The thing people who hate America don't realize is that WE welcome you into OUR country, as long as you don't admit to blowing up things. WE welcome "tired, your poor, your huddled masses." My apartment complex has 16 units, we have: white American, black American, Indian, Saudi Muslim, Jewish, a couple from Yorkshire, England, and a Mexican couple. We look out for one another because we are all Americans. I don't agree with all American policies regarding Foreign policy, but if YOU came to America, or for that manner, Canada, we would welcome YOU and accept YOU. Can you say that about other countries right now? Our leadership may be straying, but can you blame it? Less than eight months after America voted, and chose a new government, it was attacked. I wish voters in America could be more like voters in Iraq and give one man 100% of the vote. I am not a born American, but everyone I know would welcome YOU to be a part of OUR country. The point is that in America you can bitch all you want about the government. Our First Amendment rights allow us to burn the flag, burn the president in effigy, or start a radio program called "I hate the government of th U.S." I know from experience. I used to bash the U.S. when I lived in England and in Germany, but when I came here I found that the Americans appreciate my bashing as it is the basic right assured to all Americans. I would welcome an Enlglsh muslim born in Yemen who burns 7 U.S. flags a week into my neigborhood because once you get here, you see that you are welcome, and that you are allowed to do that. Our freedoms alloow this. "My freedom to swing my fist ends where your nose begins."(Oliver Wendell Holmes)

Preach on, Reverend!

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Originally posted by neutralistic:
I would welcome an Enlglsh muslim born in Yemen who burns 7 U.S. flags a week into my neigborhood

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I would not. I would question why that person who obviously hates my country so much would want to be here.

I like the rest of your post however.

Nox

The people blowing you up are not Americans at all. They are not blowing you up becasue they want to feel welcome. They would like you to give them the freedom (Americans love that word) to live in their country without persistant American interference. If they wanted to live in America, but they want to live in Saudi Arabia... not some Westernised desert called Saudi Arabia.

I'm sure it's great to live in America, I went there once I thought it was lovely... but the reason people burn US flags is because of the way America tries to spread it's ways around the globe.

I heard that for 100 years America had no immigration laws... anyone could join. I like that, and if I had my way immigration would not exist.

-----I don't dislike what you are saying neutralistic, and I wish everyone was like you... but they're not are they? We get the fucking BNP sying you shouldn't live in Britain because we bombed their houses. Shut Sangatte, but we're not having them. I fucking hate right-wingness-----

yeah, it's funny that america blames osama or whatever when we're really the ones behind the attacks. it's the same trick marcus aurelius (i think, pls correct if wrong) used against spartacus and the roman slave rebellion. he covertly attacked his own battlements, then blamed the attack on the rebel army. it worked perfectly, the stunt eroded popular support for the rebels, and without the admiration and support of the public, the romans easily crushed the insurrection. this is the same thing happening today.

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They would like you to give them the freedom (Americans love that word) to live in their country without persistant American interference. If they wanted to live in America, but they want to live in Saudi Arabia... not some Westernised desert called Saudi Arabia.

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Your grasp of fundametalism in Islam is very sad. The leadership gets away with all their abuses because they are able to claim the supremacy and perfection of Islam. Our mere example and existence undercuts their rule, so in order for them to survive, the West is demonized as being the great Satan. All the peoples upset about their poor condition and their resentment is directed, in the state sponsored Mosques, at America and the West. This is the underlying reason for their hostility and you must not forget their whole prostelatizing convert or die attitude.

Westernized desert called Saudi Arabia? Have you no concept of how ideas and culture are spread across the globe? It is Westernized because we came their to trade, and they like it so they decided to import Western Goods. You are taking the sides of hardliners who want to close the borders and deny their people the freedom of choice. If they hated Westernization, then their would be no fucking market for our goods and therefore no profit incentive and therefore NO WESTERNIZATION.

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I heard that for 100 years America had no immigration laws... anyone could join. I like that, and if I had my way immigration would not exist.

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Are you for open or closed borders as this makes no sense? If you are for open borders, then you are advocating the free flow of ideas and products and are essentially advocating the means of Westernization.

To AnarchistX:

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yeah, it's funny that america blames osama or whatever when we're really the ones behind the attacks

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You are new here so I will give you the benefit of ignorance. You are either saying that our foreign policy is to blame, which it is in part but not in whole, which is contradicted by the underlying causes of extremism, or you are saying that we purpotrated an attack against ourselves or at least allowed it to happen. That is nothing more than conspiracy and propoganda.

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Originally posted by ChuckStone:
I'm sure it's great to live in America, I went there once I thought it was lovely...

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When?

Where?

