I'm sure you have all hearf of the baby milk scandal of the 80s. If not then please visit these sites
http://danny.oz.au/BFAG/coverup.html
http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~stu/milklink.htm
http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~stu/milk.htm
http://stephen.richards.net/Nestle_Pages/Nestle_boycott_intro.html

Or of course you are free to research it yourself.

But now there is a new ridiculous atrocity perpetrated by the self same selfish company.

Once long ago, Ethiopia was run by a Communist government (but US pressure forced them to abandon it in favour of a system more pleasing to the Great Provider), and in the course of the shift to Communism, nationalised certain factories... including one factory which is NOW (but wasn't then) owned by the Nestle company. Nestle are demanding 6 million (either � or $)compensation for lost profits. I remind you that Nestle did not own the factory at the time of it being nationalised.

Ethiopia has suffered already at the hands of Nestle. And it's people are used as almost slave labour to make chocolate in order to pay off the 3rd World debt, yet Nestle wants more!?

Ethiopia is probably the poorest nation in the world and it's government cannot afford to feed it's people as it is, without added problems caused by having to pay 6million damages to a company that has not been damaged. How many more people do you imagine will die if this law suit goes ahead, those who were not killed as babies because their mothers were tricked into feeding them baby milk with bad water, and could not feed them with their own milk (thus forcing them to rely on Nestle's baby milk for the remaining year or so - which unlike the first bit is NOT free.) Now they will die because what little food they can afford will be taken away to pay for this ridiculous damages claim.

After Nestle was pressurised by Oxfam about this, they promised to reinvest the money BACK into Ethiopia, but Ethiopia will still incur masses of legal fees which it can't afford. And in what form will this reinvestment take? More baby milk? More factories to abuse it's people?

Whilst I realise that Nestle MAY not win the money, I also realise that they may win it. So help me and promise yourself that you will not feed this greed, this oppression and this knowingly killing babies for the pursuit of money.

So I ask you, I BEG you please do not buy the following products, and help show Nestle that we don't want this;
COFFEE: Nescaf�, Nesquick, Orzoro
ANIMAL FOOD: Friskies, Buffet
MINERAL WATER: Perrier, S.Pellegrino,
PASTA: Buitoni
CANDY: After Eight, Smarties, Kit Kat, Galak, Lion, , Quality Street, Toffee.
CHOCOLATE: Nestle, Perugina,

All I ask is that you simply look at the alternative, be it Kenco, Pedigree Chum, Buxton Water, Mars Chocolate or whatever... there is no need to support this scum.


Please tell all that you meet to do the same. If we can cut into Nestle's profits then we will win.

[This message has been edited by ChuckStone (edited 01-05-2003).]

Ahahahahaha, you stupid commie, I have no respect for people like you. Quote: "If we can cut into Nestle's profits then we will win." Ha, that'll do a lot, ohhh, cutting their profits will make them want to pursue the lawsuit even more. What a company does is its business. Yes, the country is poor, the people are living in squalor, but by scaring away companies its just going to contribute to that. BTW, you commies crack me up, the pursuit of wealth is one of the most important things in life. Not the most important but still up there. I'd just give to OXFAM or UNICEF, not spread leftist bullshit. Please, go back to China.

I refuse to believe that a company as sweet as Nestle' could be implicated in anything so evil.

I have driven by the Nestle factory (located in Nestle, PA - shock of shocks) and it is in a pretty and quaint little town. Like UserX, I find it difficult to fathom that such a sweet company from such a sweet town being part of such a dispicable situation.

Chucky, your credibility for accuracy of facts is, shall I say, somewhat lacking. I can only wonder what other part/parts of the story are missing and if the story as presented is totally factual.

If you are offended by the preceeding sentences, too bad. You are the one who comprimised your credibility.

Nox

Damn It looks like I use nestle products every day: (perrier...mmmmmmmm)

"Ethiopia was run by a Communist government (but US pressure forced them to abandon it in favour of a system more pleasing to the Great Provider), "

Freedom through slavery? That sounds like 1984
Freedom is slavery
Ignorance is strength

God forbid there is a healthy, stable democracy chucky

"Ethiopia has suffered already at the hands of Nestle. "

How so?

