Kenya bombing.

terrorists do what they do to get attention and show they mean business. It is therefore realistic to assume that if a terrorist act is perpetrated it will soon be claimed by an organisation. Which happened in relation to the Kenyan attack.

Why the fuck do you assume that Al Queada did it? The Palestinian Liberation Army (or whatever they call themselves) owned up, yet you STILL blame Al Quaeda? Al Queada now have NEVER admitted to any of the attacks they apparently perpertrated, and NO evidence has ever been shown to suggest it was them ever. I'm beginning to think Al Queada are in fact figments of the USA's imagination. The guys in Camp X Ray were Talibans, not Al Queada, and thus far the only named members other than Bin Laden are the guys who actually flew the planes into the WTC. AQ are blamed instantly, even in Bali, where they found the culprit, who incidentally was an independant terrorist (much like the unabomber) acting totally alone, Al Queada were still blamed. No wonder they are so prolific, they don't even have to do anything to get notoreity.

What're you talking about? They've arrested numerous people as Al Queda members, and even Al Jazeera doesn't deny the existence of Al Queda.

I think AQ got the 'blame' because of the the style of the attack ie multiple targets and syncronized timing. Those are characteristic patterns of a classic AQ attack. The phrase: "If it looks like a duck ... "

Nox

If it was Al Qaeda they would definately own up to it. They have a habit of tautning their targets after an attack.

I'm not denying the thought that it could be Al Qaeda, a diversionay tactic for the Palestinian regime fessing up? I doubt it.

quote:

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Originally posted by Dion:
If it was Al Qaeda they would definately own up to it. They have a habit of tautning their targets after an attack.

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Possibly, but I'm not so sure about the reorganized AQ.

Nox

Perhaps that's why they hid behind another faction. They haven't regrouped yet, they are scattered and thus can't take any more heat. Yet they continue with their plan, stupid move on their part if it's true.

Chuck, the recent attacks probably weren't al Qaeda, but the US wants people to think the threat is still out there so they have a reason to attack countries in their war on terror, even if Al Qaeda is probably destroyed, the US will kepp on persisting Al Qaeda is still out there and more dangerous than ever and the US citizens should fear for their lives which is all BS. THE US WANTS TO EXPAND, WORLD DOMINATION IS AT HAND.

I doubt AQ are destroyed, but I also don't think that all these supposed AQ attacks in the last year are their doing. They are gonna wanna top 9-11 innit

Al Quaeda operatives, specifically Osama Bin Laden, have become the Goldstein of the war on terror. Most of them are dead. The ones that aren't are in hiding, and have no organization or resources.

The United States government has turned AQ and Osama into an image of our enemy, something that rallies the marching band to bang the drums of war harder then ever. It's always easier on the public to kick, spit at, and throw books at the familliar face then to memorize a few douzine Arabic names. AQ is basically the embodiment of all terrorism - the Goldstein of the war on terror.

Exactly, that's what Im talking about. Nice post mate.

Sigh.

Despite its losses in Afghanistan, it is folly to think that the organization as a whole is dead. It was organized to be multinational. It was also organized so that the individual cells could operate independently of the "brains." AQ is decentralized, what this means is that while a lot of the higher up, big thinkers, are dead and running scared, the troops in the field are not as hopeless as one might think. They were trained to operate on their own. As long as the cell itself still exsists terrorism is still possible. While funding may be harder to come by, we have to realize that these are very resourceful people. Timmothy McVeigh did not have millions in funding and yet he still wrecked great destruction. This groups do not need Bin Ladin to function, this is what makes them dangerous.

Wahhabism is the ideal tool for the state. The rulers can excuse their actions with a suitable Koran verse and violently repress all dissent. A problem arises since the Saudis have gone soft and instead of killing the pagans, they are selling oil to them. They are throwing lavish parties in Rio de Janiero and are known as the lovers of kafirs. The government is not extreme enough for its people or the schools that it funds.
The money that is being used to indoctrinate the worlds Muslims is instead creating a generation of violent radicals who hate the West and hate Saudi Arabia for its dealings with the west. The Saudis are now in an incredible dilemma. If they cease funding the schools, they loose the spiritual basis for their power and the excuses for their abuses, and will be overthrown. If they continue to fund the schools, they are only creating more malcontents who hate them. The Saudi solution to this problem is to continue to make overtures of peace and goodwill to the West, America, while simultaneously buying off their opponents by giving terrorists more money than they know what to do with. The days of the Saudi Princes are numbered as they will either be destroyed by their own radicals or the West for their underhanded and janus-faced dealings.

