guts and dignity, like Terry Anderson in Lebanon, will not succumb to it. Christians are fools at worst, and wimps at best, because they have literally taken the love of their captor and tormentor as a spiritual law. Tell them that, in the unlikely event that their vengeful sky-god of the hebrews exists, that you would have the guts to spit in his face, and curse his name.

------------------

Amen to that.

preach the good word, brotha

hmmm.

You tell God that he is evil when your time comes.

yet another one that confuses god with religion.

they are not the same.

i've said it before and i'll say it again:

religion was the first law enforcement service, the promise of hell or everlasting damnation if you don't live to expectations that the lord your god has set up for you.

does that sound like god.

sounds like a fucking cop to me.

the promise of jail and a record that follows you your whole life, if you don't live to the expectations this particular society has set for you.

now remember kids, SATAN LOVES YOU

Lokil - (I wonder what's the purpose of this post?)

Lumerio - (In a retarded voice) - heheheheheh
This'll get Lokil back!!! heehehehe, BOY HOWDY!!!!


You're from Flori-DUH, eh???

------------------
You're in a laundry room, You're in a laundry room, the clue just came to you?, oh.

You sir, are an idiot. I'm not going to point out the simple-mindedness of this post until after Bar Room Hero does. That way I can just say whatever he forgets to.

And just for the record, I'm athiestic and I do dislike the thought of an all-powerful patriarchal God who tells us what to do. But I live and let live.

err take it from me you should not fuck with God. it is a very bad idea.

i will say this once again...

there is no god
there is no devil
it was made up by people who cant handle the truth and their all a bunch of hipicrits and want us to spend our whole life worshiping sumthin that doesnt even exist. well im not doin it, im gonna live mah life the way i want to. how can people actually believe there is this all mighty powerfull supreme being controling the hole world. its all crap. DONT GIVE IN TO THEIR BELEIFS!!!

[This message has been edited by Dewtard (edited 02-03-2001).]

"there is no god
there is no devil
it was made up by people who cant handle the truth and their all a bunch of hipicrits and want us to spend our whole life worshiping sumthin that doesnt even exist. well im not doin it, im gonna live mah life the way i want to. how can people actually believe there is this all mighty powerfull supreme being controling the hole world. its all crap. DONT GIVE IN TO THEIR BELEIFS!!!"

you just don't want to admit you believe in God because then you would have to admit what you are doing is wrong. I don't believe the is a God i KNOW the is a God.

Its not a matter of admiting anything, I would be a fool to beleive in god. If i did believe in god i would just have to confess my sins to some priest and everything is forgivin, right?? Thats dumb. There are more people than you think that dont believe in god that arent just sayin they dont so they dont have to admit wut their doing is wrong.
I honestly dont, why is that so hard to accept?? How do you KNOW there is a god? What makes u believe it? Because the bible says there is? Do you think that god wrote the bible saying you must do everything this book says?...As it comes floating down to earth from the heavens in a shimmering ray of sunlight...
riiiiiiight. Excuse me if my facts are a little mixed up, i dont have a bible study every week.

I dont have anything against you, i have a lot of friends that are christians. I just dont think because someone says there is sumthin everyone has to believe it or else your this EVIL person sentenced to hell for all of eternity. Everyone beleive in what they know and ill beleive in what i know.

I know theres nothing anyone can say to me to make me beleive in a god, and the same goes for you the other way around, and I respect that. It's your desicion, and its not up to anyone else but you. And the same goes for me. So dont tell me that I do beleive in god and just dont admit it. 'Cause its not true.

It gets rather annoying everytime someone comes to my door holding a holy book of matramony (sp?) telling me to start reading it and i will become a better man. You people always say "We will listen to what you have to say if you listen to our opinion as well." But whats the point? Its not like you see us walking around trying to get everyone to not believe in god, so why are you doing it to us? Be what you want and let us be what we want.

There you go PcThUg2ooo, I rewrote the whole thing just for you. Sorry about all the typing slang. I was in a REAL hurry and had to get it done as fast as possible.

[This message has been edited by Dewtard (edited 02-04-2001).]

All I'll add to this is that people who think such really don't know what they are talking about. The Christian God is a jealous God and yes he shows it and yes he says he will. His love for his people is so strong it's obsessive, but unconditional. So we have the ability to walk all over God. Where such things can happen between two humans one of them usually ends up very hurt and distraught. But not God. He has the ability to strike back harshly and will do so. It's a "I'll give you everything, but I demand respect"

Furthermore if you think about it, the relationship is that of a parent and child. Parents tell their children what to do in order for them to do better in life and/or stay alive. Reprimand is what the child gets if he does other wise. There are many times I'm glad I felt the pain of a whoopin rather than the pain of some of life's dangers. Sometimes I wish my parents would have been more strict, hell there were times when even at 19 I could have used a good beating, and the same goes for many people.