"Ethiopia is probably the poorest nation in the world"
Not true. Although extremely poor, they have significant oil reserves

The poorest countries in the world are Tanzania and Djibouti


"Oxfam"

Don't even get me started with them. Let's not forget they were the ones buying children out of slavery, which made it profitable, which resulted in Sudanese capturing more people and forcing them as slaves.

Fist off, let's be honest. The reason Ethiopia is so goddamn poor is because of its stupid government. We ship millions in aid there every year, and the leaders just steal it and use it on themselves. In addition, these leaders promote idiotic agricultural policies and misallocate important transport resources. And, it should be noted, all of these dumbass leaders are either communists or military types who learned economics from communists. (Shiver)

I'd also love to hear how you think America forced Ethiopia to abandon communism, and more importantly, WHY. Was there some reason we would expend so much time and effort trying to subjugate a nation of starving people and militaristic idiots?

If Ethiopia deserves to win the lawsuit, they'll win the lawsuit. End of story.

And nobody's gonna give a good golly damn about you boycotting Nestle products. This is one of those stupid little stunts we all pull in our "whiny communist" phase. Notable for nostalgic reasons, but not much else.

I've never been much of a Nestle fan, but now I'm gonna go buy a king-size Crunch bar just to spite you stupid ass.

boycotts dont do much unless it's in a large scale. i doubt u'd get that sort of numbers just by posting at totse

While studying "Business Ethics" at University the Nestle example was brought up time and time again. Up there with Firestone tyres, the Bhopal disaster in India and various others not coming to my mind immediately... oh Shell was up to some dodgy stuff in Africa somewhere or another.

Look, this stuff is going on constantly, literally constantly, (to varying degrees)among just about ALL of the companies which are selling you things. And it's not their fault. It's yours for buying their products. They couldn't do these things if their consumers were even slightly interested.

Blame the consumer, not the company.

I can't believe you are supporting Nestle. What have they ever done for you, that no-one else can do for you.

i don't know if you've noticed, but the boycott campaign is on a large scale, and Totse is merely one vehicle for information.

If you don't believe me (and follow the links, the proof is there), then feel free to find out for yourselves instead of repeating what I can only call "imbecilic drivel" that Armed�Angry here has done.

quote:

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Originally posted by Armed&Angry:
Fist off, let's be honest. The reason Ethiopia is so goddamn poor is because of its stupid government. We ship millions in aid there every year, and the leaders just steal it and use it on themselves. In addition, these leaders promote idiotic agricultural policies and misallocate important transport resources. And, it should be noted, all of these dumbass leaders are either communists or military types who learned economics from communists. (Shiver)

---

Why do you lie like that? There is no need. I think you might be thinking of Zimbabwe, which does fit your strange description of Ethiopia's attitude to poverty - but that is not at all true of Ethiopia. And short of walking into Ethiopia armed with a Kalashnikov and rousing an army of stoned teenagers to overthrow the government, there is nothing we can do about that.

We can however try and stop an American company using and abusing the population for it's own selfish ends. If you don't believe it why not? It's all ther in black and white. Nestle have even acknowledged these actions (but fail to acknowledge why they are morally wrong)

quote:

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Originally posted by Armed&Angry:
If Ethiopia deserves to win the lawsuit, they'll win the lawsuit. End of story.

---

How sweet. How naive. Do you actually believe that? How old are you like 4? The world is a nasty place and there are very few lawyers in heaven. No in reality it is who can afford the best lawyers will win (see OJ Simpson). And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realise that Nestle wins on that account.

And it doesn't take a genius to realis that the reason Ethiopia is poor is because they are exploited by companies like Nestle, Gap, Nike and Mcdonalds. It would in fact require someone VERY ignorant to the outside world to not see that.

And how does my political standpoint have any credence in this matter - neither does my racial heritage ("Go back to China").

