I was reading for my AP european history class the other day and I came across something interesting.
It said that during and before the rennaisance italian governments had a facade of republican government, but most were really ruled by an oligarchy.
My question is whether this is possible in america or not.
In a hundred years, could the government in america be 10 guys ruling behind the scenes?
Is it happening now?

Homer

Yes, and they're Jewish.

Probably...
and agree that they are jews...
Is George Bush in that group? Or is he just a face for the public?

Bush is a puppet he does everything the rich jews want him to do.

quote:

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Originally posted by punkrawkerstonershit:
Bush is a puppet he does everything the rich jews want him to do.

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Possibly.

Who was Bill Clinton a puppet for?

Nox

Good question Nox. That I do not know. Do you?

No.

And we can continue the questioning with George H. Bush, Ronald Reagan, Jimmy Carter, et al.

When we start the game of who is the puppet for whom, the only thing we do is laps around ourselves. We can play this same game at any point in history and at any point on the globe.

Nox

Clinton is a huge jew puppet, nowadays he and his wife go around israel saying palestinians are terrorists. quote from israeli news website:

"Hillary Clinton: "Arafat has failed as a leader"
The Former First Lady and New York Senator came to Israel on a solidarity trip on February 23. In her speech in Jerusalem, she condemns Chairman Arafat for supporting and encouraging terrorism. Mrs. Clinton claims he is fully responsible for the failure of the Camp David peace talks. She also talks about the strong link between the USA and Israel, their common fights against terrorism, and about the importance of visiting Israel and supporting the Jewish state."

And don't say that it's not clinton saying these words, its practically his ideas expressed by her.

Calling terrorists terrorists makes them a jewish puppet? The sky is blue and the sun hurts my eyes when I stare at it too long. Now that you have my dissertaion, when should I expect my PHD in the mail.

Soon.

Nox

1) Let's draw a nice line here, gang, between "Jews" and "Israeli political influence in domestic politics." I'm not so hot about the Israeli political influence, but I got no problem with Jews.

2) America is indeed an oligarchy, but only because the American people are dumb enough to put those oligarchs in power and then obey their every command. Some people call this "loyalty." I call this "Stockholm Syndrome." We could all have our nice, humble, constitutional Republic back next election day, if we could simply pull our heads out of our asses.

Nuke child- the issue of the groups in Palestine being terrorists or freedom fighters is a debatable one, many people especially arabs/muslims see them as freedom fighters defending their homeland.

In America's war of independence the Americans were using terrorism as well to gain their rights and I understand why they did it as it was totally legitimate because they were fighting for their freedom. The same applies to groups in palestine fighting Israel coz peace in the middle East never was and never will be.

Clinton if anything was more of a puppet then Bush. Clinton's division of the democratic party was called the "New Democrats" which was basically the democratic values applied to corperate welfare motives. I can safely say someone pulled strings for everything's Clinton's done.

quote:

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Originally posted by Blue-Rock:
Nuke child- the issue of the groups in Palestine being terrorists or freedom fighters is a debatable one, many people especially arabs/muslims see them as freedom fighters defending their homeland.

In America's war of independence the Americans were using terrorism as well to gain their rights and I understand why they did it as it was totally legitimate because they were fighting for their freedom. The same applies to groups in palestine fighting Israel coz peace in the middle East never was and never will be.

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Right...

First, no matter what their cause is, they are using terrorist tactics. Innocent women and children are being purposely targeted in their attacks and civilian casualties are maximized. These are the people who bomb buses and walk in to homes and slaughter a woman and her two children. For this alone, they should be crushed.

Second, I think that you are confusing guerilla tactics with terrorist tactics. Although I would like to know what you consider the terrorism of the American Revolution to be.

quote:

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Originally posted by Blue-Rock:
Nuke child- the issue of the groups in Palestine being terrorists or freedom fighters is a debatable one, many people especially arabs/muslims see them as freedom fighters defending their homeland.

In America's war of independence the Americans were using terrorism as well to gain their rights and I understand why they did it as it was totally legitimate because they were fighting for their freedom. The same applies to groups in palestine fighting Israel coz peace in the middle East never was and never will be.

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I think you should take armed&angry's advice and pull your head out of your ass.
the status of palestinians as freedom fighters is debatable, however, your acertation that there was terrorism in the american revolution is bullshit. name me an example dumass.

Homer

Guerilla tactics were considered as terrorism by the british in those days. Nowadays terrorism is fighting for your freedom and your rights just because you are fighting zionists.