I do not think that Al Quaeda is responsible for every terrorist act in the world. But when you consider the size of the organization and the ammount of training and funding that was available to its operatives, statistically speaking, it is not a bad guess to blame them.

I find it funny that for the sake of hating America and the West, many people often end up supporting groups that are no better and more often than not, are actually worse.

nuke who says that Al qaeda is armed and dangerous? The US media.
I agree that the individuals are still out there but they probably have joined other groups and Al Qaeda has already died.

The mission statement of Al Quaeda is to "kill the infadels." If they are not already aremed, they are seeking arms. There mere existance is a danger. I don't need the media to tell me that they are dangerous, their actions and their intent prove this.

There's no proof that there was ever any AQ's in Afghanistan. The captured were Taliban's and the battle's were against the Taliban, not Al Queada. And none of them have been found guilty.

That's laughable.

quote:

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Originally posted by VeneFrigus:
What're you talking about? They've arrested numerous people as Al Queda members, and even Al Jazeera doesn't deny the existence of Al Queda.

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Commercial ad:

"Al Jazeera, brought to you by Al-Queda. Al-Queda brought to you by Osama bin laden himself!"

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There's no proof that there was ever any AQ's in Afghanistan. The captured were Taliban's and the battle's were against the Taliban, not Al Queada. And none of them have been found guilty.

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Do you think we were bombing caves in mountain sides for fun?

Jake, I don't believe Al Jazeera is funded by the Al Qaeda. They're merely a local news channel. Silly..

Dion, the US bombed caves in afhganistan to kill terrorists, but theses terrorists are already dead, the US makes it seem like they are still out there which is BS, maybe some survived and joined other groups or the afghanistani army but al Qaeda has ceased to exist.

quote:

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Originally posted by Dion:
Do you think we were bombing caves in mountain sides for fun?

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That was one reason, or the other id that you were clutching at straws. Those holes in the mountain were not proof of the existence of AQ, furthermore, even if they were in there... They would not have been killed because they were in a ruddy great mountain. Noone thought to check the mountains at all. And one more hole in your argument is that the USA always maintained that they thought it was teh Taliban in the mountian. People all too often confuse AQ with the Taliban.

quote:

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Originally posted by Blue-Rock:
al Qaeda has ceased to exist.

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That is a common argument often used by Americans and Britons becasue it makes them think that we've won! That's not true, it is just not possible. Al Quaeda is based upon zeal and pre-9/11 was a massive organistaion spanning the globe. USA only defeated the Afghanistan contigent... and for every member you kill with violent means, you increase their percieved righteousness and 10 more will jump up from his place. Al Queada is only in the beginning!

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Dion, the US bombed caves in afhganistan to kill terrorists, but theses terrorists are already dead, the US makes it seem like they are still out there which is BS, maybe some survived and joined other groups or the afghanistani army but al Qaeda has ceased to exist.

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I was just replying to Chuck's assumption that AQ wasn't there in the first place. Which as Nuke said, is laughable. I'm sure AQ has dispersed, scattered to the wind. AQ is at least smart enough not to sit within a boiling pot. Thought I have to disagree with you saying AQ has been obliterated. It's false logic. Everyone knows there are AQ cells around the world. Afghanistan seemed, for the time being, to be the center of operations. All commanders know the start to crushing your opponent is taking out it's main base. AQ is in confusion, yes, but defeated? No

quote:

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That was one reason, or the other id that you were clutching at straws. Those holes in the mountain were not proof of the existence of AQ, furthermore, even if they were in there... They would not have been killed because they were in a ruddy great mountain. Noone thought to check the mountains at all. And one more hole in your argument is that the USA always maintained that they thought it was teh Taliban in the mountian. People all too often confuse AQ with the Taliban.

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True the caves in the mountain sides weren't difinitive proof, but the countless caches of weapons were proof. Did you forget? No your next statement is odd. You say they wouldn't of been killed because they were in caves. First off, you probably think we were limited to airborne attacks. We weren't. Needless to say we have armor piercing ballistic missiles, and we had the ground troops go in and sweep the caves out, along with blowing them up from the inside. Nobody thought to check the mountains? What have you been smoking? And when the Hell did I say the Taliban was in the mountain? Lay off of the drugs. Everyone knows the difference between the Taliban, and AQ.