Boycotts don't do anything unless on a large scale agreed. But they do even less if you simply dismiss it on the count that not enough people are joining you. Trust me, this boycott is on a large scale, but it needs to be larger.

COME ON AMERICA. PROVE ME WRONG ABOUT YOU AND SUPPORT THIS BOYCOTT.

Boycotts are fucking retarded. As much as I believe that Nestle and other companies like it engage in these described activities and similar ones, they aren't going to stop because some British dork and his friends don't buy their products.

quote:

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Originally posted by UnclNastyFingerz:
Boycotts are fucking retarded. As much as I believe that Nestle and other companies like it engage in these described activities and similar ones, they aren't going to stop because some British dork and his friends don't buy their products.

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I tend to agree, don't boycott things to try to change anything, you will only get disappointed. I boycott nestle, as does student union shops accross this country. But I don't think it will change things in the short term. I do it because I don't want to support people (by giving them profit) that I believe are doing wrong things.

whazat

If I was fat,loud, stupid and wore a silly hat would you join? So what does it matter if I'm British you arrogant tard.

No a boycott doesn't change anything, but that's only because you and your ignorant ilk are convinced that it won't work so you don't join in. If you buy a single Nestle product, you are funding genocide. Do you want to do that?

All a boycott can do is show that we don't approve of this behaviour, and they will do anything for profit as shown. So do you think they will exploit and poison 3rd world children if it cuts into their profits?

Of course one person can't make an impact, which is why I am not going to just quietly partake in my personal boycott... it's why I tell you to join me, and it's why I tell everyone I meet (provided the topic comes up) and why I go to the chocolate stand in my local Woolworths leafleting. Come on gove me some support. By not supporting me, you are supporting them - Are you a supporter of death? It's okay saying "ooh it's very bad" but try and do something, no matter how insignificant... spread the word, do whatever you feel you have to do - but please please please help me stop them.

123Tool, I like the comment "blame the consumer", I really hope that wasn't directed at me... because it's obvious that that is my point.

quote:

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Originally posted by UnclNastyFingerz:
Boycotts are fucking retarded.

---

This one is, but the general principle is sound, and has been effective in the past.

I find it curious that you would accept life in prison (to oppose being drafted into a military that conducts distastful overseas operations, like Nestle'), but then at the same time, you think it's retarded to refrain from buying a candy bar in order to support your ideology of benevolance. Do you EVER act on your beliefs?

Sorry to do this to all of Totse, but hey as a radical lefty type I may as well set Chuck in the right direction to campaign for. I hope he doesn't come back a doom and gloomer.

ChuckStone go look at the real problems of this age we are in. The fact that oil will soon stop being able to be pumped as quickly as we need it and the entire food and economic infra structure is based around this.
http://www.oildepletion.org/roger/index.htm

And since you seem to believe that the entire western world is corrupt you might want to go here.
www.dieoff.org

So this is the reason why I am not going to get all excited about Nestle fucking over a few more people. Because there is no guarantee of civilization in 50 years time.

whazat

quote:

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Originally posted by LebaneseFighter:
"Ethiopia is probably the poorest nation in the world"
Not true. Although extremely poor, they have significant oil reserves.

---

They have no proven reserves, it's all geological speculation. They have no current production, therefore no oil revenue. They import all of their oil and gas, and they export agricultural products.

A good place to do basic research on a country is at the CIA World Factbook.

By the way, Chuck, my name is Armed&Angry, not Armed(sign for your stupid money)Angry. With that classification cleared up, let's move on to the substance (snicker) of your post.

"Why do you lie like that?" Why do you ask stupid questions like that? You don't correct me, you don't provide an example of how this assertion is incorrect, you just call it a lie and go on your merry way. The fact remains that Ethiopia is run in an incredible stupid manner - to quote P.J. O'Rourke, "like chimps at a salad bar." It's essentially divided into personal fiefdoms among eternally squabbling government officials. If this is wrong, how about you tell me how it "really" is?

