I don't get my news on a regular basis, but I've been catching stories (over the past month) that reference his being alive, but I thought he was still MIA. I didn't see any stories that referenced his being alive directly, or a confirmed kill. And Nox refers to him in a present tense as well.

So has Osama been spotted?

Not spotted but a while back in a recently released audio tape, the CIA thought it was him, the tape was later discredited. Until a body is produced though, it would be foolish to think he was dead or treat him as such.

There is no definitive proof one way or another.

A recent audio tape was supposedly him, but "experts" disagree on the person on the tape's identity since he uses language that is/isn't in Binnie's style, has not recorded himself on video as was his tendency (though he might have altered his appearance and wants to protect it), and no trustworthy witness has suggested he is alive.

I for one believe him dead, if only because he has not poked his head up for so long and fits the profile of a person that must make himself visible to his followers somehow.

Of course this is entirely speculation and it is very possible he's alive and in hiding. I doubt the US government would deny his capture or execuation if they had definitive proof of either, since that would give its population concrete evidence of the war on terror's progression. But that evidence may never come about, even if he has been killed.

That's what I thought, thanks.

The US might not disclose his assassination to avoid his becoming martyred, and they would not disclose his capture, if he was indeed captured and ratting out his commanders.

There is certainly good reason to keep it under wraps, to avoid the martyr/hostage taking that would follow his death/capture.

If he were dead, and the US didn't confirm or deny, then wouldn't his people come out publicly and say he was dead to make him a martyr?

We just might never know one way or another...maybe he went underwater to a cave where air was trapped and is living there with Jack the Ripper and Hitler.

I'm not saying he's with Elvis. I merely provided two plausible alternatives to your statement. And, his people would only publicise his death, if they knew of it themselves. There could be no witnesses.

i forgot the semi-colons; ;;;;;;;;.

LOL

I wasn't aiming the underwater comment at you, it was just a joke.

And we agree. It will be very hard to believe one way or another barring a DNA match. There are as many reasons for both sides to lie as well as tell the truth.

Personally, I think he's alive. I think that everyone in the US Gov would like to see him dead, but I also think that for the time being, they are making sure he stay's alive. Think about it ... In the Muslim world the leadership is one deep. One God, one Imam, one everything. When Anwar Sadat was murdered, everyone wondered who his replacement would be. Out of relative nowhere came Hosni Mubarak. In UBL's organization, you have a hierarchy, but no one knows who #2 is. The entire network responds and replies to UBL. The way to find out the network is to keep the head alive (for now). Once you have the network, then cut the whole cancer out at once.

I've been thinking about UBL's alleged Kidney Dialysis. I'm beginning to wonder if that isn't a cover story that the UBL folks created. If someone knows something specific about that, I'd be interested in hearing it.

Nox

Not Osama-- yo MAMA!

Nox, your scenario implies that the gov't knows of his whereabouts.

Yes. I do think they do. Now who are they? The military (below the SecDef level)- NO. CIA- most likely. NSA- probably. DIA- probably, but will NEVER admit it.

Nox

Nox

I find it hard to believe that SECDEF or anyone in the intelligence community knows the precise whereabouts of bin Laden, considering our willingness to utilize targeted killings to protect national security.

By the way, does anyone else think it's hilarious the way Rumsfeld pronounces bin Laden "bin Lay-den", or Bush the Elder pronounced Saddam "Sad Dumb"? As if they did't know how to pronounce the names...

They do know how. The way the Senior Bush pronounced Saddam's name, changed the meaning of the name from a Proper Noun to 'the maker of shoes'. In Arabic tradition, the closer ones gets to the ground the less the person's status.

I'm not sure what Rumsfeld's pronunciation has done to UBL's name, but I have $5 that says it has altered the meaning, and not in a positive way.

Nox

I always thought that the old man was saying, "Sodom".

I also think that this is intentional, as they sweat every little subliminal detail. And I find this behaviour in a lot of our leaders to be repulsive. the fact that they can't just sell their honest and true ideologies, and let their success stand on that.

Being a sell-out is far from a persons best performance.

NOX

In India (and I presume the Middle East), if you want to start a riot in a crowded marketplace, take your shoe off and wave it above your head...thus placing your foot above everyone else.

Or you can mortally insult someone by sitting next to them and crossing your legs so that the sole of one foot faces them...fun for all.

[This message has been edited by Vox (edited 12-07-2002).]

Also, in India, I think the phrase, "Where's the beef" is also a crowd pleaser.

The story about the soles of the feet is true in Arabic cultures. Additionally, the old thumbs up routine has a different meaning to the Arabs.

Nox

quote:

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I also think that this is intentional, as they sweat every little subliminal detail. And I find this behaviour in a lot of our leaders to be repulsive. the fact that they can't just sell their honest and true ideologies, and let their success stand on that.

Being a sell-out is far from a persons best performance.

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When leaders talk of the war on terror as a "crusade" and set the Iranian reformers back by including Iran in the "axis of evil" you realise how important the attention to detail is.

And the subtle pyschological warfare is just as important as the inspiring rhetoric and open friendly overtures to potential supporters. Casting aspersions upon an adversary can be just as effective as castigating their human rights record in winning unlikely supporters. If I was in the US government I'd have made a lot more out of the 9/11 hijackers' visits to strip clubs, for example; not the activity you'd expect from pious Muslims who were dying for the glory of Islam.

Their strategy may be to NOT allow them to be portrayed as Joe Average Human. They would be scarier that way. In other words, Satan may be down at the strip-club in spirit, but he's personally overseeing something much more evil elsewhere. I think the portrayal of these people as an enigma, works to the admin's benefit.

I wonder how many of the sleepers over here, have gone completely native.

quote:

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Originally posted by user X:
I wonder how many of the sleepers over here, have gone completely native.

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Probably all of them.

Nox

I bet it's more like 20% - 30%.