Look at the atrocities Israel has commited, go watch some Al-Jazeera they show you what happens, and don't tell me I watch that channel coz I don't have it (I watched it few times only), I watch BBC and CNN. So I have a balance of both views and understand what is really happening in this conflict unlike you.

This link might help you to open your mind:
and this is not even the whole story....
http://www.palestinemonitor.org/updates/israeli_army_attack_hospital.htm

and
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article691.shtml

There are many more links I could give you I will never run out because of the number of crimes Israel commit every day.

there is little intelligent counters to the assumption that israel is a bunch of assmunchers, however WHETHER OR NOT THE BRITISH CONSIDERED IT SO, OUR FOREFATHERS WERE NOT TERRORISTS!!!!!!!1
show respect, they fought for freedom so that even when their decendants fucked it up, other countries could build free states.
fuck john poindexter

Homer

HOMER, THE BRITISH CONSIDERED THEM TO BE TERRORISTS, I DONT CONSIDER ANYONE WHO IS FIGHTING FOR THEIR FREEDOM TERRORISTS , YOU ARE THE ONE WITH THE DOUBLE STANDARD THEORIES...

No Islamic nation has the right to complain about Israeli actions. Why you ask? The reason is quite simple. The Arab nations who have had to deal with violent radicals have themselves shown no restraint. When radicals took over a neighbor hood in Egypt, the Egyptian government released the tanks and violently crushed the rebels. When the Ka'aba was taken over by radicals, the Saudi government retook it by force and killed them all. When the Palestinians tried to immigrate to Jordan, tanks were sent out and they were pushed back into Palestine. Saddam used nerve gas. It is hard to be critical of Israel when those governments themselves have no qualms about using tanks or the military to crush their own rebels. This is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. THis does not excuse the actions of either side, but it is ridiculas to say that those Arab nations have some sort of moral authority that allows them to condem the Israeli actions.

Their tactics make them terrorists, not their cause. You can posses the most sublime of ideals, but if you target innocent women and children, you are terrorist scum and should be crushed.

Nuke child all those governments that you are talking about came into power because of the west, so it's your governments fault they are there in the 1st place they were not chosen by their people, go see my 1st post in "The US has put puppet regimes in the mideast..." It has a liink which you might find useful.

The people who are fighting against Israel like groups such as Hamas are fighting for their freedom, I can also point out events in history where the US has targeted women and children and the US was the aggressor (does vietname ring a bell? My lai massacce?)
The palestiniAns are DEFENDING and fighting in their own illegaly occupied land and they have the full rights to do so under international law.

These violent methods are being carried out by both sides (even though Israel has killed 3 times more palestinians) So you should look at the roots of the problem and see whose fault it is that this whole thing started and then maybe you could talk.

quote:

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Originally posted by Blue-Rock:
I can also point out events in history where the US has targeted women and children and the US was the aggressor (does vietname ring a bell? My lai massacce?)

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Correction. Women and children were not "targeted". The fact that they were women and children only meant that they added to the "body count" of combatants and not listed as separate casualties. Yes this is totally reprehensible, but a far cry from "targeting". Another point: the VC and NVA used women and children for suicide attacks and to deliver sachel charge explosives...a fact only recently admitted by the Viet Namese.

Nox

Nox

Nox you are once again trying to defend the actions of the US when they should not be defended at all, you seem to be unable to admitt the mistakes of your country in the past and present. The US should have not helped south vietnam in the first place and they should not have killing any vietnamese since most of the population wanted a communist regime. AND YOU GOT AN ASS WHOOPIN.

The lesson here is that there AREN'T any good guys. Government is itself organized coercion.

quote:

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Originally posted by Blue-Rock:
Nox you are once again trying to defend the actions of the US when they should not be defended at all, you seem to be unable to admitt the mistakes of your country in the past and present.

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False. When the US is wrong I will say so, however, in the example I pointed out the facts. And as I recall, I think I used the word reprehensible, so that somewhat negates your allegation that I am unable to admit mistakes.

Nox

quote:

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The palestiniAns are DEFENDING and fighting in their own illegaly occupied land and they have the full rights to do so under international law.
[/B]

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It is amazing that no matter how many times someone makes a rational post to correct a clear lie by another poster, such posts are simply ignored.

Point - The State of Israel was created by the United Nations, reluctantly supported by the US. The first country IIRC to recognise it was the Union of South Africa, the second the USSR.
Point - The West Bank does not and never has belonged to the so-called Palestinians. It is an occupied territory of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan.