Taliban=oppresive regime stationed in Afghanistan. Deliberately harbored terrorists.

Al Qaeda=Terrorist group stationed around the world. Leader Osama Bin Laden.

Weird people...

Chucky,

The ball is in your court again...

AQ admitted responsibility.

It must be tough being an AQ apologist or a Fidel apologist or a Marx apologist. Here's something to consider ... quit backing loosers.

Nox

Or at least choose losers that people feel sorry for, like Carter.

When did they accept resonsibility Nox? When? PROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE IIIIIIIIIIIIT! (I love that).

"Taliban=oppresive regime stationed in Afghanistan. Deliberately harbored terrorists." Remember this one...The Taliban offered to hand over Bin Laden unconditionally, and Bush told them that the US does not negotiate with terrorists. Do you remember when that happened?

Nox, Fidel ain't lost. 40 years is a looooong time for you to keep missiong him. Russia caved, China are caving. Cuba is still as solid as a rock... when he dies maybe it will be different, but for the time being he will keep delivering his sermons in the rain and he will keep the adoration of his people. Unlike your people who can't seem to see where the real evil is. In that ludicrously hedonistic palace in Washington.

Still, AQ have not admitted responsibility to my knowledge (I'm not an Ox, you show me a news article or something I'll back down, but that's not your style is it? You prefer to make sweeping statements then disappear)

You mean besides the tape of Bin Ladin and several of his friends throwing a celebratory party and where OBL is slapped on the back by all his friends and congradualted for a job well done? He goes on to say that he never expected the both towers to actually crash. Does this ring a bell?

Anyone could say that!

That was an actual video they had on CNN. It was a tape that was confiscated when the marines were sent in.

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When did they accept resonsibility Nox? When? PROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE IIIIIIIIIIIIT! (I love that).
"Taliban=oppresive regime stationed in Afghanistan. Deliberately harbored terrorists." Remember this one...The Taliban offered to hand over Bin Laden unconditionally, and Bush told them that the US does not negotiate with terrorists. Do you remember when that happened?

Nox, Fidel ain't lost. 40 years is a looooong time for you to keep missiong him. Russia caved, China are caving. Cuba is still as solid as a rock... when he dies maybe it will be different, but for the time being he will keep delivering his sermons in the rain and he will keep the adoration of his people. Unlike your people who can't seem to see where the real evil is. In that ludicrously hedonistic palace in Washington.

Still, AQ have not admitted responsibility to my knowledge (I'm not an Ox, you show me a news article or something I'll back down, but that's not your style is it? You prefer to make sweeping statements then disappear)

---

Chuck,
Yes, they offered to hand Osama Bin Laden over. What you have to realize is the Taliban is a perfect example of a shitty regime. They do what comes naturally, and when push comes to shove.... They dodge. A clear example of this is with Sadaam. Both are behind-the-scenes people, yet they will be willing to help the cause if it threatens their future, right?

You mustn't look at the fact that they were willing to cooperate, but the fact that in the first place they allowed terrorist in their country....

They accepted responsibility when they made the tape gloating about their successes, ie attack! Don't be an ignorant fool. Tell me who else would have committed this heinous act?

China isn't caving. Actually they're prospering, and Russia within the next ten years has a chance to once again emerge as a world power.

Tell me, who, by your standards, is the real evil. You seem to think AQ isn't. So I'm curious?


I'm glad you don't take peoples word for what it is. I like that, so here's your story you so badly want-

Link

Typos, upon typos =/


[This message has been edited by Dion (edited 12-03-2002).]

I never expected both towers to fall either - did I mastermind it? The tapes prove nothing. The "conclusive evidence" was an obscure hand gesture taken to symbolise the collision. And besides, whether or not he was responsible, he has every reason to be glad of the turn of events. And the in the tape he merely said it was a great event...not a great victory for AQ. The article provided by Dion is however pretty conclusive, and I am convinced (I always did, but there was always a suspicion) but there are dozens of groups who could have done such a heinous act you ignorant fool. America is universally reviled and it would be wuicker to write up a list of people who wouldn't want to do it. It's like "Who killed Mr Burns"

Wait... AQ are evil granted, and whilst a may come-out as an apologist from time to time, I merely sympathise. Yet no amount of sympathy can excuse this kind of act where some of the dead were innocent. Yet I believe that America (not you personally, but America as a world power) is the real evil... or more precisely the people who are willing to finance dictatorships worldwide because they are willing to sell them cheap labour etc. And most of them are american, White South African, British, Australian etc.