Nox

HAH! Fool! Marcus Aurelius was emperor centuries after Spartacus was dead and buried in the cold, cold ground! I spit upon your knowledge of Roman history!

(At this point I realize what a dork I am and cry myself to sleep.)

Shut the fuck up.
America = 21st Century SS
You just like killing people to make yourselves feel bigger
That's it.
Nothing more.
You are the scum of the Universe.
I am white, Christian and in full time employment.
I still hate you.
Die in pain.
I am currently taking orders for T-shirts.
Light blue stripe
Light blue swastika
Light blue stripe
Know what I'm saying....

Certain "races" have VERY short memories.
Tempts you to say..
NO. I DON'T mean that.
But if they carry on like that...

.

?

What the hell?

What the hell indeed. However my biggest problem with america is its wretched foreign policy.

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Originally posted by MANSONITE:
What the hell indeed. However my biggest problem with america is its wretched foreign policy.

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If you were American you would have an infinitely different opinion, but I digress.

Here's the explanation of why American foreign policy is not only effective, but is also the only kind you can and should expect.

In the shortest of terms, the only two things that matter in the world are military power and economic viability. States act to protect those interests above all others, meaning if it's between morals and security, morals will ALWAYS lose out. There is no possible way to enforce global government, unless it is by conquest (and by this I mean actual soldiers in your fucking country forcing you to pay taxes to them and otherwise running your life, not this BS "oppression" all the lefties accuse the US of).

Therefore, your country will ALWAYS act to promote your interests, since they coincide with its own. America protects my interests.

If American foreign policy is so horrible, whyis the US the world economic hegemon and dominant political, military, and cultural force?

In addition, it infuses the rest of the world with money to keep it from sinking into utter and complete wretchedness, provides a haven for those who would look for a better life within its borders, and develops technology that the rest of the world can leach off of without creating anything of its own.

That's what America does for you, you pea brain.

Vox, That is the best message I have ever read on this site. Absolutely perfect! Well thought-out, which will limit the number of people who will understand it, but still great.

Look, Trojan, if you wanna criticize my government, I got no problem with that. Do it myself all the time. But where the hell do you get off criticizing the good, honest people of this nation? Would you mind, I don't know, offering some facts to back up your little rant? Or shall we just assume you're a dumbass?

Thank you, neutralistic.

I was aiming for the lowest common denominator, but your (hopefully sincere) compliment is appreciated.

Trojan, we know you are strongly anti-US but one way you could get people to listen to you is by providing them with som facts to why you hate the US so much, this way people take you more seriously, and will give you some respect.

What the politicians think is the interest of America isn't necessarily what is really in the interest of the American people. Particularly with regard to foreign policy.

Ok your a fucking moron......your saying that Our President and our government planned this attack on ourselves.....jeez how much education did you get? I know the United States has to reform some of its Foreign policys but to say our government planned these attacks is ludicrous.

Fuck Iraq and muslims !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

fuckiraq, though your name disturbs me greatly, I just wanna say that it'd be way more funny if you spelled it FuqIraq.

im with trojan, America is a country of egotistical basterds that are scared of themselves to a point they carry guns for their own bloody protection, as well you soon relize that most of the "races" that do actually hate america have been trained by the U.S themselves. Osama? he has appeared in an american movie as video fotage well before september 11th. as well leave the bloody dead DEAD we are tried already of you americans celebrating every 6 or so months. you americans need to grow you and only interfere with your selves and not the rest of the world....
also can some one assasinate Jhonnie Howard plz hes screwed or country over.

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that are scared of themselves to a point they carry guns for their own bloody protection,

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Expect the worst and plan for it, you will never be suprised then. It is also foolish to think that ones society does not contain derelicts, problem children, and a seedier element. Don't be stupid.

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as well you soon relize that most of the "races" that do actually hate america have been trained by the U.S themselves.

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Read a bit deeper into the forums and you will understand why we train distasteful people.

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Osama? he has appeared in an american movie as video fotage well before september 11th.

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What?

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as well leave the bloody dead DEAD we are tried already of you americans celebrating every 6 or so months.

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What!?

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you americans need to grow you and only interfere with your selves and not the rest of the world....

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From vauge ideas to horrible sentence structure, the hits keep on rolling. As for why we interefere, it is because it is in our, and ironically your best interests. You remind me a lot of the whinning child who curses the parent for making him take that horrid medicine and yet demands relief from his illness. The problem is a global one and cannot be viewed as solely an American problem.

idiot! people want to be left alone in their own countries! only reason there in sucha a mess is becoz america fucked them up first so they're forced to flee. and they dont welcome u. do u know how long the fukin waitinglist for immagration is? i doubt it coz if u did u wouldnt have posted this thread.