Point - International law does not recognise any fighter who is not uniformed and part of an organised armed force as being anything other than a rebel/terrorist - They have no rights and can be shot on capture. Full Stop.

Point - There is not now and never has been a Palestinian state. Largely, international law regulaltes relations between states.

Point - Defence means looking after your own, repelling invaders. Crossing a border and blowing up a bus full of civvies and kids, is an attack - notice the difference - Attack starts with an A, Defence with a D.

Having said that, the organised government of the legitimate, democraticlly elected, internationally recognised State of Israel must answer for some, not many, but some of their actions which are clearly in violation of the spirit if not the letter of international law.

The illegitimate, unelected, corrupt, kleptomaniac and wastrel quasi government of a portion of the so called Palestinian people, is clearly, grossly and blatantly guilty of encouraging, supplying, funding and supporting a terror campaign against a legitimate government and its citizens.

There is no difference between the Taliban and the Arafat clique in terms of culpability for mass murder. They, the arafatists, must pay the same price as the Taliban.

The real difference here is that despite the surface pretence of liberality of some posters, in Israel it is Jews being killed willy nilly - on 9/11 it was US Americans - so the assumption is that the loss of some few US Americans justifies a world wide war, whilst the loss of tens of thousands of Israelis in no less than seven wars of aggression launched by the Arabs, is of lesser importance.

Yeah sure

Plutocracy- rule by the wealthy. It can also be seen as an oligarchy since rule ultimately comes down to a handful of the ultra-wealthy.
Besides jews we cannot forget their foremost servantile darklings- the Freemason bastards. Read what Eric Thomson has to say in his most recently letters at http://www.FAEM.com

I have to agree with mzilikatzi. The Israelis have every right to defend themselves and push back the Palestinians.

And since Americans and other tools are too ignorant to know or too lazy to know the truth about jews, the Palestinians have every right to blow up jews and Muslims Americans.

Goddammit, Saturn, your lowly intellect continues to amaze me. Where is the proof of this grand Zionist treachery? I'll admit that the Israel lobby has plenty of pull, but they don't make policy, and they don't behave in the way prescribed in your beloved "Protocols." The captains of the Czar's secret police must be giggling in their graves.

Now it's not like I'm discounting your theory out of hand. I'm not the type to discount things on the basis that they're "conspiracy theories." I've defended, both verbally and in print, any number of politically incorrect tales of government and corporate intrigue. I pride myself on intellectual integrity. But Saturn, I've looked at the evidence, and the fact of the matter is this: The evidence JUST ISN'T THERE.

Please, take up a real cause. You are both misguided and irritating.

Your among the proof of the Protocols of Zion. For example, you are unable to concieve of grand conspiracies. You are too small minded and simple to concieve the reality of great conspiracies. You cannot see the forest for the trees. Thats not good news for you!

The two main parties in the USA are so close in terms of popularity that in elections the winner is decided really by the side who spends most on their election campaign.

Esso paid more money into George W Bush's election campaign than any other corporation. I believe that George W Bush is directly influenced by Esso because of this. If he doesn't give Esso what they want than they won't sponsor him next term. They didn't sponsor Bush for charity, it was because they wanted something in return. Republican policies are such that they directly benefit Esso and other major oil companies who supplied sponsorship to the Bush administration. Some of which actually benefit nobody else BUT the said sponsors (invasion of Iraq, pulling out of Kyoto, abstaining from the Earth Summit). Bush however is very good at convincing the American public into thinking that there is actually a legitimate reasoning behind some of them (but perhaps the Americans are just easily led...i don't know) when there isn't. There is no good reason behind invading Iraq, it is backed up by lies and exaggerations. Leaving the Kyoto agreement was reasoned by "Global Warming does not neccessarily exist, and we don't know it's our fault" Which the majority of you actually believe!? I can't honestly believe that any of you took that bullshit in but you did. And what is there to lose by appearing in Johannesburg? You may lose credibility if you don't (and you certainly did), but Bush is simply scared America will be exposed as a pointless waster of precious resources, and the most significant threat to peace EVER!

My point is, that while there may not be a proper oligarchy in the USA in that the rich have legitimate power. But they do have the power of influencing the President and congress etc. Which is not conspiranoia... It is very easy to prove (although only circumstantial, but a lot of circumstantial evidence is all we will ever have. And there is no evidence AT ALL to support an opposite argument)

quote:

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Originally posted by ChuckStone:
The two main parties in the USA are so close in terms of popularity that in elections the winner is decided really by the side who spends most on their election campaign.