It doesn't matter who has the better lawyer, so much as it matters who's deciding the case. Johnny Cochrane is a ridiculous fool who failed to prevent credible rebuttals to simple legal questions - but he won, because the jury WANTED to believe him. Similarly, in the Ethiopia case, who's calling the verdict is what counts. Is this proceeding taking place in an Ethiopian court? If so, I wouldn't worry.

If big corporations make nations poor, how come we have such a high standard of living over here in Amerika? We've got way more corporations than Ethiopia. The answer: because foreign investment CREATES prosperity. The best way to monkey-wrench such prosperity is to pursue the kind of foolishness common in Ethiopia's esteemed rulers.

And America doesn't need to prove you wrong. China, Cuba, Nicaragua, Russia, and Cambodia already did.

Funnily enough, Chucky happens to be right on this one. Leaving aside all the "poor Ethiopians can't be Communist anymore" bull, we have a company which made a $3.9bn profit in the first half of last year claiming $6 million which is far more significant to the poverty-stricken Ethopians. The factory belonged to a subsidiary of Nestle at the time.

It doesn't make sense even from an economic point of view; Nestle could potentially lose a lot more due to court action, and even consumer boycotts

The Ethiopian government offered $1.5 million, based on the current exchange rate. Nestle want $6 million, based on the exchange rate at the time of the factory nationalisation in 1975 - in other words the sum of money they are demanding now is more than the factory was ever worth.

I hope the court case costs them at least $10 million.

Boycot.... If u boycot a company it wont run out of bizness, and will find another way of revenu,and more scams, tax evasions and such before going bankrupt,

A&A, I'm gonna try to argue with you to the best of my ability without sounding like I'm siding with Chucky, since his idiocy would discredit everything I say.

Capitalism creates prosperity - lots of prosperity, for a minority of people. Our standard of living is reletively high, yet our gap between the rich and the poor is incredibly high. Higher then that of any industrial European country. There's nothing wrong with producing wealth. My critisism of militant Communism rests in the fact that it can't produce wealth. The problem with IMF capitalism is where the wealth goes. Instead of being divided amongst the workers that have produced it, the minority of owners and investors absorb an unreasable amount, creating harsh inequalities. That's why, unfortunately, Chucky's facts about Nestle are completely true.

While countries with purely socialist economies like Russia and China literally failed to function, countries with socialist leanings, like Sweden, have higher standards of living then the United States. Even Canada boasts a somewhat higher standards of living, although they have alot less millionaires. Just because communism is a failure doesn't mean capitalism is a success. In producing so much wealth, we've managed to bankrupt several third world countries, and drain billions of dollars from the people of nations where we build our factories.

PS... while you're right about Russia and China, you're wrong about Cuba and Nicaragua. The Contras did ten times as much damage to Nicaragua as the Sandinistas, and Cuba functioned perfectly until our trade embargo hit it where it hurt most. Cuba doesn't have access to it's largest potential resource, do you expect it to be rich? Throughout the 70s, and Cuba was subsidized by the USSR, they had by far the highest standard of living in the Carribean. I am a firm believer that socialism can work on such a small island.

quote:

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Originally posted by UnclNastyFingerz:
A&A, I'm gonna try to argue with you to the best of my ability without sounding like I'm siding with Chucky, since his idiocy would discredit everything I say..

---

My, my, my. Maybe there's hope for you afterall.

Nox

If the IMF were invlolved in the Nestle' deal, then that would mean that Ethiopia borrowed the money to buy the plant. But it was nationalized, probably at gunpoint.

I doubt that the IMF ever loaned them anything.

quote:

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Capitalism creates prosperity - lots of prosperity, for a minority of people.

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False. Capitalism benefits everyone.

quote:

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Our standard of living is reletively high, yet our gap between the rich and the poor is incredibly high.

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False. The gap is not so large and in any event, it is shrinking.

quote:

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Instead of being divided amongst the workers that have produced it, the minority of owners and investors absorb an unreasable amount, creating harsh inequalities.