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people want to be left alone in their own countries!

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But when their country becomes a threat to America and the world, I could care less what they want.

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only reason there in sucha a mess is becoz america fucked them up first so they're forced to flee.

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Who are forced to flee from where and why is this America's fault?

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i doubt it coz if u did u wouldnt have posted this thread.

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And if I knew what you were talking about, I could do more than point out your flawed communication skills.

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and they dont welcome u. do u know how long the fukin waitinglist for immagration is?

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They don't welcome us but they are forming lines to get in. Unless you are skipping whole sentences, that statement is contradictory and makes no snese.

Hey Nuke, or Nox or Armed or anyone else for that matter,

Do you know of any forums where there are more people who argue coherently and use complete sentences and good grammar?

I like it here, but the opposition is just so undereducated sometimes there's no point in conversation...

Except Mouse, who is the best one to argue with...though she's quick to cry "Jew! Jew!Jew!" and tends to quote books with spelling mistakes in them.

�Therefore, your country will ALWAYS act to promote your interests, since they coincide with its own. America protects my interests�

harharharhar, I fart in your face!
Sorry.
But I�m tired and the above quote made me laugh, really you know that was a bit of a blunder don�t you?
Can I ask what social-class you consider yourself to fit in Vox?

Tell Leonard Peltier the governments acting in his own best interests�

�the only two things that matter in the world are military power and economic viability.�

Depends who you are I suppose.
I�d hesitantly suggest that right away there my interests diverge from those of the state, I�d far rather have happiness and liberty than a tank.
(And what the fuck is �economic viability�? I know American English is different but bloody hell!)

�There is no possible way to enforce global government, unless it is by conquest�

Which differs from any other form of government how?

�not this BS "oppression" all the lefties accuse the US of�

Not being a lefty myself I can only guess at the type of oppression they talk about.
But�

Supplying arms to the Mexican government to kill civilian supporters of a democratically delegate and democratically run guerrilla grouping whose only aim is to secure their constitutional rights?
(yes that�s democratically elected, not an oxymoron honest, and this is my current main gripe and bitching topic)

Supplying arms to Israel and then watching them be used to oppress an entire nation of people?


Napalming Vietnamese villages?

Nuclear bombs?

Biological weapons?

Propaganda?

��

Nah, I can�t really see what they�re on about neither, stupid bloody commie lefties, McCarthy RULES!

:P

�If American foreign policy is so horrible, why is the US the world economic hegemon and dominant political, military, and cultural force�

�Cos its horrible to everyone else maybe?
Or are you still looking at this from the �don�t give a shit about everyone else� capitalist attitude?
�Cos if you are don�t whinge when your close relative drops a couple of hundred floors to a grisly but entertaining death the next time something heavy with jet engines takes a detour�.

�it infuses the rest of the world with money to keep it from sinking into utter and complete wretchedness�
�Cos the whole of the US let alone the rest of the world isn�t already sunk in complete and utter wretchedness is it?
And the WTO (soon to become something with equally stupid acronyms thanks to the anti-globalisation movement) doesn�t usually end up allowing corporates to take out more than they put in does it?
And the gap between rich and poor is growing is it not?

�That's what America does for you, you pea brain�
You tell the stupid savage Vox, keep dem barbarians at the gate until such point as we might need to draft them into slavery.

p.s.
NukeChild I am SO,SO proud to be part of and know people in that �seedier element� in my opinion they work far harder and are far more honest both to themselves and others.
I�d feel safer around a bunch of skinheads than I would a bunch of gilded corporate sharks.
At least there�s solidarity and good humour there, cyniscsm,selfishness and general pessimism don�t make for a good quality of life regardless how much cash you have. In my humble, more distasteful opinion at least anyway.

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Originally posted by Thehurricane:
people want to be left alone in their own countries!

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No they don't, they want to conduct trade and receive foreign aid. The less ignorant ones want to travel and learn about other cultures.

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But I�m tired and the above quote made me laugh, really you know that was a bit of a blunder don�t you?
Can I ask what social-class you consider yourself to fit in Vox?

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I am in the top 20% (in America...I guess this translates to top 1% worldwide). I do not deny it. I will fight to defend it. I'm surprised you need to ask. As far as class is concerned, I am in the upper-middle class.

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I�d hesitantly suggest that right away there my interests diverge from those of the state, I�d far rather have happiness and liberty than a tank.
(And what the fuck is �economic viability�? I know American English is different but bloody hell!)