Dion, I like your style, rather than throwing a stream of insults and claiming to be better than me with out any basis. You have produced evidence, conclusive at that... maybe if Jack Straw could do that we would support his little war plans (but there is a reason he doesn't, or when he does he has to give a few weeks notice so he can prepare his bullshit).

Not even the engineers of the building expected them to collapse.

I wouldn't of been so zealous about my point if the only evidence was an "obscure" hand gesture. The real evidence lies within Osama Bin Laden saying for himself that he was the one behind the attack. That incriminating evidence, along with intel we may never know about justified our attack. The US doesn't go into battle half-heartedly.

True there are many other organizations that want to see the fall of America. Yet there is too much evidence for you not to be convinced it was anything but AQ.

I don't sympathize with fascist terrorists. I do sympathize with the Arabs taking the heat from people venting their hostility towards AQ. Is that what you meant?

quote:

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Yet I believe that America (not you personally, but America as a world power) is the real evil... or more precisely the people who are willing to finance dictatorships worldwide because they are willing to sell them cheap labour etc. And most of them are american, White South African, British, Australian etc.

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International politics is a chess game. I suppose that's our check-mate with the world. I agree, and I'm not going to apologize becuse I've done nothing wrong.

quote:

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Originally posted by Dion:
The US doesn't go into battle half-heartedly.

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HAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!! Oh dear, you should be on stage with that one mate. And the Pope takes heroin I expect?

quote:

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Originally posted by Dion:
Yes, they offered to hand Osama Bin Laden over. What you have to realize is the Taliban is a perfect example of a shitty regime. They do what comes naturally, and when push comes to shove.... They dodge. A clear example of this is with Sadaam. Both are behind-the-scenes people, yet they will be willing to help the cause if it threatens their future, right?

---

There has only been ONE opportunity that the Taliban have ever had to cooperate with the USA. In this particular opportunity, they were cooperative. You ahve absolutley NO basis to make the above claim.
If you wanted the Taliban to hand over Bin Laden, and they did... does it matter what their motive were? The fact of the matter is that you are desperately trying to condone the unbelievable actions of your Government.
They wanted a war pure and simple. The Taliban were not ONCE given the benefit of the doubt. The response "We do not negotiate with terrorists" is ridiculous after Bush expressly stated that the USA would invade unless they handed over Bin Laden... this is actually requesting some kind of negotiation, of which the USA is not prepared to do. The Taliban were evil granted, but Bush did not say he was invading Afghanistan to topple a dicatorial regime (Which is not Fascist by the way, USA is fascist). And he did not do what he set out to do either (ie retrieve Osama Bin Laden). Afghanistan was a fuck up!!!!

And just a point... Whether or not AQ committed the 9-11 attacks is not an issue. There is not only no proof thta they committed the Bali bombing or Keny bombing, but there is evidence (albeit circumstantial) that it was not AQ, yet they are still persistantly blamed (?). And the Yemeni rocket attack a few weeks ago wa actuall proven to be committed by the CIA as a frame of AQ! I notice that's also been played down by your "independant" news groups.

[url]http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/10/07/ret.us.taliban/index.html[url]

We demanded Osama or else. They offered to try him instead or just contain. We told them to go fuck themselves. They promised to resist to the last. We started to bomb them. They wanted to give us Osama, too late.

Bush demanded the unconditional surrender of Bin Ladin. The Taliban wanted conditions; we rejected those and attacked them for harboring a terrorits fugitive. That is what happend.

Afghanistan was not a fuck-up, it was the destruction of the poster boy for radical Islam. Afghanistan was the model for an Islamic state and accordingly, should have been in good with Allah. The history of the Koran is that Allah protects his boys. The destruction of the Taliban got rid of the worlds best example of an Islamic state and delievered a crushing blow to the Supremacists attitude that they were perfection and that the fire of their faith would defeat their enemies.

quote:

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Originally posted by ChuckStone:
There is not only no proof thta they committed the Bali bombing or Keny bombing, but there is evidence (albeit circumstantial) that it was not AQ, yet they are still persistantly blamed (?).