So what's so bad about that?

What is bad is the human end, because we have the tendency to whatever the hell we want we end up with poverty, war, diseases, etc. I think humans have been far more wrathful than any God will ever be. And even worse we mock God by using his name to commit violence. I hear the argument, "Christians killed so many in the name of God". No they didn't, they killed in vain and made God an excuse to do so. I'm sure none of them are sitting at the hand of God now. How do you think God feels when people do such horrible things and claim that it's because of him, they are doing it? Well shit, I'd be pretty pissed off too and quite vengeful. I can't say I blame the guy and that I'd probably do the same things if I were in his shoes. I mean hell, that's like me killing your parents and claiming that you wanted me to do it and hell even payed me. Wouldn't you want me in quite the pain as well? I mean hell I just offed your family and in your name! Maybe I just didn't like them and you were my excuse. Maybe you are proven innocent down the road, but there will always be suspiscion, and people will lose respect for you.

I think that is precisely what is happening to God.

Dewtard,
if yah must tahype like ah infant puhlease try to get sum of tha werds rite?
or howz about u spend ah little of yah cash on a dikshonary.


p.s. just as i dislike religion being shoved down my throat i find it really annoying people trying to feed me their views on how religion is a scam.

Sorry PcThUg2ooo, but it can be said once in awhile. So many posts go out about peoples theories on god, i think its ok to for me to say my opinion that there is no god once or twice.

dewtard


prove it.

You know it cant be proved, thats why i said its my "opinion". But you cant prove it the other way around. Thats just the way it is.

i apologize dewtard.

i didn't see the "my opinion" in your post.

i rescind my previous post.

Lumerio raises the point that, for Christians, God is a person that controls you life, that can brainwash you a can generally treat you like a kidnapper would treat a hostage.

But isn't our relationships with our parents like that. As infants our only source of protection and love were our parents. They fed you and kept you alive at their own expense just out of love. They could have as easily have thrown you out with the trash treat you horribly

I belive that our relationship with god is the same. God is our watchful parent that is looking over us. Although he probably has uses direct, physical power in this world because he wants to preserve our liberty, he acts as a mental net to let us know that even when everything looks bad and you are all alone, their is god.

Religious people are more confident and probably more able to survive hard times because of God and also because of the support they get from church.

Rob you started all this!

You compare my God to a terrorist kidnapper?

Quite the contrary.


We cheat
we steal
we kill his creation and curse his name
we fight amongst ourselves over petty and temporary possessions
we live our lives based upon bragging rights and social standard: not his standard
we rape
we soil ourselves with the filth of immoral sex
We envy
we lie
we purposefully cause others harm in order to secure our place amongst the material filth hoarded by profiteering rabblerousers who are only out for personal gain.
we hate.
we don't hate that which is evil as he instructs.
we hate each other.
we refuse his teachings.
we reject him as a father.
we reject him as our creator.
we believe that good works alone will bring one salvation.
WE BRUTALLY TORTURED AND KILLED HIS SON


We are his delinquent children. we all deserve to burn in Gehenna for our wrongdoings. It is only by grace that we stay afloat.

I don't mean to get all "Sinners in the Hand of an Angry God" on you, but your speculation on this matter is wearying at best.

You call Christians cowards and wimps? You see God's tests as an act of cruelty because you don't realize that that's what they are: tests. You shy away from his tests for some reason. and yet you call US cowards and wimps.

Hostage mentallity:

This world and the people in it beat us, starve us, "brainwash" us, humiliate us, backstab us, lie to us, kill us, intentionally poision us with their diseases, rape us, torment and torture us, and many MANY more.

yet, humans as the fools they are can't get enough of the world's drugs, its sex, its lies, its material possesions, its cruelty, its vehement and blatant corrutption, and its endless flow of false witnesses.

we indulge in them.
we have taken the scorn of our planet and transformed from it a new moral code: none.

who has the captive mentallity now? who is the disgusting and revolting filth which a normal person wouldn't even want to touch.

We are.

You judge that which you do not understand. do you fear the Christian way of life? too holy? too goody-two-shoes?

I would rather believe in a God, even a false god for that matter, than to trust in what this cursed rock of a planet brings to me. Those who do are fools who can only see what is directly infront of them and what is displayed in numbers and figures and red tape.