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Chucky,

You will never know how gratified I am to have a 16-year-old Brit who is a total expert on Cuba and communism explain the American electoral process to me. I find your vast repertoire of the nuances of our political system to be the ideal to which I, an avowed American politico, aspire. Pretty please with sugar, enlighten as to how I too my acquire your sage wisdom that sees not only beyond your years, but beyond that which you have personally experienced.

Nox

quote:

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Originally posted by SATURNROCKETX:
Your among the proof of the Protocols of Zion. For example, you are unable to concieve of grand conspiracies. You are too small minded and simple to concieve the reality of great conspiracies. You cannot see the forest for the trees. Thats not good news for you!

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Whoa, whoa, whoa. A person truly interested in a real debate on the subject would at least offer some kind of evidence for their position. You, however, have decided to respond instead with illusory proclamations about how I am, by virtue of disagreeing with you, in on the Big Jew Conspiracy. I can't see the forest for the trees, and yet you make no actual mention of these "trees," or how they manage to add up into a "forest" of zionist plotting.

Enlighten me if you can, Nazi. You're full of bullshit, and I'm calling it. Make a real argument, or shut the fuck up.

quote:

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Originally posted by mzilikatzi:

Point - The State of Israel was created by the United Nations, reluctantly supported by the US. The first country IIRC to recognise it was the Union of South Africa, the second the USSR.
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point- The UN created two states, an Arab state and a Palestinian state side by side.

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Point - The West Bank does not and never has belonged to the so-called Palestinians. It is an occupied territory of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan.
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The kingdom of Jordan? Is that why it's not pat of the Jordanian map? and anyway most jordanians are palestinians who have escaped Israeli tyranny.

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Point - International law does not recognise any fighter who is not uniformed and part of an organised armed force as being anything other than a rebel/terrorist - They have no rights and can be shot on capture. Full Stop.
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International law allows people to defend their own land. International law hasn't been followed by the US and Israel in many ways of human rights violations.

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Point - There is not now and never has been a Palestinian state. Largely, international law regulaltes relations between states.
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Palestine belonged to the Arabs part of the ottoman emipire, then Illegal jewish migrations and british help allowed the jews to settle on ARAB land breaking international law.

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Point - Defence means looking after your own, repelling invaders. Crossing a border and blowing up a bus full of civvies and kids, is an attack - notice the difference - Attack starts with an A, Defence with a D.
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defence n 1 resistance against attack. 2 something that provides such resistance.
It seems to me that defence applies to the palestinians only here. Since they are defending themselves against zionist attack and invastion. GO HAMAS...

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Having said that, the organised government of the legitimate, democraticlly elected, internationally recognised State of Israel must answer for some, not many, but some of their actions which are clearly in violation of the spirit if not the letter of international law.
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Let me add to the descriptions of the Israeli government: evil, greedy, sly, power hungry, racist, murderous... and the list goes on.

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The illegitimate, unelected, corrupt, kleptomaniac and wastrel quasi government of a portion of the so called Palestinian people, is clearly, grossly and blatantly guilty of encouraging, supplying, funding and supporting a terror campaign against a legitimate government and its citizens.
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Man, you watch way too much CNN and too much Israeli TV, go watch some other channels to broaden your mind. THE PALESTINIANS ARE THE VICTIMS HERE, THEY GOT THEIR LAND STOLEN FROM THEM, ISRAEL HAS NOT WITHDRAWN FROM THE OCCUPIED AREAS AS THE MANY AGREEMENTS SAID THEY HAD TO LIKE OSLO AGREEMENTS SO THEY ARE BREAKING INTERNATIONAL TREATIES. DO YOU TRULY EXPECT THE PALESTINIANS TO WAIT FOREVER FOR THEIR FREEDOM? NO

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There is no difference between the Taliban and the Arafat clique in terms of culpability for mass murder. They, the arafatists, must pay the same price as the Taliban.
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I seem to see the Israeli government as the Taliban and their military as Al Qaeda just because they are recognised doesn't mean that they can go aruond terroriziing palestinians.

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The real difference here is that despite the surface pretence of liberality of some posters, in Israel it is Jews being killed willy nilly - on 9/11 it was US Americans - so the assumption is that the loss of some few US Americans justifies a world wide war, whilst the loss of tens of thousands of Israelis in no less than seven wars of aggression launched by the Arabs, is of lesser importance.