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Hey dummy, check out the AQ website. Your cranial rectalitis is so acute that it has progressed to fecal occulitist.

I cannot figure out just what "proof" would ever be enough for you. Let us hope that Allah (in his infinite wisdom) allows you to continue to be a non-victim of UBL and company. However, should the unthinkable happen, I promise that I won't say, "I told you so".

Nox

I thought that "Al Quaeda.com" was taken down. Not sure if you are allowed to provide a link, but it would be pretty interesting to see what those crazy bastards are thinking up.

The Taliban did not mention any conditions, and they also offered the UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER weeks before the bombing started. Bush is a dangerous man. He lied about his motives in Afghanistan because if he wanted OBL, he would've taken them up on the offer. If he wanted to overthrow the Taliban, why didn't he say so. And where is the evidence that there was ever any AQ in Afghanistan in the 1st place. If there was, why haven't you caught any? And if those guys in Guantanamo Bay are guilty (of being Talibans not AQ), why are they not tried?

If I ever become a victim of UBL, I will blame the Americans... because it is their fault in their infinite stupidity that UBL has become the man we all know and love. International oppression is you fault. And UBL is doing the right thing the wrong way.

By Way of Deception

quote:

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Originally posted by ChuckStone:
If I ever become a victim of UBL, I will blame the Americans...

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Of course you will Chucky. By the way, If you are a victim, I only promised that I wouldn't say "I told you so". I didn't promise that I wouldn't smile a little.

Nox

Great post mouse, there are many other facts that link israel to sep 11.

[This message has been edited by Blue-Rock (edited 12-09-2002).]

quote:

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Afghanistan was not a fuck-up, it was the destruction of the poster boy for radical Islam. Afghanistan was the model for an Islamic state and accordingly, should have been in good with Allah. The history of the Koran is that Allah protects his boys. The destruction of the Taliban got rid of the worlds best example of an Islamic state and delievered a crushing blow to the Supremacists attitude that they were perfection and that the fire of their faith would defeat their enemies.[/b]

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False mate, the taliban regime was corrupt and evil as you say, they had a distorted image of islam, it was NOT a model for islamic states, islamic states are not supposed to run like the taliban.

Most of their fighters just joined them because they were the richest group and could provide them with with best wages, as one CNN reporter stated "Afghani fighters are easier bought than fought"

To Chuckstone:
Bush demaded OBL surrender, the Taliban refused.
http://seaburn.com/blackbooknews/september_11_opinions_from_aroun.htm Third paragraph down.
At the time, Bush had made it clear that if you were not with us, you were against us, and that is was their only chance. They chose to not surrender him, when they realized how screwed they were, they tried to negotiate, too late.

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If he wanted to overthrow the Taliban, why didn't he say so.

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Rember the part about harboring fugitives? The Taliban were, therefore, they get crushed.

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And where is the evidence that there was ever any AQ in Afghanistan in the 1st place. If there was, why haven't you caught any? And if those guys in Guantanamo Bay are guilty (of being Talibans not AQ), why are they not tried?

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I am at a loss for proper explatives, hopefull my Armed and Angry friend can help me out. I am also unaware that we were under any obligation to put POWs through a trial. Even if they were tried, it would be a closed military not a civillian tribunal, right?

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If I ever become a victim of UBL, I will blame the Americans...

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If you caught a cold, you would blame the Americans. If you did bad in school, you would blame the Americans. I am suprised that you don't claim that Mad Cow Disease is an American conspiracy to kill Europeans and protect doemstic cattle markets, or did I miss that post?

To Blue-Rock:

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it was NOT a model for islamic states, islamic states are not supposed to run like the taliban.

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It was a model Islamic state in the sense that it was run by religious scholars and its laws were based upon the Koran and hadith. There was no seperation of Church and state, while their interpretation of Koran and Hadith can and should be argued, it cannot be denied that they were trying their best to be an Islamic State and that their message of fundamentalism and extremism were heard by the shadier elements of Islam and Afghanistan was looked to as a model of THEIR ideal state.

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Most of their fighters just joined them because they were the richest group and could provide them with with best wages, as one CNN reporter stated "Afghani fighters are easier bought than fought"

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If you are willing to believe CNN, so am I. That still doesn't change anything as those fighters were used to enforce the Talibans rule. Fundamentalist Islam is not about consent and choice, it is about action and forced purity. Fighters are also different from the religious terrorists.

i get what you are syaing nuke, but anyone who follows the taliban and wahabi interpretation of islam is a dumbass.