I shames me to see how many of you, those who i consider good friends, believe and trust his words.


"Its not a matter of admiting anything, I would be a fool to beleive in god. If i did believe in god i would just have to confess my sins to some priest and everything is forgivin, right?? Thats dumb. There are more people than you think that dont believe in god that arent just sayin they dont so they dont have to admit wut their doing is wrong.
I honestly dont, why is that so hard to accept?? How do you KNOW there is a god? What makes u believe it? Because the bible says there is? Do you think that god wrote the bible saying you must do everything this book says?...As it comes floating down to earth from the heavens in a shimmering ray of sunlight...
riiiiiiight. Excuse me if my facts are a little mixed up, i dont have a bible study every week."

The confession of which you speak is a CATHOLIC tradition. it has nothing to do with God's love and grace. its just a way for the Catholic Chruch to keep people in line.

I for one am non-denominational.

I KNOW THERE IS A GOD becuase i have seen His miracles first hand. i am living proof that there is a God. Through intense prayer, a friend of mine's leg, which was 5 inches shorter than the other grew that extra five inches. he walks like a normal and perfectly shaped human being. that, among others is PROOF that there is a God. Would the boy's lef have grown through any other means? absolutely not.

Dewtard, i believe strongly in God. But because i am not catholic, as you assume all Christians to be otherwise you would not use them as an example for all Christians, am i not a true Christian? I have stared death in its cancerous and rotting face and not rejected my God. Certainly the least of you cannot sway my beliefs.

it is quite a pity that i am scattering pearls amongst swine. i just wish my words will fall upon un hardened hearts and attentive ears. if the least of anyone reads this and gets something positive out of it, then it was all worth it.

Trippy, you can take it from here. i hope i haven't left anything out that was too important. ill leave the camel treatment to you.

** stands up and applauds bar room for bearing his soul like that **

personally though bar room i don't believe prayer really works;

if god has a master plan, whatever you prayed for better be in that plan, or it wasn't a very good plan to begin with.

and contrary to what many believe, but everything that happens to you will eventually have repercussions across the world, even the most insignificant event will start a reaction from all involved, and then moves down the line to all that are involved with them and so on.

plus, i follow the theory that the universe ended the instant it began as well,

which means it already happened.

but you are absolutely right, people don't believe in god because the world is shit, but they don't realize that god's not responsible for the shit, for that they need only look in the mirror.

'plus, i follow the theory that the universe ended the instant it began as well'
oh get out of that limited rut. Time is just a limitation of the human nervous system. The quantum truth of it is, that all 'events' happen in the same interval.

'even the most insignificant event will start a reaction from all involved, and then moves down the line to all that are involved with them and so on.'
ahh the sweet echoes of misinterpreted chaos theory, every iteration of your action has less and less of an effect. The actual amount of the effect is directly proportional to how predictable it is.

(sorry to be so confrontational, but i'm tired)

-ugu
'that which is falling, should also be pushed; that which is crawling should also be crushed'
boyd rice

eeep. I neglected to read Bar room hero's peice. To one of such unshakeable faith, i have but one thing to ask.

Why does god want to cause us such pain and suffering? It cannot be a test, because god is all knowing, and already knows exactly what we will do. He cannot possibly want us to learn something, if he is all powerful, he could devise another way for us to gain the information.

I would be interested to hear your answer to this problem. I personally would feel scared if i truly belived in an omnipotent being of such malevolence.

-ugu

Bar room says: "I KNOW THERE IS A GOD becuase i have seen His miracles first hand. i am living proof that there is a God. Through intense prayer, a friend of mine's leg, which was 5 inches shorter than the other grew that extra five inches. he walks like a normal and perfectly shaped human being. that, among others is PROOF that there is a God. Would the boy's lef have grown through any other means? absolutely not."

Dude, if I haven't made it clear by now, I totally respect your right to believe in God as strongly as you want. But let's back up to this one little paragraph of proof, and allow me to relate another true story.

There was a karate master named Sam Brodsky who did a demonstration for his students, in which he was to break nine inch-thick concrete slabs with one punch. When he attempted it, he got through seven, but in the process destroyed most of the small bones in his knuckles. The doctors operated, said it would be fifteen to eighteen weeks before any rehab could begin, and likely a year before he regained partial use of his hand.

What Brodsky did was this- every night, when he went to bed, he visualized a group of little construction men, with mortar, cement, all the tools needed for building, climbing down into his cast and working on his hand. He did that for three and a half weeks. Two weeks after that, he went back to the doctor, and was told the bones had "amazingly" healed- but the knuckles were all frozen together.