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Wages are not determined by being involved in the production of a good. Wages are determined by the competition among workers and the technical skill needed to get the job done. If your job is to twist the cap on a tube of toothpaste, well, I'm sorry, but you can't expect to command a high wage.

quote:

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In producing so much wealth, we've managed to bankrupt several third world countries,

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Explain.

quote:

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and drain billions of dollars from the people of nations where we build our factories.

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Explain.

quote:

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I am a firm believer that socialism can work on such a small island.

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The only possible way socialism can work is in small numbers, like the old hippie communes.

Well, actually, Nukechild pretty much summed that up. By the way, Nuke, nice to see ya - it's been a while.

Chucky, take note: even the other communists disagree with your silly blatherings. I think it's time to consider a good rereading of the Communist Manifesto, or better, conversion to a rational system of governance.

Yes, the Contras fucked up Nicaragua. You'll get no argument from me there. In fact, the Contras fucked up a lot of places - Nicaragua, Honduras, South-Central L.A., and ultimately, the U.S. congress. The fact that the Contras were worse didn't make the Sandanistas good, just better.

Even if your claim of Cuba having the highest standard of living in the Caribean is true - and because I'm tired, I'll assume it is - that's still, by your own admission, a result of massive USSR subsidies. When a system needs to be constantly propped up by an influx of foreign capital, you've got a problem.

quote:

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Originally posted by NukeChild:

In producing so much wealth, we've managed to bankrupt several third world countries,

Explain.

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Have a look at argentina at the moment. The ex-poster boy for the IMF, and there now completely screwed. They sold all there oil abroad and when they started to run out of oil, there credit rating was down graded and currency collapsed. They might have been able to do better for longer if they hadn't exported there oil and used it internally, or at least it wouldn't have been a boom-bust situation.

Capitilism can create poverty,just in a different fashion to communism.


[This message has been edited by whazat (edited 01-07-2003).]

I cna't help noticing that Cuba has the best stndard of living in the Carribean now. And even you should know enough about the world to know that can't be because of subsidies from a country which hasn't existed for 10 years. And for the preceding 10 couldn't afford to subsidise their products. The "subsidies" weren't even subsidies, they took the form of a genuine full price trade agreement. Is it fair to say that the only reason my local corner shop survives is from a constant influx of capital. It's hardly constant is it?

"Boycot.... If u boycot a company it wont run out of bizness, and will find another way of revenu,and more scams, tax evasions and such before going bankrupt," - but it will stop the exploitation, and that is all I care about.

"False. Capitalism benefits everyone." - WHAT? idiot. The mere existence of capitlaism causes immense suffering, you just have to look at Ethipopia, Indonesia and the Phillipines. The only reason the Americans all seem to prosper is because they represent the minority! And fuck you if you think Americans are everybody. And the wage gap is not shrinking - Bush is damn sure to take care of that. Even giving tax breaks to the top 1% (paid for by the bottom 20%). That's just taking the piss!

quote:
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In producing so much wealth, we've managed to bankrupt several third world countries,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Explain.

I'll explain - read the links. Look at Ethiopia, Somalia, Indonesia, the Phillipines, Korea - ,much of the Middle East (okay that was Britain). Some of these countries by all rights should not be 3rd World countries. They have a wealth of oil and gold - incredible natural reserves, but the West just got there first. In fact the USA actually assisted in the genocide of hundreds of Indonesians who wanted to halt the rise of a Capitalist dictator, because that capitlaist dictator allowed American factories such as Gap and Nike to use their people as near slave labour (basically paid enough to eat and survive) on shifts that average out at a 15 hour day. Human rights inspectors would arrive and the workers had no choice but to say that they were treated well. Obviously they couldn't quit, or they would die along with the rest of their family, so they are forced to sew your shorts together so you buy them for $8.
http://www.inminds.co.uk/globalisation-in-indonesia.html

so come on, do they prosper because of Capitalism? No, and there are a lot more of them than there are of you. But if that's the price for your McDonalds and your CocaCola - I'm sure you won't mind having that hang over your heads.


[This message has been edited by ChuckStone (edited 01-07-2003).]