I think the Afghani fighters were probably just fighting YOU rather than protecting them if you catch my meaning.

As one Iraqi said of Saddam Hussein recently in an interview
"He may be a dictator, but he's OUR dictator", I'd be willing to bet that the Afghans would prefer to be ruled under the Taliban (excepth the gay or female) than under the Americans - or Karsai, who is just an American puppet.

The Taliban have been around for 10 or 20 years and I'll bet most Americans had never even heard of them until 2001, so why do you care do much? It is not the business of AMerica to go around overthrowing regimes it disagrees with - That's Fascism, and if I recall correctly, you spent 4 years trying to get rid of that in the 40s.

In the pretence of trying to capture Osama Bin Laden, your nation succeeded in toppling a oppressive regime (possibly the most oppressive regime since Hitler), but HA you didn't catch any terrorists. The war is over, the POWs should now be free - their detainment constitutes war crime - as does the continued bombing campaign of Afghan towns and cities AND WEDDINGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

the Taliban's regime was not a model of Islamic states, yet it was a model of one kind of state - chosen by the Afghan people in the most democratic means possible - a revolution. So you had no right to remove that (although I would argue that the events of 2001/02 were also a revolution, so I'll appreciate that the Afghans wanted the Taliban out). But why all the lies about trying to get OBL? There was no reason to believe he hs ever been there! You can't just invade on the off-chance.

The most striking features of the WTC attack are a death toll of less 3,000 out of a potential 40,000 persons and the choice of Roshashona as the date of the attack. It seems inconsistent to choose a date when any practising Jew would be very rightly away from his job and oh my, I teach English: I really don't see how I can pass any student that scores on only 3 questions out of 40.
Given the otherwise professional planning and execution, I can only conclude they wanted to flunk on these two aspects.

And then there's the Bali discotheque bombing. I've walked that street. There are lots of places full of Americans and anybody can tell you where they are. Why pick a place full of Australians to stir up yet another hornet's nest of anger against them. Who needs more enemies than they already have?

...which is why I don't think AQ did the Bali bombing.

At the risk of being called a "conspiranoid" I suspect it was done by a pro-"War on Terrorism" group in an attempt to bring Australia to the fray. More likely though is that it was done by a local anti-Australia group, that doesn't neccessarily have to even be Muslim, let alone AQ allies. It is a fact that violent pressure groups tend to stick together even if they do not want the same results - I refer you to the alliance between the IRA and FARC.

I am 100% certain that 9-11 was not intended to target Jews. We all know why it happened and it is because of US bases on Saudi soil (anyone who claims jealousy, or says that it was an unprovoked attack is either a child or is avoiding the truth for some reason). That is not the fault of the Jews. The Jews are a seperate enemy in a seperate war such as that in Palestine.

This however is not "conspirinoia" a recent attack in Yemen involving a crude rocket launcher on a bus in a Jewish area was proven to be masterminded by the CIA designed as a framer of AQ.

I notice that has been played down somewhat

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i get what you are syaing nuke, but anyone who follows the taliban and wahabi interpretation of islam is a dumbass.

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I understand that and agree with you, but those forms of Islam are quite alluring. One of the most notable qualities of both is the supremacy attitude. They tout the perfection of Islam. We may all say: "So what." But to the common man in those countries, they finnaly have a reason to be proud of themselves, they are on the winning team. It is quite a salve to the mind to be able to look around oneself, realize that the country is shit, but be able to write-it-off as being spiritually pure and an actual benefit because one is going to heaven. The leaders use this supremacy to boost the moral of their people and to divert any criticism away from themselves. Since the country is based upon the Koran and Hadith, Allah's words, therefore whatever we are doing, we are in the right, therefore if our condition sucks, it is because of some outside influence: Jews, American, etc; hate us and are actively wishing us arm. This mentality prevents criticism of the leaders, not that you would want to anyways since most extremist groups label all dissenters as infidels who under Islamic law, are free to be killed. This problem is compunded furher by insisting upon a literal interpretation which means that anyone can interpret the Koran or hadith and apply it as they see fit. Big mistake, as not everyone has the knowledge of the history of the Koran to be able to make proper applications. The literacy of these countries is also poor, so most people would not know if their leaders were making up Koran or hadith verses. Simply, the ignorance of the texts is so high, that all sorts of abuses creep into the system. Wahhabism and the Taliban are bastardizations of Islam, yes, but they are quite alluring to the humbled Islamic masses as it allows them to have pride in themselves and convineintly place blame on others.