After that, he visualized the same team going and working on his hand, except with oil, files, sandpaper, graphite.. things that help make smooth surfaces. After another seven weeks, he went back to the doc, and to their shock, he was completely healed. Six months after the initial accident, he did the demonstration, even though they had told him it would be a year before he could use his hand at all.

It was, in essence, a miraculously speedy recovery created with the power of the mind. As easily as you might say it was, in fact, God who fixed his hand so quickly, I could say it your friend's strength of faith, not God, who healed him. (No, I'm not saying you will. Just that you could.) It's all in your perspective.

If I may make a suggestion- you seem so distraught over offering these pearls of truth to us swine, so instead, give us the cubic zirconia of suggestion. It probably won't bother you as much to say, "This is what I think," as opposed to, "I'm right, why won't you listen to me!"

That is a particularly hard question. I, as a mere human, cannot begin to comprehend the reason for his ways. No one can. God did give use free will. But it is that free will that can be our downfall. Sometimes a test of faith is a good thing.

Keep in mind the trial's of Job:

Amidst the death of his loved ones, amidst his riches going down the toilet, amidst the sickness and boils inflicting him, he kept his faith.

His own wife, practically a part of him (they were of "one flesh" after all), begged him to curse God and die. to end his suffering.

That was not God speaking. God won't tell you to curse his own name.

That was a test. So it very well may be the reason for suffering may be a test. That is not to say that all suffering is a test from God. Keep in mind that Job's wife was not led by God to speak. I don't doubt that it was Satan's influence.

You see, I have realized that God uses all people in his plan. Even unbelievers.

He uses his faithful followers as a shining example and those who scorn and curse him as a horrible warning. after all, God never said that it would be easy. He only said that it would be worth it.


Spiffy.

Did not Pharoah (which ironically means "Great House" in egyptian) have court magicians who could mimic the effects of the 10 plagues of God's wrath? In the book of Exodus, Moses put his staff in the water and it turned to blood. His court magicians did the same and the same happened. The same happened with the plague of frogs and all of the others. Save one. The Angel Of the Lord struck down the firstborn of every household.

It wasn't Moses who parted the Red Sea. It was him in body of course, but he was not doing it by his own power. God worked through him.

So yes, miraculous works can be made by the mind, and many other things. But there is only one type that i choose to believe in. Those which come from him.

I hope this answers both of your questions


When i say "scattering pearls amongst swine"
i mean that perhaps i am speaking my heart to those who would just pry more and try to prove me wrong. Those who's intent is to try shake my faith by attacking my character and beliefs.

but why would god test us? He knows exactly what we'll do, free will be damned.

I have answered this. No one can possibly comprehend his reasons. That is like asking, why God created us?

Basically, it can be summed up like this.

Humans cannot enjoy both free will and a world free from sin. Once God chose to create human beings with free will, it was up to humans as to whether there was sin or not. God created the possibility of evil, but it was humans who actualized
that potentiality.

God might tolerate certain short-range evils in order to achieve long-range goods that humans cannot foresee.

Imagine a bear in a trap, and a hunter who
wants to liberate him. The hunter tries and fails to win the bear's confidence, so he has no choice but to shoot the bear full of tranquilizers to knock him out so he can be freed of the trap. The terrified bear thinks the hunter is trying to kill him. He doesn't understand that the hunter is acting out of
compassion.

God does the same thing to us sometimes, and we can't comprehend why he does it any more than the bear can understand the motivations
of the hunter. We simply have to trust God.

Imagine the tranquilizers as the test, and the trap as the filth of the world. What we think is harming us may actually be doing us good. God's reason for his action is his own.
It can't be defined by anything else than this: His. The tranquilizers either break us, or teach us a valuable lesson. They destroy those who do not learn from them and it is they are doomed to repeat that failure until it is corrected. The others, those who learn, associate the trap with the horrible sting and pain of the darts and so, will turn from the trap and live the life that God has created for them.