Yeah sure

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SEPTEMBER 11 does not justify a worldwide war the worldwide world starting is because the US government wants oil and so is using US emotions from the horrors of SEP 11 to gain support from their people calling it a war on terrorism. And by the way if you have not noticed that Israel has killed 3 times more palestinians than Israelis killed in the Intifada, so shame on you and your Zionist(racist) thoughts. LONG LIVE THE INTIFADA.

Sorry guys if my posts look messy but I dont know how to make the lines above the quotes so can u tell me? THX.

Blue rock, my admitted bias toward Israel, and particularly, my admiration for her achievements, no more makes me a zionist or racist than does your equally open and no doubt deeply felt support for the Palestinians.

For the record, I despise any political grouping that advocates the rights of one group over others. Zionism is one of them, so you can take it as read that I have no time for fanatical zionists, or Bush Baptists or Holy rollers or Neo Nazis or any of the other political trailer trash out there.

M

[This message has been edited by mzilikatzi (edited 11-28-2002).]

quote:

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Originally posted by Blue-Rock:
Sorry guys if my posts look messy but I dont know how to make the lines above the quotes so can u tell me? THX.

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Just don't make them as long. All you're doing is separating ideas. Use five or six lines and let it go at that.

Nox

quote:

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Originally posted by Armed&Angry:
Whoa, whoa, whoa. A person truly interested in a real debate on the subject would at least offer some kind of evidence for their position. You, however, have decided to respond instead with illusory proclamations about how I am, by virtue of disagreeing with you, in on the Big Jew Conspiracy. I can't see the forest for the trees, and yet you make no actual mention of these "trees," or how they manage to add up into a "forest" of zionist plotting.

Enlighten me if you can, Nazi. You're full of bullshit, and I'm calling it. Make a real argument, or shut the fuck up.

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The EVIDENCE is EVERYTHING. There is so much evidence you have to look for where it ISNT, and that isn't easy. There are few exceptions to the P.O.Z., find me some!
Btw, the trees really do dislike you.

Oh, for the love of... fine, let's just assume that I'm an utterly ridiculous buffoon who can't see the big jew conspiracy. Please, indulge me. Give me some examples.

The complete lack of evidence is the ultimate sign that the conspiracy is working. You have to remember, the Jews are tricky devils.

Oh, how convenient. The conspiracy is SO POWERFUL that there's NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER!!!! Gee whiz, I'm convinced.

Glad to know you've accepted the truth and joined our cause. After the innitiantion, you will recieve the special hat and learn our handshake, it's really cool.

LOLLOL. FUNNY POSTS NUKE.
LOL.

Hold up, need clarification. Are we all being sarcastic here, or what? I can never tell.

I was being sarcastic, but I can teach you a cool handshake if you want.

Here is one bit of evidence, since I do not have the motivation to help anyone out too much anymore, because everyone must learn to fish and not just beg.

How good are you with percentages? You know that jews say they are 3 percent of the population (its not true except the jews say its true so lets pretend they are telling the truth).
Grab some magazines. Count the people with last names ending with "berg" or "stein" or "inski", and first names like Paul and David and Jerry and Murray, etc. These are jewish names. See how many are in magazines, even though they are only three percent of the population. Then check TV and movie credits and newspapers. Do you think these media outlets do NOT influence people? Then consider how much jews influence people, and look at the sort of shit these media outlets promote- racial HYBRIDS (black/white, asian/white, asian/black, etc), "hispanics", abortion, feminism, war, HOMOSEXUALITY. Etc. Then consider what effect these promotions are having on America and what kind of inhabitants America now has.

Saturn, that is ridiculous. Of course the media has huge influence. But just because a lot of journalists are named Paul doesn't mean the Jews control it. I can think of dozens of Pauls offhand who are not Jewish.

Back to the original topic...

Politically the United States is very much an oligopoly. Consider the people who become senators, congressmen, or other highly elected officials. They always have connections: family members who have served before them. You won't see any elected officials making way the same way Lincoln did. Just a simple Illinois kid who lived in a cabin becoming president. They all get in based on who they know. While I respect GWB, this is clearly one of the reasons he obtained political power.

LOL, Saturn's method of spotting Jews makes me Jewish. I'm pretty sure an awful lot of goyim have first names like David and Paul.

Khakis has got it right on. (Although I will mention, just in passing, that even "Honest Abe" rode to power partly on the strength of his connections. He was, if nothing else, a consumate politician.)

Alexander Cockburn estimates that no more than 7000 people wield actual power in this country, and even that number sounds a bit high.

In any case, I'm ALWAYS willing to learn a neat new handshake.