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If you'd like to try living in a country with no military, you're bonkers. But regardless...economic viablility is a way to say "economic strength." In other words, wealth. The only things that matter are military power and wealth. You can talk about happiness and joyjoy and friendship all you want, and I will never deny those things are a big part of my personal life, but when the government makes decisions vis a vis it's foreign policy it does not give an airborne copulation about making foreigners happy.

You think government is a tiny minority of people that controls everyone for their own benefit and lies to them on a daily basis. I say government, as a reflection of the people it governs, exhibits negative flaws such as moments of oversight. But it's main purpose is to stay in existence and provide for the benefit of its people. Most Americans, rich or poor, would agree that they would have it no other way. They would also agree that our government protects us better than any other protects its people.

Global conquest differs from American government (I can't speak for anyone else on this matter) in that the US government draws its validity from the consent of the governed. Regardless of your opinion, those Americans who make the effort to contribute to society and government believe that they are represented. With 280 million people, the government had better hope it is doing the right thing.

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Supplying arms to Israel and then watching them be used to oppress an entire nation of people?

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This belongs in another thread, but anyways...I obviously do not believe a gang of unrepresentative thugs (the PA) that inspires people to kill themselves and hundreds of women and children in the name of freedom and God is worth defending. I think that Israel has a right to exist (and so did the UN, by the way) and as long as they contribute meaningfully to world civilization (instead of sapping thanklessly...and no, American aid to Israel does not count. They have their own economy) they can defend themselves against savagery as long as it takes. I am fully behind our government's support of Israel and would defend that country as I would my own.

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Napalming Vietnamese villages?

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A very simple observation. If enemy soldiers hide in villages, they will get napalmed. Again, we can talk about this for days in another thread.

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Nuclear bombs?

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I don't see your point. Might as well condemn the inventor of the sword.

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Biological weapons?

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Ditto. Have they been used haphazardly? No.

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Propaganda?

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What is your point? Sort through it yourself. You're a big boy (or girl).

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Nah, I can�t really see what they�re on about neither, stupid bloody commie lefties, McCarthy RULES!

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Thank you. I too know that the Queen's English is different from American, but I assume double negatives are no-no in her version too. What is your point? Communist is good? Yeah, everyone in communist countries thinks so too.

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�Cos its horrible to everyone else maybe?
Or are you still looking at this from the �don�t give a shit about everyone else� capitalist attitude?
�Cos if you are don�t whinge when your close relative drops a couple of hundred floors to a grisly but entertaining death the next time something heavy with jet engines takes a detour�.

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Okay, once and for all: I have no problem with my government building a military that can defeat any other on earth. I have no problem with nuclear weapons that keep the balance of power in our favor. I have no problem with capitalism and the free market. If other countries want to pull themselves from their hole, it starts with THEM, not with me or my government. If Arabs want to continue their campaign of blame-shifting away from themselves and onto the US and Jews, so be it. I accept it. I also wholeheartedly condone and encourage their destruction through force if necessary. I am not the hypocrite here, they are.

In addition, you claim yourself to be morally superior to me yet find entertainment in the grisly deaths of innocent people. Fuck you.

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�Cos the whole of the US let alone the rest of the world isn�t already sunk in complete and utter wretchedness is it?

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No, they aren't.

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And the WTO (soon to become something with equally stupid acronyms thanks to the anti-globalisation movement) doesn�t usually end up allowing corporates to take out more than they put in does it?

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Of course they do! It's called "development," or "investment." Put in something, get more out. Very simple.

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And the gap between rich and poor is growing is it not?

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No, it isn't. At least not in this country.
http://www.census.gov/prod/2002pubs/p60-218.pdf

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You tell the stupid savage Vox, keep dem barbarians at the gate until such point as we might need to draft them into slavery.

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Couldn't have put it better myself, asshole.

[This message has been edited by Vox (edited 12-10-2002).]

My Quote:

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Expect the worst and plan for it, you will never be suprised then. It is also foolish to think that ones society does not contain derelicts, problem children, and a seedier element. Don't be stupid.

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Sisyphus on speed's Quote:

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p.s.
NukeChild I am SO,SO proud to be part of and know people in that �seedier element� in my opinion they work far harder and are far more honest both to themselves and others.
I�d feel safer around a bunch of skinheads than I would a bunch of gilded corporate sharks.
At least there�s solidarity and good humour there, cyniscsm,selfishness and general pessimism don�t make for a good quality of life regardless how much cash you have. In my humble, more distasteful opinion at least anyway.

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Derelicts = bums
Problem Children = Good old fashioned fucked up individuals
Seedier Elements = drug lords, mafia, pedophiles, rapists, and pimps (criminal element)

Are you sure that you are glad to be part of the seedier element?

your a fag,democrats suck ass