Yes, God already knows the outcome of the trials which we face, but what good is it if he doesn't let that person experience it? Just because he knows doesn't mean that he interacts directly with his creation. Its like playing a fighting game with an invincibility cheat. You know the outcome, your victory. but you still wantt the other player to experience it. (REAL BAD ANALOGY: comparing theology with video games)


i hope that this clears things up a bit

Ok, as not to feel left out this is my opinion, it goes a little something like:

I truely belive that no God really exists, i find the idea of something other than myself controlling my life a little scarey anyways,
I believe that thousands of years ago someone was born named Jesus but i dont think he was the son of any God.
I belive the answer to if there is such thing as a God has something to do with where we started from, why we were created with a universe, the chances of us all being here in this world speaking to each other via internet is like 1 in a billion billion.
Anyways,
Sceintists belive that the universe is expanding at an enormous rate and it is to my knowledge or thoery that after it has reached its maximum it will contract at even a greater speed recoiling us into some sort of big bang thoery all over again, we could have talked about this millions of times in the past (this could just be me feeling an unusual sense of dejiavu my whole life) anyways I stongly belive that people already know the answers to if there is a God and why we are here, but they are smart enough to keep there mouths shut because of the lapce it could make and destroy the whole cirlce of time. I think that when the universe does end and contract that humans will not be around to witness this as being the moronic creatures that we are I think we will not even have the chance to colonise space before we destroy ourselves. (its a miracle we have come this far i think)
Anyways the people in time that may have come close to the answers (Stephen Hawkins, Einstien maybe Jesus was a person born that could see outside the boundries that most people dont.) are the people that I think can start to comprehend what it is all about and that some time either in the future or in the past (which ones which, who knows?) that some very intelligent person will find out. The problem i think is that humans at the moment are to ignorant to wonder this and if it was discoverd it would be way to complex to comprehend. It's the lazy, mindless, media-brainwashed, stupid majority of the world that FUCK up everything, if only more people would try to discover the true meaning of life and existance we may find the answer to if a God really exists, and it will sound obsurd, even laughable when we find out what has really made the creation of us.
Anyways what do i know? im a 17 year old kid thats just dropped out of school 6 months before he would have completed it and found himself a lame ass job building computers.
I think that the answers will unfold in time and i hope just hope that humans havent fucked up the earth before the meaning is discovered (I dont think any of us will have to worry though considering we wont live to see this end of the world or whatever God calls it (retribution?)
Anyways this is my simple opinion on the subject and whenever i think about this i get a strange feeling in my lower back that creeps up my spine and into the lower half of my head, this is strange and freaks me out a bit.
Well the answer will be found i think when we find out how and why we were created, creation find that answer and you will have answered the question of religion.
P.S. Another thought is that communities need that little thing called "hope" to latch onto their megre little live because they cant face the facts that they die and its the end all of their concousness. im really hoping that in my lifetime they find a way to hardcopy my concouseness onto a disk or computer so i can see what happens after time (not that im hopefull or anything because the chances are even more remote than us speaking here in this universe as humans that have invented all these creations).

Goodbye my head hurts now this is the second theory ive had to write, my first was much greater detail and in depth but i tried to send two posts at the same time and this one was deleted, That really pissed me off. Anways I hope this one doesnt fuck up it was basically the same but a much shortened version.

It was said best by, of all people, Satan in "End of Days":

"God's got the greatest PR in history. If something good happens, it's because he wished it; if something bad happens, God works in mysterious ways." (Perhaps not word for word, but that's the gist.)

You have the right to believe what you want. The rest of us have the right to believe what we want. I dislike preaching, so the temptation to say "please don't preach" is there, but I wouldn't- you have the right to post as you please. At the very least though, I must ask.. you're an intelligent guy, but you seem so unshakably convinced of God's presence.. do you at least realize how other people could reasonably see the same things you do and not believe in what you do?

absolutely spiffy. Other people have different minds and different beliefs. What one person sees as a miracle, one may see as an occurance of every day life. it may even be what one may see as an act of God, the other can copy through majikal incantations of some sort or another and has seen it done millions of times. its all in what you place your faith in. im not the elitist bastard many of you may take me for . there are other faiths out there that claim a savior and that garuntee salvation, and it is up to the person in question to make that decision themselves: whether to place trust in a faith, to not believe in anything, place their trust in science, or create their own religon.

yeah, i saw End of Days. Their manifestation of Satan was crazy in the end of the movie!! HOT DAMN!!! I just wish it had turned into a real Arnold movie and he woulda pulled out an M60 and popped that sucker back to the firey pit from whence he came.


but anyway, i understand how you feel. about what satan said in the movie, Christians tend to "strategically sugar coat things" (looking from a non-believer perspective) to make them seem like they have a legit faith.