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I think the Afghani fighters were probably just fighting YOU rather than protecting them if you catch my meaning.

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? No, not really.

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The Taliban have been around for 10 or 20 years and I'll bet most Americans had never even heard of them until 2001, so why do you care do much? It is not the business of AMerica to go around overthrowing regimes it disagrees with - That's Fascism, and if I recall correctly, you spent 4 years trying to get rid of that in the 40s.

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Did you forget why WWII was fought?

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In the pretence of trying to capture Osama Bin Laden, your nation succeeded in toppling a oppressive regime (possibly the most oppressive regime since Hitler), but HA you didn't catch any terrorists.

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Yes we did.

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The war is over, the POWs should now be free - their detainment constitutes war crime - as does the continued bombing campaign of Afghan towns and cities AND WEDDINGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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No.

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chosen by the Afghan people in the most democratic means possible - a revolution.

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That is so funny it makes my butt hurt.

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But why all the lies about trying to get OBL? There was no reason to believe he hs ever been there! You can't just invade on the off-chance.

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Stop, please, I have hemorrhoids.

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We all know why it happened and it is because of US bases on Saudi soil.

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The argument about US bases is laughable. We are only there becuase the Saudis allow us to be, and we were invited to protect them from Iraq.

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(anyone who claims jealousy, or says that it was an unprovoked attack is either a child or is avoiding the truth for some reason)

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If you discount the other reasons, please explain why these bases are such a big deal?

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That is not the fault of the Jews. The Jews are a seperate enemy in a seperate war such as that in Palestine.

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Well, I guess I have to say congradulations as their is one more person now who doesn't believe that America is controlled by the Jews.

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This however is not "conspirinoia" a recent attack in Yemen involving a crude rocket launcher on a bus in a Jewish area was proven to be masterminded by the CIA designed as a framer of AQ.

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The only rocket attack I heard of was the one involving a predator missile destroying a car full of terrorists. I would like to see a link.

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Originally posted by NukeChild:
The only rocket attack I heard of was the one involving a predator missile destroying a car full of terrorists. I would like to see a link.

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Thank you for putting that in. I was beginning to think I was the only one who didn't get that tidbit of news.

Nox

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Originally posted by NukeChild:
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I understand that and agree with you, but those forms of Islam are quite alluring. One of the most notable qualities of both is the supremacy attitude. They tout the perfection of Islam. We may all say: "So what." But to the common man in those countries, they finnaly have a reason to be proud of themselves, they are on the winning team. It is quite a salve to the mind to be able to look around oneself, realize that the country is shit, but be able to write-it-off as being spiritually pure and an actual benefit because one is going to heaven. The leaders use this supremacy to boost the moral of their people and to divert any criticism away from themselves. Since the country is based upon the Koran and Hadith, Allah's words, therefore whatever we are doing, we are in the right, therefore if our condition sucks, it is because of some outside influence: Jews, American, etc; hate us and are actively wishing us arm. This mentality prevents criticism of the leaders, not that you would want to anyways since most extremist groups label all dissenters as infidels who under Islamic law, are free to be killed. This problem is compunded furher by insisting upon a literal interpretation which means that anyone can interpret the Koran or hadith and apply it as they see fit. Big mistake, as not everyone has the knowledge of the history of the Koran to be able to make proper applications. The literacy of these countries is also poor, so most people would not know if their leaders were making up Koran or hadith verses. Simply, the ignorance of the texts is so high, that all sorts of abuses creep into the system. Wahhabism and the Taliban are bastardizations of Islam, yes, but they are quite alluring to the humbled Islamic masses as it allows them to have pride in themselves and convineintly place blame on others.

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yes i know, but what you are saying applies only to some forms of islam, blaming others is not part of usual islam.

The taliban were unpopular except to those who they can afford to hire to fight for them, they are uneducated fools who should learn more about islam if they are seriously wanting to set up an islamic state.