That statement, in fact, i don't doubt one bit. I believe that each event in a person's life that God either lets happen or protects us against is transformed into a good thing.

for example: i am glad that i got cancer. had i not, i wouldn't be where i am today. i wouldn't have as strong faith. certainly that cannot be looked down upon to have something horrible be turned into something good.

it takes faith to praise God if something sucky happens. a true Christian would follow God wherever. it is His divine will that is to be done. not that of man.

i am not preaching, i am simply answering someone's question. the thing that really gets to me, is that when people bash my faith, it is accepted and others join in. when i defend it by not bearing my teeth, but my own soul instead, its called preaching and shoving my beliefs down people's throat.

i personally hate it when people who have some grudge against my faith seem to speak openly against it and when i, its sole defender amongst those who hate it, defend my beliefs i am silenced and told not to preach.

rather a defender of the weak than an opposer of the masses.

I'm trying to keep it in mind that you didn't just randomly post about the power of God, and that this is in response to a pretty dickheaded post (thankfully recognized as such by the writer). You're right, you can (and should) defend what you believe in, and it should be looked at in that light. There are, however, no doubt a lot of people here who were raised with a Christian background, but whose faith went different ways. When one is failed by the god that's supposed to make things right, they tend to get pissed off at him, the religion around him, and by default, the people who support the religion. More often, they realize that the religion itself is faulty, but it still comes down on the believers.

So you've got the wrath of those who are pissed at God coming at you, plus the wrath of those who think God isn't the Christian ideal, but who are still pissed at Christianity, minus the relative few who have felt no anger or have gotten past their anger to give you a fair shake. You ain't winning the numbers game here.

To all these people, your defense sounds exactly like the preaching we all used to hear from priests, ministers, et al. about God's glory. I'm sure you realize that. It doesn't excuse saying "You go man!" to someone who comes and eviscerates the religion with some scathing post (tell me you weren't thinking that right then, eh? Eh?). But it's also something that could be put a little bit differently, and would then probably get more people to listen to what you have to say.

Like I said, you're a smart guy, and I'm sure you know most, if not all, of this already. Sometimes it helps to hear it from someone else, so I'm saying it. Even if not, I do hope that this thread will finally get some people to start looking at the flip sides of life's coins with a less judgemental eye.

When one is failed by the god that's supposed to make things right, they tend to get pissed off at him, the religion around him, and by default, the people who support the religion. ----

how would you defien failed ? Because God wasnt your special magic genie >? Should totally ignore all other factors and serve Spiffy's existence ?

that the religion has failed ? Love , turn the other cheek , bless evil , forgive and help all who are in need or ask ?


yeah it's rather evident the shortcomings of the belief isnt it ?


Im a pacifist and a vegetarian , now Im gonna proceed to start a war and consume meat . Damn the ideals of vegetarianism and pacifism evidently they have failed .

If someone lives a good life, then their entire family is killed in a train wreck, would you blame them for being pissed off at the powers that be?

Some people lose faith more quickly than others, but for each of those people, something happened to make them feel that what they'd been taught wasn't the way things are. For me, it was once I realized that the priests and nuns at my church were only concerned with showing everyone how good they were as clergy, not so much in being good Christians. My favorite example is this- when the time came to get confirmed, we had to take a written test, and those who failed didn't get confirmed.

At least, that was the theory.

Half the class failed. Instead of saying, hey, you obviously don't care, so you don't get confirmed, every single one of us (I failed too, albeit by a single point) went in to talk to the head nun of the religion class and "learn" the right answers. There was no reason to do that other than to avoid having to tell all these parents why that their children would have to take the year over, and in turn, make the teachers look bad.

My second favorite example is actually from that very same test. One question was this: "What does Christmas mean to you?" In my naivete, I figured this would be easy- it's an opinion question, so I can't get it wrong. My answer: "Giving and receiving gifts." It was the truth. They didn't like the truth. Two points off (did I mention I failed by one point?). I never had a real good vibe about some of the people there, but that laid it all out for me. You either conform or you leave. I left.

For anyone else, you'd have to ask them. Each of them has their own definition of how they were failed, betrayed, abandoned, whatever they want to call it.

Just rolled a joint outa bible paper.

Smoking the heavenly father...

waayyyyyyyy cool.

You're going to Hell.

------------------
Lokil

first of all..."When one is failed by the god that's supposed to make things right, they tend to get pissed off at him, the religion around him, and by default, the people who support the religion. ----"

--so then i would also suppose that the opposite is true, that when somebody is completely lost in life and is saved by God, that he would tend to praise that god and want to spread the love he has found to all of the people that don't support the religion...

secondly, spiffy, you are saying that one of the reasons that you aren't a christian is because the clergy in your church was relating a test to your faith or to God's acceptance of you. i think you are also saying that these people are basically hypocrites, because they are teaching christianity, but are being selfish and trying not to make themselves look bad at the expense of others. but who says they are perfect? in the bible, during the time when Jesus walked the earth, the Pharisees (sp?) controlled the churches and preached to the people. but when Jesus came, he dissed these people and said that they are not preaching what God really wants them to preach. these supposedly "holy" people were sinners. i am *not* trying to judge the members of your old church, either, because we are all sinners. I am just saying that in my opinion, their word is not necessarily the Law, they sin just like we all do.

And lastly, to some argument way back wherever...(okay well now i am going to mix two of yalls posts together even though i know you don't necessarily believe the same thing)
pcthug said that "I truely belive that no God really exists, i find the idea of something other than myself controlling my life a little scarey anyways," but yet, one of the main reasons, if i am not mistaken (which if i am, feel free to correct me), that spiffy left his church is because he disagreed with his clergy. in effect, he (or she? i dunno... sorry if its she, because i assume all people are men) is letting them control his life. it was not his decision--he was going to get confirmed, but since they did this stupid test, he had to leave. so how is that controlling your own life?

To clarify: It wasn't that specific instance that pushed me away from the church. Once I was 9 or 10 years old, the entire vibe of the religion classes were that of, "I'm right, you're wrong, don't bother fighting me". It was the best example of that behavior, however. Also, I didn't have to leave. In fact, I didn't. Like I said, I had to talk to the nun and tell her what she wanted to hear, after which I got confirmed (and proceeded to never go to church again- I had only done that much because my mom made me go).

I don't expect anyone to be perfect. Is it too much to ask, though, to allow someone to ask questions about apparent inconsistencies without acting like it's a horrible thing to be doing? I don't; apparently they thought differently.

Does my logic make more sense now?

I'd like to go back a few posts and field something someone asked before.

Why would an all-knowing god want to test us? He already knows the answer.

Imagine preparing for a test. You study, you read, you discuss with others to find out the answers.

Then you go to class the next day, walk in the room, sit down. You're ready for this test, you know all the answers, you think you'll ace it.

The teacher walks up to you and tells you that you failed.

"How did I fail? We didn't even take the test!" you ask.

"Trust me, I know you'll fail." he says.

How would that make you feel? After all your work and everything you know, would you simply take his word? Or would you want to take the test anyway?

Personally, I think it's us who needs to prove what we are... to whatever powers that prevail, and to ourselves.

You know what? I'm not even saying that's the right answer.

What I am trying to get at is that there can be reasons for being tested that aren't based on spite, vengence, or anger. There very well can be reasons based on love, teaching, and all such other virtues associated with a Christian god. With our limited knowledge, we simply can't assume anything about the motives behind the this test called life.

I may not have answered why, but I certainly proved that it doesn't have to be because he's evil, or hates us.

i don't even believe he's testing us.

man-kind is so arrogant individually that we cannot believe that bad things would happen to us.

and when they do and we question it, instead of hearing the truth, that there are other players in this world besides you, who have their own hopes dreams and desires and you just happened to get in their way, we are told god is testing you.

Well, shit, if we're going towards the "are we being tested" question, how about this- God wrote the world's program, and bullshit is part of the AI that we have to deal with every day. God set it up to happen at random intervals, so in that sense, he IS testing us, but it's not so important that he's specifically picking out each bit of shit to drop on our heads at any given moment.

Or maybe God went and made a program for a perfect world, but it's buggier than an unpatched Diablo 2, and he took the 7th, 8th, 9th, and 10th days to go snowboarding, so it's still in its initial release stage.

If god created the universe , and heknows everything that has happened, and will happen, what's the point? Maybe we're all puppets in the biggest play in existance. All for the amusment of one being. It's a rather disturbing thought, but something I've been pondering for years.

ok first off Diluted your a sick fuck who is going to burn in Hell and be raped by the devil.
and if God doesn't exsist then why is there a whole book "The Bible" on all the things He and His Son did?

Bwahahahaha.

If it's in a book, it must be true!

green monster,

that was, to say the least, less than intelligent.

if you are going to post a rebuttal, green monster, make it worth posting.

being a jerk in the name of God or in his defense is idiocy.


And bongman

i don't understand your perspective. you said before that it is the stigma inherent in christianity that you hate and yet you are all for what that guy said.

is your beef with me, or my faith.

[This message has been edited by Bar room hero (edited 02-26-2001).]

ok sorry im new hgere and im slitrily drunk right now so i may just sya a bunch of dum shit. and im tryin rto back up christiniyt so im just making a sad atempd to hel-p 9ou righty now. FUCK YA'LL!!!! BIOCTHS!!!!!!!!!!

ok bongbitch or i mean bongman how about you go shove a bong up your ass since you enjoy that kind of thing.
and to bar room loser i was trying to help you out with that loser bitch known as diluted because what he said about rolling a joint out of a Bible page really pissed me off so cut me some slack man im on your side.