They ban all modern technology and science while islam encourages you to be the most scientifically advanced in the world, one hadith that i am familiar with states :
seek science and knowledge even as far as china. (china was considered to be very far those days)

And Nuke... yes really. I know why WW2 was fought. And it had nothing to do with Fascim initially, but do you expect Hitler wouldn't have been deposed afterwards had he not done the decent thing. You dodn't catch any terrorists. And your conduct in Afghanistan does constitute warcrimes. Answer me this, how can an ill-equiped and badly outnumbered force such as the Muj win against the 2nd most powerful force in the world without winning the hearts and minds of the people? I think your arse hurts for other reasons. The Saudi Government allow you there because it is easier than pissing you off - cos you'll only accuse the King of stockpiling WMDs and raping the population and then invade and replace it with a government that does let you build bases. That is not to mean that the people want you there, and it is the people who are trying to remove you. And as a considerably greater power than Iraq, it is laughable to think they would need your help. You are there not to help them but to keep an eye on your precious oil.

"If you discount the other reasons, please explain why these bases are such a big deal?"

It is not so much there presence there that is offensive. Which it is but not to such a large extent. But it is the USA's inability to listen to reason. When al Qaeada began, they were peaceful protesters who were asking politely for their removal, but now it is more a case of them trying to gain your attention - which has taken several years of increasingly intense terrorist attacks culminating in the logical conclusion...9-11.

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And Nuke... yes really. I know why WW2 was fought. And it had nothing to do with Fascim initially,

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Simmilar to the war on terror. Initially, we were attacked, but in the effort to ensure our safety, freedom will spread.

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but do you expect Hitler wouldn't have been deposed afterwards had he not done the decent thing.

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? What decent thing? Suicide?

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You dodn't catch any terrorists.

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False.

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And your conduct in Afghanistan does constitute warcrimes.

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By your logic, executing a criminal would be considered a war crime. That term is so broad that it ceases to have meanings.

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Answer me this, how can an ill-equiped and badly outnumbered force such as the Muj win against the 2nd most powerful force in the world without winning the hearts and minds of the people?

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If you are talking about the Soviet defeat in Afghanistan, then as you said earlier, the US creates its own problems. The number 2 soviets were defeated by the Afghanis that were armed and trained by the number 1 power.

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The Saudi Government allow you there because it is easier than pissing you off - cos you'll only accuse the King of stockpiling WMDs and raping the population and then invade and replace it with a government that does let you build bases.

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Look at the news. When the Saudis refused to let us attack Iraq from our bases there, we moved to Qatar.

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And as a considerably greater power than Iraq, it is laughable to think they would need your help. You are there not to help them but to keep an eye on your precious oil.

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What is the basis for your claim. If it is post Gulf War, of course the threat is dimminished, we destroyed most of their weapons.

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It is not so much there presence there that is offensive. Which it is but not to such a large extent. But it is the USA's inability to listen to reason. When al Qaeada began, they were peaceful protesters who were asking politely for their removal, but now it is more a case of them trying to gain your attention - which has taken several years of increasingly intense terrorist attacks culminating in the logical conclusion...9-11.

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Bin Ladin was never a peaceful protester, and you have still not explained why the bases are so offensive, or why the US has to listen to reason when it is the governments choice to allow us to have bases their.

-----"Bin Ladin was never a peaceful protester"-----

Yes he was, He began his campaign with polite letters in the early 90s following the Gulf War.
-----"and you have still not explained why the bases are so offensive"-----
Saudi is the holy land to most muslims, When they are off on their Hajj, the last thing they want is to make a detour to avoid a confrontation with a drunk American shouting abuse at them "ragheads" etc.
-----"why the US has to listen to reason when it is the governments choice to allow us to have bases their"-----
Think about this, If Saudi Arabia refused, I can forsee a series of airstrikes against them too. America would do a pathetic little paddywack and then blockade Saudi then try and assasinate the leader. It's been done before so why shouldn't it happen again. It is less a case of the Saudi Government WANTING you there, but more a case of them having nop choice in the matter, because remember it is much easier to give the bully some of your sweets then have him take them all by force.

Bin Laden does not represent the Saudi government, he represents the people of Islam - a huge difference.

-----"Simmilar to the war on terror. Initially, we were attacked, but in the effort to ensure our safety, freedom will spread."-----
Do you still think it was unprovoked? IDIOT! FUCKING IDIOT!
Greedom will spread. What is your image of freedom? Is it the freedom to believe in what America wants you to believe. Is it freedom to vote - but only if America agrees with your decision. You are a poor misguided deluded fool. It's not your fault, but it is true.