Bar room, My opinions have matured in the last 6 months.

Diluted, Kick ass, I've smoked a joint out of a bible as well.

Green monster, May god forgive you. It's your only hope.


Bwahahahaha. I love me.

While i appreciate your 'help' on the matter, green monster, you are doing more harm than good. that is all i am saying. and insulting me makes that point clear.

Bongman. please elaborate. wouldn't making the judgement that Christianity in its entirity is wrong a regression rather than a maturing?

again, is your beef with me, or my faith? if it is against, Christianity in general, or christians, i would like to know. if your problem is with christians, myself included, well, i don't know what to say. i thought we were alright with each other.

if it is about Christianity, recognizing our differences on the matter, can we put them behind us? i don't want to take sides against you bongman. i honestly don't.

i am not your enemy.

[This message has been edited by Bar room hero (edited 02-26-2001).]

I no longer feel personaly threatened by chriatianity.

I no longer care what christians have done in the past. I don't believe christianity is benifitful to the future of America or the world.

For example most christians have a strong dislike of drug use. Im moving away from drug use. However Im not happy that the religious community crusades against drugs. That our government can be influenced by a religious group. Our country is based on the constitution. I believe the constitution is fair and good. When religion begins infringing on the constitution I am unhappy.

Im still very afraid of christianity. Seeing people whipped into such a frenzy from something that is so uncertain scares me a hella lot.

Bar room, you scare me. Alot. I hope I never have to met you in person. I don't want to be cruxified.

In final. I've whipped myself into a very freeful state. BTW, www.dressupjesus.com

I printed out my Jesus. Cut him out. And taped him to my moniter. He brings me good luck.

In a even more so finale. I promise to pay a tith if you let me become a hermit.

this nation was founded with the phrase "under God." that wasn't just another part of the pledge of alligance and other morning routines. the nation was founded under the Christian God.

i don't understand how a God fearing person like myself can strike fear into a person whom i would rather be a good friend to. Bongman, i am no politician. you know this. there is no honest way to make a decent living through politics because those who do are silenced by the dishonest masses.

it really pains me that you feel this way. our differences aside, i see you as a friend. even when our differences come between us, i do not see you as an adversary. rather as an intellectual equal. if friendship, even a shaky one, is unattainable at this point, all i can say is Good day.

Bar room stop beating me! Please stop! Ow ow OW!

But seriously. I have no qualms with you. Just all the people doing gods work by killing and yelling at me.

I would hope you wouldn't try to infringe on my rights. I'll be your friend Bar room. I didn't come here to start a fight. Just to laugh at the_green_monster.

so laugh. why you got a problem with me?
but seriously why would you want to smoke a joint rolled from a Bible page what do you think will come of that except for the fact you will probably go to hell for it.

because you combat intelligence with idiocy.

*sigh*

Barroom Heroe, you are mistaken. The Pledge of Allegiance had nothing at all to do with the original documents that started our republic.it was written in the late 1800's, and the part mentioning god wasn't inserted until the '50's, after the McCarthy debacle. Thomas Jefferson, who wrote the Constitution, was a deist, and very skeptical of the christian god. Please do not distort history.
Personally, I think the belief in any "saviour", or caring god, is akin to superstition, and no more defensible, than the beleifs of the so-called pagan norse, greeks, or romans. If you know anything about science, it is that proof rests in reproducible experiments. Can you manufacture, or even imagine, an experiment that could prove that the weird phycological concoction you profess to trust with your life, exists? I think religion is a neurosis.

I want to go to hell, all that fire, must give u a nice tan.

then i apologise. im not one for politics. i don't care to read about them. there is no real honest way to be a politician so i do not care to participate. in them. i figured that the pledge was written upon the nation's founding. pardon my ignorace on the matter.

may i suggest that you realize that a true follower of Christ isn't lead to praise a institution or religon. they are led to praise God and him alone. Religon (an institution) and God are two comepletely different things.

Religon in itself, yes. it is crazy. but its allignment isn't. if it's ultimate focus is the glorification of God, then what is wrong with it? it does not harm you. it doesn't seek your demise.

the ironic thing is, faith is something that obviously goes beyond the physical and tangible. of course there isn't a scientific thoery or principle that explains faith. you are of course entitled to your opinion. you probobly know of my standpoint on why God exsists if you have read the thread, so i will not bother repeating myself.